it wasn't true. i did post at hoodep's threads only after he disappeared, while still

[craytab]

wow, you are so wrong, if you are going to post as much as you do, please know what you are talking about...you also forgot the other definitions of transaction

Full Definition of TRANSACTION
a : something transacted; especially : an exchange or transfer of goods, services, or funds

I love when people just use one section of something to try and prove a point ;P and once again, the postal insurance has absolutely nothing to do with whether it was a gift or a sale, only what the declared value of the item is (yes i know it's more complicated than that)

Quote whatever definitions you want. It really is irrelevant. The buyer is not going to get his money back and the seller, at worst, will only see ramifications here.

Oh, and who bought the insurance? The seller. That is a fact. It cannot be argued. The buyer cannot claim the insurance because he didn't buy it. End of story on the insurance.

This is really getting pointless. Nothing we argue about will bring the buyer his money back. The seller has no financial or legal obligation to give it back.

 

[JR88FAN]

people on here have a lot of strong opinions (which is good) on who should take responsibility for the transaction going bad. only on a private forum like this would the buyer be held responsible if the item gets "lost" in the mail. ebay, amazon, cabelas, etc. take full responsibility of what they ship out. i believe individuals should to (get rid of disclaimers). if you don't feel comfortable shipping to someone or somewhere, well, don't. as far as insurance, that is the sellers responsibility and set up to protect the seller. i don't like that the buyer had to purchase the insurance. shady deal as i see it.

It's all very simple. If you don't like the terms, don't buy the knife.

If the seller seems 'shady' don't buy the knife.

If the terms don't work in your country, don't buy the knife.

If you know that it's illegal and has a better then average chance of getting 'lost' don't buy the knife.

If you still want to buy the knife after all of that, then take the responsibility when things go wrong.

Rocket science this is not.....

 

[JR88FAN]

Quote whatever definitions you want. It really is irrelevant. The buyer is not going to get his money back and the seller, at worst, will only see ramifications here.

Oh, and who bought the insurance? The seller. That is a fact. It cannot be argued. The buyer cannot claim the insurance because he didn't buy it. End of story on the insurance.

This is really getting pointless. Nothing we argue about will bring the buyer his money back. The seller has no financial or legal obligation to give it back.

I just want to add. No moral obligation either, cause that side of this is really being pushed way too hard.

 

[craytab]

people on here have a lot of strong opinions (which is good) on who should take responsibility for the transaction going bad. only on a private forum like this would the buyer be held responsible if the item gets "lost" in the mail. ebay, amazon, cabelas, etc. take full responsibility of what they ship out. i believe individuals should to (get rid of disclaimers). if you don't feel comfortable shipping to someone or somewhere, well, don't. as far as insurance, that is the sellers responsibility and set up to protect the seller. i don't like that the buyer had to purchase the insurance. shady deal as i see it.

So you want bladeforums to regulate the exchange the way major retailers do? Good luck with that argument. It has been made. Might as well also ask that BFC enforce paypal's policies. Not gonna happen.

If a transaction is conducted properly the insurance is on the seller. This transaction was agreed upon by the buyer. It was shaddy. The seller did buy the insurance but was under no obligation to pay out to the buy because the transaction was shaddy. BFC can't hold the hands of everyone who wants to buy and sell knives on here. There is a sucker born every minute. Many members and mods on here try to warn people. Unfortunately when it comes to a thread in the GB&U it is far too late.

 

[SaintlyBrees]

It's all very simple. If you don't like the terms, don't buy the knife.

If the seller seems 'shady' don't buy the knife.

If the terms don't work in your country, don't buy the knife.

If you know that it's illegal and has a better then average chance of getting 'lost' don't buy the knife.

If you still want to buy the knife after all of that, then take the responsibility when things go wrong.

Rocket science this is not.....

It just doesn't get simpler than that.

 

[JR88FAN]

So you want bladeforums to regulate the exchange the way major retailers do? Good luck with that argument. It has been made. Might as well also ask that BFC enforce paypal's policies. Not gonna happen.

