Imitation is...

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The Virginian said:
You seem to believe that this lies outside the parameters of what constitutes "unacceptable" copying of a design. Probably most folks here would agree.

Why? Did Loveless specifically authorize or approve of these particular folks making his design? Is that required? Or did he make a public pronouncement inviting anyone to use his designs? I don't know - maybe you do. And if he did, does that then define the boundary: can't use a knife design without a dedication to the public by the original designer.
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Yes he did tell me (he lived 20 minutes away) he likes that people are making his designs because the cost of his cause them to be put in a collection and not used while other makers can get his designs in more hands that actually will put them to use.

Also he made his video and books teaching how to make his knives step by step so other could make them as well.

So while I understand where you are coming from, Bob liked that others used his design.
 
The Virginian said:
What is the difference between the dozens or more knifemakers who make "direct" copies of New York Specials, Junior Bears, Archer Chutes, Stiff Horns . . . and whatever it is that you are talking about when you reference "one artist or craftsman to attempt to make a direct copy of another's work?"
TIA.
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AVigil said:
Probably should start with another example since Bob freely encouraged people to make his designs and gave away his patterns and techniques.
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Exactly AVigil, and that's the difference. It's widely known that Bob Loveless welcomed other makers to make his designs. That's not the case with many other makers, especially when it comes to copying without asking.
 
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The Virginian expressed it well.

Why can't Loveless' attitude be the standard? Bo Randall started by copying a Scagel.

It's a matter of what is good for humanity, not the individual. That's why imitation is the sincerest form of...
 
commie
:)
 
This thread even with all it's drift has proved one thing for sure. There is Black and then there is White and there will always be someone to champion each color………beyond that I don't feel we've accomplished much.

Paul
 
very difficult to accomplish anything useful on internet forums, beyond interesting conversations :)
 
AVigil said:
Whenever I see threads like this I think of Michael Walker. I remember when he came out with the liner lock and now it is such a common design in knives people use it without a mention of the man who invented it.
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Hello Ladies and Gent's.
Imitation is by far the most sincere form of Flattery! It is nice though when people ask first!;)

Adam,
I have never met Michael Walker but I've seem many of his liner locks and many, many other liner lock systems on current knives and Military knives & survival tools dating back to the 1930's-40's.

So? I've heard of this before, Walker says he invented the liner Lock. It there some aspect of the application he modified or?? I am interested in hearing the reasons of this claim?
 
Oh well here goes I don't see alot of issue when someone makes a knife with a simulier shape but when the knife is a complete copy there is a word for it. that would be a "XEROX"

Cliff
 
Cliff Parker said:
Oh well here goes I don't see alot of issue when someone makes a knife with a simulier shape but when the knife is a complete copy there is a word for it. that would be a "XEROX"

Cliff
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Yep old buddy. Two things here... Copying a design or style is one thing... Copying a specific knife is another.

This is good entertainment. :D
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
Hello Ladies and Gent's.
Imitation is by far the most sincere form of Flattery! It is nice though when people ask first!;)

Adam,
I have never met Michael Walker but I've seem many of his liner locks and many, many other liner lock systems on current knives and Military knives & survival tools dating back to the 1930's-40's.

So? I've heard of this before, Walker says he invented the liner Lock. It there some aspect of the application he modified or?? I am interested in hearing the reasons of this claim?
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Blade has a good article in the Feb issue on it. http://www.blademag.com/blog/steve-shackleford-blog/new-blade-hits-newsstands-today-5
 
Originally Posted by Rhinoknives1

Hello Ladies and Gent's.
Imitation is by far the most sincere form of Flattery! It is nice though when people ask first!

Adam,
I have never met Michael Walker but I've seem many of his liner locks and many, many other liner lock systems on current knives and Military knives & survival tools dating back to the 1930's-40's.

So? I've heard of this before, Walker says he invented the liner Lock. It there some aspect of the application he modified or?? I am interested in hearing the reasons of this claim?
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This is from Wikipedea, so I don't know if it is correct:

Liner lock knives have been around since the late 19th century. The Cattaraugus liner locking patent, 825,093 was issued on July 3, 1906. After 1923 when the patent expired, it was used by other manufacturers such as in the common military and lineman's issue two-blade electrician’s knife; the Camillus TL-29 for the locking screwdriver-stripper blade, until 2007 when the Camillus Cutlery Company went out of business.

Walker refined and popularized the design, eventually securing a trademark for the name "Linerlock." Walker's improvement to the design was to facilitate true one handed opening of the knife. This was accomplished by removing the weak back spring and adding a heat-treated stop pin to align the blade in the open position. Walker added a detent ball to hold the blade in the closed position using the same spring force from the liner.
 
