Imitation is...

[brownshoe]

I am not a "devil's advocate" I truly believe there is nothing wrong with the subject knives. Copying is the way human's learn from the time we are born. It's as natural as breathing. In some artisan pursuits, the novice starts by directly copying the master. I believe that copying becomes wrong only when a copy is mis-represented as an original. So if the original knife had a Sunfish Forge sunfish, then it would be a dastardly deed

 

[Clem Kadiddlehopper]

Dave just posted this Loveless knife, looks like Bob copied Scagel's handle design.......

 

[sheathmaker]

I am not a "devil's advocate" I truly believe there is nothing wrong with the subject knives. Copying is the way human's learn from the time we are born. It's as natural as breathing. In some artisan pursuits, the novice starts by directly copying the master. I believe that copying becomes wrong only when a copy is mis-represented as an original. So if the original knife had a Sunfish Forge sunfish, then it would be a dastardly deed

Well said, and I agree with you.

Paul

 

[Cliff Parker]

I am not a "devil's advocate" I truly believe there is nothing wrong with the subject knives. Copying is the way human's learn from the time we are born. It's as natural as breathing. In some artisan pursuits, the novice starts by directly copying the master. I believe that copying becomes wrong only when a copy is mis-represented as an original. So if the original knife had a Sunfish Forge sunfish, then it would be a dastardly deed

Question I can somewhat agree when it's a novice to a point but do ya feel the same when it's like the 2 pieces Kevin posted? No novice there.

Cliff

 

[Don Hanson III]

Mighty good question Cliff!

 

[tvandeventer]

Up and coming ABS JS and MS candidates are often told to find a maker that they really admire, then copy their work. When I first heard this I was appalled. As a scientist I would consider that plagiarism and never acceptable, even litigious. But go to the Louve in Paris and what do you see? Chairs and easels set up in front of the Mona Lisa; students *copying* Leonardo's work. What they are doing is developing their skills and will later develop their own skills and styles. My best selling utility hunters greatly resemble Jerry Fisk's Sendero, but have major differences. I guarantee that Fisk has not lost a single penny as a result of my knives. Same goes for Don. I just hope that my Fisk knock-offs are better than that Hanson knock-off! :-(

Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS

 

[Lorien]

Question I can somewhat agree when it's a novice to a point but do ya feel the same when it's like the 2 pieces Kevin posted? No novice there.

Cliff

got the back story on that one, didn't sound very good and is a perfect case study as to why I put this thread together to begin with.

 

[The Amazing Virginian]

I am not a "devil's advocate" I truly believe there is nothing wrong with the subject knives. Copying is the way human's learn from the time we are born. It's as natural as breathing. In some artisan pursuits, the novice starts by directly copying the master. I believe that copying becomes wrong only when a copy is mis-represented as an original. So if the original knife had a Sunfish Forge sunfish, then it would be a dastardly deed

This.

Well said, and I agree with you.

Paul

And this.

Question I can somewhat agree when it's a novice to a point but do ya feel the same when it's like the 2 pieces Kevin posted? No novice there.

Cliff

What difference does that make?

got the back story on that one, didn't sound very good and is a perfect case study as to why I put this thread together to begin with.

Personally, I think this statement disparages Ron via innuendo and hearsay. If you are going to do that, in fairness then I think that you should post the whole story so everyone can form their own opinions from the facts, or post nothing at all.

 

[sheathmaker]

Ken, I know for a fact if he did post the story it would still be hearsay, because I feel sure he heard it (if he did) from the same source I did. That makes anything either of us say in regard to the "back story" pure hearsay. I did not take away the same conclusion that Lorien did.

I agree with the last statement in your previous post completely.

 

[Lorien]

while we're giving each other advice on what's ok to post and what's not ok to post, I'll leave it to your imagination as to what my advice to you might be, Ken

 

[Cliff Parker]

Virginian,

You asked what difference it makes. I feel a novice hasn't found his own nitch yet and is just wanting to make knives and sees something he likes so he tries to make one and that is ok to me to a point meaning I don't feel he should copy every last bump notch and handle material. But I just don't understand when a maker with so much talent tries to duplicate someone else's work . I will say I don't see a problem if it was king tut's dagger or historical pieces.
I am not trying to piss no one off here I just found this tread very interesting.

All the best
Cliff

 

[betzner]

Personally, I think this statement disparages Ron via innuendo and hearsay. If you are going to do that, in fairness then I think that you should post the whole story so everyone can form their own opinions from the facts, or post nothing at all.

I agree 100% with this, Ken.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Here's an unauthorized "COPY" of my Kyle Royer Ring Guard Bowie:

Kevin, you stepped right up to the line with that one. Which came first…..the chicken or the egg?? What is the the time line on those two pieces?? Who copied who?
Ron has demonstrated time and time again with his innovations that he doesn't need to copy anyone. I have watched Kyle progress nearly from his beginning. His progress and talent is nothing short of amazing. He will be a super star we all will remember……………but his earlier works came very close to being copies of John White and Don Hanson, both of whom played a large role in helping him along, therefore making his work reflect that. Both John and Don gave that help freely and helped push Kyle along and now it is was it is….Kyle is great!

I also notice that the sheath which Kyle made himself bears more than a slight resemblance to something I would have and have done right down to the take down tool papoose. I am flattered that someone of Kyle's ability chose to do that, and I encourage him to do it more.

Now I don't even know who made the knife that is the original subject of this thread but I bet it's not his first knife and it probably won't be his last and as long as he doesn't call it a Don Hanson I don't see anything except a guy saying through his work,………"I hope one day to be as good as Hanson"

We all had to start someplace and under the direct influence of someone or many we admire.