If a transaction is conducted properly the insurance is on the seller. This transaction was agreed upon by the buyer. It was shaddy. The seller did buy the insurance but was under no obligation to pay out to the buy because the transaction was shaddy. BFC can't hold the hands of everyone who wants to buy and sell knives on here. There is a sucker born every minute. Many members and mods on here try to warn people. Unfortunately when it comes to a thread in the GB&U it is far too late.

Cray, what did the seller do that was 'Shady' ??

Besides not being versed in Russian law, and postal system issues....

 

[choombak]

Accepting laid out terms prior to completion of a sale or "deal" is about as close to a binding contract as you are going to get in any kind of internet forum sale. In my opinion agreeing to the terms when they are right there on the sale thread is akin to a handshake. When you shake someone's hand and make a deal, that's it. The deal is exactly as it was agreed to, no more, and no less.

Also, how did he wash his hands of the situation? He filed an insurance claim and it was denied. What other option is there? By now that item is long gone and there is no getting it back. If the insurance refuses to pay on the claim what can be done?

If insurance refuses to pay, the seller should pay it. Since everyone agrees insurance is to protect the seller, why pass the buck to the buyer when insurance refuses?

This is a classic case of hiding behind disclaimers and not owning responsibility, when things go south. And since everyone holds the buyer guilty (disclaimers, PayPal gift, and what not) how do we even know the insurance was actually denied, and the seller isn't keeping the money? Of course there is no point in such questions, since it quickly degrades to mudslinging...

From the facts laid out by both buyer and seller, I am of the firm opinion the buyer should be refunded in full by the seller.

 

[DB.Cooper]

people on here have a lot of strong opinions (which is good) on who should take responsibility for the transaction going bad. only on a private forum like this would the buyer be held responsible if the item gets "lost" in the mail. ebay, amazon, cabelas, etc. take full responsibility of what they ship out. i believe individuals should to (get rid of disclaimers). if you don't feel comfortable shipping to someone or somewhere, well, don't. as far as insurance, that is the sellers responsibility and set up to protect the seller. i don't like that the buyer had to purchase the insurance. shady deal as i see it.

But this isn't ebay, amazon, or cabelas. This is individual sales from individual sellers, many of whom are not selling as a business. That's why knives on the exchange are typically cheaper than what you can get from the aforementioned businesses.

 

[JR88FAN]

If insurance refuses to pay, the seller should pay it. Since everyone agrees insurance is to protect the seller, why pass the buck to the buyer when insurance refuses?

This is a classic case of hiding behind disclaimers and not owning responsibility, when things go south. And since everyone holds the buyer guilty (disclaimers, PayPal gift, and what not) how do we even know the insurance was actually denied, and the seller isn't keeping the money? Of course there is no point in such questions, since it quickly degrades to mudslinging...

From the facts laid out by both buyer and seller, I am of the firm opinion the buyer should be refunded in full by the buyer.

'Hiding behind disclaimers'

That's what people do when they sell stuff on an open forum to people they don't know.
It's called protecting yourself, and it works both ways.

Ask BF to change the rules.

No disclaimers.
You must sell to anyone, anywhere.
No matter what happens the seller pays out.

You list the first knife....

 

[DB.Cooper]

If insurance refuses to pay, the seller should pay it. Since everyone agrees insurance is to protect the seller, why pass the buck to the buyer when insurance refuses?

This is a classic case of hiding behind disclaimers and not owning responsibility, when things go south. And since everyone holds the buyer guilty (disclaimers, PayPal gift, and what not) how do we even know the insurance was actually denied, and the seller isn't keeping the money? Of course there is no point in such questions, since it quickly degrades to mudslinging...

From the facts laid out by both buyer and seller, I am of the firm opinion the buyer should be refunded in full by the buyer.

So the seller should resign himself to having donated a $1,000 knife, and give back the money some eight or nine months after the fact? I'm sorry, but that's way beyond any kind of buyers remorse or return policy I've ever heard of, especially since it was due to circumstances beyond his control. There were terms laid out and agreed to prior to the ending of that listing. We don't know how it was paid for, but assuming it was paid for by goods and services this is still a matter of tricky customs, and the buyer having agreed to assume all risks and fees for an international sale as per the terms of the sale itself.