AVigil said:
Blade has a good article in the Feb issue on it. http://www.blademag.com/blog/steve-shackleford-blog/new-blade-hits-newsstands-today-5
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Thanks to both people that provided an answer.

Adam,
We may have met? I was at the Loveless shop back in 97-98 when I was a noob for a few of the Saturday open door invitations he would give through Cal Knives.
He sure did tell anyone that wanted, too copy his knives. The funny thing he said was, " I can't afford my own knives anymore." LOL
 
Some observations:

I enjoy reading 'interesting' conversations. It gives me a larger perspective and potentially some education. I got both in this thread.

The Virginian and brownshoe aren't provacatuers, who cause dissension and touble. Only if you let them. I like hearing their Devil's Advocate points of view just to see how limited I may be thinking, or how extreme they may be. I choose my own decisions based upon lots of sources.

Thread ownership is tantamount to style: no one person owns it, but they may have originated it. LOL!

In the article in Blade (not in the link) Michael Walker gave a VERY clear explanation of what HE developed in the Liner Lock, and how much it differed from 'original' designs. He's had to answer to this for years and years. If you can borrow a copy, please do. It's a thread worthy subject on it's own.

I can point out lots of aspects developed in my knife photography which are commonplace now, right down to the text font. However, I can also say I've studied others before me and currently to be influenced by them. It's always going to happen.

The one thing keeping this thread somewhat civil is how grossly amatuerish the 'copy' is. However, this isn't the first time this knife has been a tribute. A year ago Haley Derosiers did a fantastic job recreating a fixed blade version and, because we all admire her and want to see her shine, it was met with accolades (from what I read.). I loved it. Maybe this gent saw that thread and took it as a 'go'. I dunno.

Feel free to disagree: It's the internet. :D

Coop
 
I love well made knives and I think if some has the ability to make a well made knife.
Then why would they need to copy someone else's work down to the last detail?

Just my thoughts.
 
SharpByCoop said:
Some observations:

I enjoy reading 'interesting' conversations. It gives me a larger perspective and potentially some education. I got both in this thread.

The Virginian and brownshoe aren't provacatuers, who cause dissension and touble. Only if you let them. I like hearing their Devil's Advocate points of view just to see how limited I may be thinking, or how extreme they may be. I choose my own decisions based upon lots of sources.

Thread ownership is tantamount to style: no one person owns it, but they may have originated it. LOL!

In the article in Blade (not in the link) Michael Walker gave a VERY clear explanation of what HE developed in the Liner Lock, and how much it differed from 'original' designs. He's had to answer to this for years and years. If you can borrow a copy, please do. It's a thread worthy subject on it's own.

I can point out lots of aspects developed in my knife photography which are commonplace now, right down to the text font. However, I can also say I've studied others before me and currently to be influenced by them. It's always going to happen.

The one thing keeping this thread somewhat civil is how grossly amatuerish the 'copy' is. However, this isn't the first time this knife has been a tribute. A year ago Haley Derosiers did a fantastic job recreating a fixed blade version and, because we all admire her and want to see her shine, it was met with accolades (from what I read.). I loved it. Maybe this gent saw that thread and took it as a 'go'. I dunno.

Feel free to disagree: It's the internet. :D

Coop
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To varying degrees we almost all start on the backs of the giants before us. Anyone that say's or thinks his/her knives/photography "anything" is truly completely original, is plain flat blind to all that they have seen and used in their lives or just has to big of an ego to admit it.
 
I think we can root to why one is making a knife.
I started because i would have liked to own knives i couldn't find or afford...and i make mine and give as gifts to relatives/friends....passion for the craft draws me and designin is big part of it.
Others sell what's people's buying...sometimes a benchmark is what they'r searching for. To each one it's own, unless it is falsification. Are your marks registered, protected some way?
 
Coop not disagreeing just making my own statement, in this example I don't know if she asked to use the design, I do think she put her own elements into it in the details so as to not be a "Copy" and gave credit if I remember correctly To Mr Hanson for the design. That in my mind differintiates her knife as a tribute and not a malicious copy only to be profited from. I am making assumptions on the maker and his hanson styled(copied) knife that Lorien originally posted but with out that persons input as to the intentions that is where I see it. Very interesting conversation all around, I personally struggle with this as a maker with a not yet distinctive style of my own. I want to use design elements I like from others as inspiration and incorperate them into my knives but do not want to be a copyist of another contemporary maker. Chris
SharpByCoop said:
Some observations:

IThe one thing keeping this thread somewhat civil is how grossly amatuerish the 'copy' is. However, this isn't the first time this knife has been a tribute. A year ago Haley Derosiers did a fantastic job recreating a fixed blade version and, because we all admire her and want to see her shine, it was met with accolades (from what I read.). I loved it. Maybe this gent saw that thread and took it as a 'go'. I dunno.

Feel free to disagree: It's the internet. :D

Coop
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