Paul

Paul, Kyle made my Ring Guard Bowie in Oct 2009 per my concept and initial design drawing. See a related BF thread addressing such:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/666657-Need-a-little-HELP-on-a-Design-Please

Ron made the Ring Guard Bowie shown above in Mid 2013 for a client.

got the back story on that one, didn't sound very good and is a perfect case study as to why I put this thread together to begin with.

Personally, I think this statement disparages Ron via innuendo and hearsay. If you are going to do that, in fairness then I think that you should post the whole story so everyone can form their own opinions from the facts, or post nothing at all.

Ken, Ron has seen this thread. If he feels he's been discredited here, he can certainly step forward.

 

[sheathmaker]

Kevin, I'm glad you posted the photos again. It gives one another chance to micro compare the two knives for differences.

The ring is integral on one of your guards, on Ron's knife there is only one guard and the ring is removable.

You can't tell it from the photos, but the frame for the handle is very different knife to knife.

Your handle has two pins, Ron's has twelve

The flutes on the shells Your knife on the butt has 11 and Ron's knife has 24. Can't get an accurate count on yours on the guard shell, but Ron's has 15, yours has less.

The damascus pattern is sufficiently different on each knife to eliminate an exact copy claim although that would be true with almost any other damascus as well unless it came from the exact same billet.

The file work on the handle liners is very different as well from knife to knife.

On a dark night and on a fast horse a quick glance might support "copy" but close inspection does not.

All this coupled with the fact that Ron was making his style ring guard waaay before either of these knives were made.

Since you don't make your living designing knives, then maybe, just ,maybe it could be about time to let this one go. Huh?

Paul

 

[Rhinoknives1]

All I know is that Ring knives and scalloped shell guards and butt caps have been around since the 13-1400's or longer.

Are they similar? Yes! Is one a copy of the other? No idea?

I would like to add that they are both truly works of art that I couldn't ever dream of ever making myself.

 

[Jon Brand]

I don't think a copy has to be exact. I think if it looks like a copy off the bat it can be a copy.. Just like the copy of the Josh Smith push knife I posted. It looks too similar and I would bet my knife collection the maker closely studied Josh's knife.

These two knives are a slightly different shape but COME ON!

 

[jjtjr]

Paul,

I agree 100% with your above post.

Originally Posted by Kevin Jones
Here's an unauthorized "COPY" of my Kyle Royer Ring Guard Bowie:

Originally Posted by Kevin Jones
Paul, Kyle made my Ring Guard Bowie in Oct 2009 per my concept and initial design drawing. See a related BF thread addressing such:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...-Design-Please

Ron made the Ring Guard Bowie shown above in Mid 2013 for a client.

Originally Posted by Kevin Jones
Ken, Ron has seen this thread. If he feels he's been discredited here, he can certainly step forward.

Kevin,

I agree with you that both knives are very similar, Paul has stated the differences above. Though both knives are similar, I would not call Ron's version a copy. I like both knives.

I read the original thread on this knife and while I agree that the concept and original drawing was yours, you had the knife drawn as a coffin handle.

In many cases, the knives that I have ordered from a maker have been my ideas, and I then worked with the maker on various changes in the design.

In my opinion the design of your knife is by Kyle, who also made the knife using your input.

I have frequently seen very similar designs from well known knife makers, I assume that if one maker had a problem with another maker, that it would be between the two makers.

Jim

 

[Kevin Jones]

Paul let's discuss the differences you and Ron point out:

The ring is integral on one of your guards, on Ron's knife there is only one guard and the ring is removable.

Incorrect Paul, as you can clearly see in the photo below that Ron's has a ring guard and a separate shell guard just as Kyle's does. I do applaud Ron for the cool sheath carry strap for the extra guard. His only original idea.

You can't tell it from the photos, but the frame for the handle is very different knife to knife.

Based on the inaccuracy of your first difference, I would need to see how the frame is different.

Your handle has two pins, Ron's has twelve

That's the only 'substantial' difference I concede too.

The flutes on the shells Your knife on the butt has 11 and Ron's knife has 24. Can't get an accurate count on yours on the guard shell, but Ron's has 15, yours has less.

Now that's picking nits.

The damascus pattern is sufficiently different on each knife to eliminate an exact copy claim although that would be true with almost any other damascus as well unless it came from the exact same billet.

Sufficiently different? I would say pretty close for one maker duplicating another's billet without their input.

I would like to know how long it took him to find a piece of mammoth that matches that closely.

The file work on the handle liners is very different as well from knife to knife.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Paul,
I agree 100% with your above post.

Kevin,

I agree with you that both knives are very similar, Paul has stated the differences above. Though both knives are similar, I would not call Ron's version a copy. I like both knives.

I read the original thread on this knife and while I agree that the concept and original drawing was yours, you had the knife drawn as a coffin handle.
In many cases, the knives that I have ordered from a maker have been my ideas, and I then worked with the maker on various changes in the design.
In my opinion the design of your knife is by Kyle, who also made the knife using your input.
I have frequently seen very similar designs from well known knife makers, I assume that if one maker had a problem with another maker, that it would be between the two makers.

Jim

Jim, I don't have an issue with Ron copying my design, as the thread you referenced purpose was my asking for design ideas.
Many forum members contributed initially and Kyle and I refined the design.

My issue is with Ron copying the knife without asking Kyle.

 

[brownshoe]

So what?

The only thing lost in this copy is whatever ego boost and street cred the owner gets for owning an absolutely unique piece. I bet the resale value of the "original" went up.

Well the other loss is the copier who obviously has great execution skills, but is either not talented enough when it comes to design, or too much in love with money to follow his own muse.


You want to have some good discussion on copies of customs, try taking on the story of the crawford lock