Most insurances will not cover liquid assets being seized by customs. What reason is there to believe that he never tried to claim the insurance?

 

[Karda]

So the seller should resign himself to having donated a $1,000 knife, and give back the money some eight or nine months after the fact? I'm sorry, but that's way beyond any kind of buyers remorse or return policy I've ever heard of, especially since it was due to circumstances beyond his control. There were terms laid out and agreed to prior to the ending of that listing. We don't know how it was paid for, but assuming it was paid for by goods and services this is still a matter of tricky customs, and the buyer having agreed to assume all risks and fees for an international sale as per the terms of the sale itself.

Most insurances will not cover liquid assets being seized by customs. What reason is there to believe that he never tried to claim the insurance?

What reason is there to believe that insurance was even purchased or a claim for insurance made? There is also no proof from the seller.

 

[DB.Cooper]

What reason is there to believe that insurance was even purchased or a claim for insurance made? There is also no proof from the seller.

The reason we have is that his story appears to jive. Nothing about it seems to be inconsistent. His sale thread included exactly what he claims it did. I mean, it sounds an awful lot like you're bringing the guy's integrity into question here. I feel like the next question is going to be "what proof do we have that he even sent a knife in that box?"

I tend to think someone with 167 positive feedback score, and 0 negative feedback scores would do what he says he's going to do in a transaction, and those are just the people who felt the need to leave feedback after the transactions. Are you really going to sit there and insinuate that someone with a proven track record is double dealing and scamming in any fashion here?

 

[Karda]

The reason we have is that his story appears to jive. Nothing about it seems to be inconsistent. His sale thread included exactly what he claims it did. I mean, it sounds an awful lot like you're bringing the guy's integrity into question here. I feel like the next question is going to be "what proof do we have that he even sent a knife in that box?"

I tend to think someone with 167 positive feedback score, and 0 negative feedback scores would do what he says he's going to do in a transaction, and those are just the people who felt the need to leave feedback after the transactions. Are you really going to sit there and insinuate that someone with a proven track record is double dealing and scamming in any fashion here?

All I'm saying is just what you all have been saying about the buyer. Lack of proof.

 

[Krissig12]

It's all very simple. If you don't like the terms, don't buy the knife.

If the seller seems 'shady' don't buy the knife.

If the terms don't work in your country, don't buy the knife.

If you know that it's illegal and has a better then average chance of getting 'lost' don't buy the knife.

If you still want to buy the knife after all of that, then take the responsibility when things go wrong.

Rocket science this is not.....

This should be posted at the top of this forum:thumbup:

 

[DB.Cooper]

All I'm saying is just what you all have been saying about the buyer. Lack of proof.

What we do know is that hoodep has done at least 167 transactions and not a single person has left him a negative feedback. With all the picky buyers on this forum to have gotten no negative feedback would indicate he either provides good customer service and clearly concerns himself with the happiness of the buyer. I mean, just look at this part of the forum. We have diatribes about a lack of proper packaging, people losing their minds about blue marker and $15 knives being wrong, and we also have a slew of "well he didn't ship it on the day he said he would so now I'm leaving him negative feedback"s. Why after that kind of track record would someone suddenly decide to go shady on someone?

We may not have evidence in the physical form, but I think we can draw a pretty good conclusion as to whether or not the seller in question would put the insurance on if asked and paid to do so, as well as file the claim when things went awry if that's what the seller claims.

 

[Karda]

What we do know is that hoodep has done at least 167 transactions and not a single person has left him a negative feedback. With all the picky buyers on this forum to have gotten no negative feedback would indicate he either provides good customer service and clearly concerns himself with the happiness of the buyer. I mean, just look at this part of the forum. We have diatribes about a lack of proper packaging, people losing their minds about blue marker and $15 knives being wrong, and we also have a slew of "well he didn't ship it on the day he said he would so now I'm leaving him negative feedback"s. Why after that kind of track record would someone suddenly decide to go shady on someone?

We may not have evidence in the physical form, but I think we can draw a pretty good conclusion as to whether or not the seller in question would put the insurance on if asked and paid to do so, as well as file the claim when things went awry if that's what the seller claims.

There are also plenty of transactions here where wrongful negative feedback is left or no feed back is left for both negative and positive transactions.One should not place all their trust or draw erroneous conclusions from the feedback system.
What we actually do know about this particular transaction is that proof or dialog in this forum from either party has not been forthcoming.

 

[GuestWho101]

I find this entire thread quite humorous....... and consider some of the statements to be hypocritical. It's easy to point the finger and say who is or isn't at fault. Of course that being until you get the short end of the stick.

These so called "disclaimers" seem to effect more than few stand-up members train of thought. And by that, I mean integrity. The stipulation that if anything was to go wrong that nothing can or will be done, because the recipient isn't in the U.S. is downright despicable. I really cannot fathom how any responsible person of this beautiful, respectful, loving, and caring hobby we all share....... not feel resentment towards such actions. I for one have a hard time with the thought of shipping internationally. Not because I'm bias or hold the U.S. brethren/sistren to a higher standard than that of the internationally ones. But because I have a conciseness and cannot knowingly ship something to someone and tell them that once it leaves my hand....... "Sorry, but you're on your own." That's not how things should work, and last time I checked....... the deal isn't done, until "both" parties are happy.

I know what you're saying....... but he/she accepted the terms. Well if that was the case, then why does the seller primarily (almost always, and only) gets off scot-free during (U.S. to International) sales, versus (U.S. to U.S.) sales?!?! Because I've seen more times than a few on the exchange where a seller has stated, "Disclaimers of being free of responsibility once the package is shipped." But the comments that followed about such practices here in the G/B/U threads....... were pure laughter and they can't be serious comments. Followed by, "How did you pay?" "If by PayPal Goods, you're fine." "A deal isn't complete until both parties are happy." No matter the "disclaimers". But I guess that only applies to U.S. sales, right??? Let's face it....... right is right, and wrong is wrong. There is no in-between....... at least in my opinion there isn't.

Also, to add....... I've seen a sale gone wrong here in the G/B/U where the buyer did agree to accept the "disclaimers" given by the seller. Only to go back on his word and open a dispute through PayPal for a full refund....... once his package went awry. So who's wrong in this instance....... the seller with the "disclaimers", or the buyer who accepted the terms only to go back on his word once he didn't receive what he paid for???

 

[DB.Cooper]

I find this entire thread quite humorous....... and consider some of the statements to be hypocritical. It's easy to point the finger and say who is or isn't at fault. Of course that being until you get the short end of the stick.

These so called "disclaimers" seem to effect more than few stand-up members train of thought. And by that, I mean integrity. The stipulation that if anything was to go wrong that nothing can or will be done, because the recipient isn't in the U.S. is downright despicable. I really cannot fathom how any responsible person of this beautiful, respectful, loving, and caring hobby we all share....... not feel resentment towards such actions. I for one have a hard time with the thought of shipping internationally. Not because I'm bias or hold the U.S. brethren/sistren to a higher standard than that of the internationally ones. But because I have a conciseness and cannot knowingly ship something to someone and tell them that once it leaves my hand....... "Sorry, but you're on your own." That's not how things should work, and last time I checked....... the deal isn't done, until "both" parties are happy.

I know what you're saying....... but he/she accepted the terms. Well if that was the case, then why does the seller primarily (almost always, and only) gets off scot-free during (U.S. to International) sales, versus (U.S. to U.S.) sales?!?! Because I've seen more times than a few on the exchange where a seller has stated, "Disclaimers of being free of responsibility once the package is shipped." But the comments that followed about such practices here in the G/B/U threads....... were pure laughter and they can't be serious comments. Followed by, "How did you pay?" "If by PayPal Goods, you're fine." "A deal isn't complete until both parties are happy." No matter the "disclaimers". But I guess that only applies to U.S. sales, right??? Let's face it....... right is right, and wrong is wrong. There is no in-between....... at least in my opinion there isn't.

Also, to add....... I've seen a sale gone wrong here in the G/B/U where the buyer did agree to accept the "disclaimers" given by the seller. Only to go back on his word and open a dispute through PayPal for a full refund....... once his package went awry. So who's wrong in this instance....... the seller with the "disclaimers", or the buyer who accepted the terms only to go back on his word once he didn't receive what he paid for???

Nobody forced the buyer to agree to those terms, or to purchase the item in the first place. Obviously the buyer knew the risks being from the country. The issue in comparing shipping woes between US to US transactions and this one is that customs does not become involved at any time. There are far fewer steps involved, far less scrutiny by the people handling the package, and far more regulated consistency when dealing with only one entity. You bring it to the post office/UPS store/drop box/etc etc etc and from there it generally stays within that carrier's "system". But when shipping to another country, even a neighboring one you could have as many as three or more different carriers/authorities who all put hands on the package.

Also, usually those "no returns and all responsibility leaves my hands when the package does" are people sending something other than what was paid for or some other such scam.

 

[STAINLESS90]

people on here have a lot of strong opinions (which is good) on who should take responsibility for the transaction going bad. only on a private forum like this would the buyer be held responsible if the item gets "lost" in the mail. ebay, amazon, cabelas, etc. take full responsibility of what they ship out. i believe individuals should to (get rid of disclaimers). if you don't feel comfortable shipping to someone or somewhere, well, don't. as far as insurance, that is the sellers responsibility and set up to protect the seller. i don't like that the buyer had to purchase the insurance. shady deal as i see it.

13. Shipping - International Orders. Prior to placing an international order (defined as outside the United States of America), you must contact us at the information listed under the “contact us” section of the Website. There are numerous export and import restrictions regarding tactical and outdoor Products. For a list of these restrictions and to see what international shipping is available, please visit the SHIPPING PAGE section of the Website (and scroll to the bottom and read our "International Shipping" guidelines). International purchasers assume all risk of loss, theft, customs seizures, clearance, duties, levies, fees, taxes, storage charges, broker fees, and the like associated with international shipments (the foregoing collectively, “International Shipping Events”), and you agree that Blade HQ shall not be held liable for any International Shipping Events.

Directly from Blade HQ's terms and conditions

Customs Issues:
International orders are shipped at the customer's risk. By placing an international order, the customer assumes all risk of confiscation en route. If customs should confiscate or return the merchandise to us, the customer is still responsible for all shipping charges including return shipping charges.

This ones from KnifeCenter.

Two major retailer both with similar clauses so in essence your wrong for the most part. Many retailers have a legal disclaimer stating the buyer is responsible for knowing their local laws.

 

[bonky]

Exactly how else should the seller ensure that goods get to the target destination? Short of putting it in his luggage and personally flying to Russia and having the buyer meet him at the airport, I honestly don't see how he can make sure the item reaches the buyer when customs decides to confiscate it? He filed the insurance claim, and it was denied. This was a deal done with full disclosure ahead of time. In the very sale thread it specifies that international shipping would only be agreed to if the buyer agreed to assume all risks involved with such a venture. It's neither the buyer nor the seller's fault that the item in question got grabbed in customs, but that certainly doesn't entitle the buyer to a full refund because the buyer agreed to assume all the risks. If the plane crashed into the ocean and the package was lost at sea, if a mail carrier or customs snatched it, if it spontaneously combusted, if it fell off a truck somewhere, all of these potential risks were assumed and agreed to by the buyer.

Can you argue that the seller probably knew the knife wouldn't get there? I suppose you could argue that, but international shipping is always tricky. Customs are complicated and vary from country to country just like knife and gun laws do from state to state in the USA. Should he have sent it out if he even thought it might not get there? What kind of a question is this, really? Any time you send something through the mail, whether it's to another country, another state, or to someone 4 blocks over from you, there is a chance it might not arrive. Using that logic, none of us should ever buy, sell, trade, exchange, or give away anything here because there is always a chance the item might not arrive for any number of reasons.

Unfortunately the buyer is out some money. Sometimes in life you just have to nod your head and accept that things don't always work out. But let's not start acting like the seller just decided to stop caring the moment he got the funds. That knife still got sent, still got insured, and an insurance claim was still filed when it was revealed the item didn't make it through customs.

Very well put.

+1