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All For Sale threads must have a pic showing the knife being sold with written date listed, your username & Bladeforums or BFC to prevent photo harvesting from elsewhere - scammers hate this one trick! The rules for The Exchange can be found here. Please read and follow them. Stop using Paypal Friends & Family and follow our best practices to prevent getting ripped off or having a bad deal.
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The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
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it wasn't true. i did post at hoodep's threads only after he disappeared, while still
- Thread starter morda
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Perhaps you should look up the word "gift". Here, I'll do it for you, as well as transaction:
Transaction:
: a business deal : an occurrence in which goods, services, or money are passed from one person, account, etc., to another
: the act or process of doing business with another person, company, etc. : the act or process of transacting business
Gift:
: a notable capacity, talent, or endowment
: something voluntarily transferred by one person to another without compensation
: the act, right, or power of giving
Now, if the money was paid through paypal gift, there was no transaction. End of story. The only possible ramifications for the seller would be bad rep here, which some would say he has gotten anyway even if it was paid through goods.
Further, If it was not a transaction (IE a gift) the buyer has no right to the insurance collected. Again, a BS move by the seller but technically not wrong. It will get him bad rep here though.
Please see the above for a description of how insurance relates to a gift payment vs a goods payment. If it was a gift payment, the buyer is under no obligation enforceable by the authorities or the backing financial institution to refund any money. It may make him a DB here and get some sort of infraction or banishment but in real world there is nothing more to be done. That is why we always say don't use gift.
And more to your point of how he could have point, we have no idea how this transaction was conducted. That was my original point. If the buyer can't even comment on the basic information on what happened, why should we be pounding our chests on one side or the other of this problem.
From what I understand this definition of gift is strictly limited to PayPal, and PayPal wasn't the insurer. Come to think of it, would the insurance company even ask him how he was paid? When I claim car insurance, the insurance company requires proof of insurance, and not original purchase receipts.
Okay, this is all completely hypothetical at this point because again, we have no idea how the buyer paid. For the sake of this argument let us assume he used gift.
Who bought the insurance? The seller. The buyer only gave him money for insurance through a gift payment. The buyer has no right to that insurance money. What is he going to do, go to the insurer and file a claim? They will ask for his proof that he bought insurance which he will not have. Only the seller has proof of insurance. Only seller is technically entitled to that insurance money.
Not saying it is right. This is just how it is when you use paypal gift. You let yourself get taken advantage of. Then you throw in the time period, they guy being in Russia, and poor communication (language barrier, multiple accounts, trolling seller in other threads) and this becomes a real mess. BFC can take whatever action they want against the seller but nothing will get the buyers money back.
I think Rev summed it up very well earlier. Go look at his post in this thread and in the original thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1264192-buyer-betrayed-by-hoodep-nickname-user
That the seller refuses the refund BECAUSE the insurance refused to pay up is what I object to and consider sneaky behavior. As you rightly said, the fight between insurance company and seller has nothing to do with the buyer (actually it has - the buyer has paid for the insurance, but that aside).
When I insure goods, I am responsible all the way till they are safe with the buyer. Any mess up, and I refund the buyer in full and deal with the insurance later on my own accord irrespective of the insurance outcome. Nobody has to share my point of view, but that's exactly I look at this whole situation (I can certainly see the seller doesn't agree, but then I now know who to avoid for any future deals on bladeforums).
Ah again, if he paid gift like in the example, the buyer didn't pay for the insurance. Rather he gifted the seller money so he could insure his sold and shipped gifted item.
Right. I would rather miss a sale than do a deal like this one. This is why I only sell in the US. I did one deal with a guy in Canada who I had done business with before but it was expensive and nerve racking.
This is why using paypal goods is so important. It replicates what your point of view is. The obligation of insurance and delivery is on the seller. If something goes wrong the buyer is refunded and the seller then deals with the insurance. Even though this is well known around here we still see threads where people knowingly use gift, get screwed, and then come here to complain about it later. You also see a ton of ads in the exchange with "net to me" which is code for "I will accept gift payment" which for me is code for "I could screw you".
That answers a ton of questions.....
I feel like I am beating a dead horse here, but there needs be some accountability on the part of buyers for the deals they make and the situations they put themselves in.
If you agree to terms, such as 'PP gift' or 'international at buyers risk' you need to suck it up when something goes wrong.
The seller did nothing wrong. He protected himself from the disaster that can be shipping a knife to Russia. The buyer did nothing wrong. He agreed to take on that risk.
This is not at all complicated.
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It should be the beginning and end of the issue. The wording that was agreed to even included the words "all risk". Not some risk, not everything except insurance, all risk. The seller probably shouldn't have made the deal at all, but he did contingent on the buyer assuming all risk. The buyer agreed. Should be end of story.
Insurance, gift vs goods, etc all should be irrelevant at this point. Had the sale been domestic, the seller would have paid all fees and accepted all risk (see the sales thread) but was only willing to ship international if the seller assumed the risks involved.
I mean, just think about it. Someone offers to buy a knife under certain conditions. Then, when things don't go his way looks for a loophole to get out from under the deal. Just not right. Had the buyer not agreed, there would have been no deal at all. Those terms are reasonable for an international sale and the buyer had the option to agree, or not agree, to a very clearly worded deal. Now some are trying to hold the seller to a higher level of responsibility than he signed up for. The seller was very clear under what conditions he would sell. It isn't like he tried to pull something over on the buyer. He was crystal clear. It is the buyer who is trying to change the terms of this deal.
Remember - this is an international deal. Few, if any, consumer rights apply in this case. The deal is simply what the buyer and seller agreed to - buyer assumes "all risk". Nothing more complicated than that.
Agreed, however there is nothing more the seller can do to help in this matter.
As I said before. The buyer excepted the risks involved, and sadly he has to live with consequences of a bad postal system with zero transparency....
As far as insurance claims go, it was denied for a reason. I will always place the onus on the BUYER to know his countries laws. Some people want to take a chance, and that's fine, but assume the risk....
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wow, you are so wrong, if you are going to post as much as you do, please know what you are talking about...you also forgot the other definitions of transaction
Full Definition of TRANSACTION
a : something transacted; especially : an exchange or transfer of goods, services, or funds
I love when people just use one section of something to try and prove a point ;P and once again, the postal insurance has absolutely nothing to do with whether it was a gift or a sale, only what the declared value of the item is (yes i know it's more complicated than that)
As a seller you can ship anything anywhere you like.
People ship knives to Russia all the time.
You ever ship anything to Canada?
I can almost guarantee you that if it was a folder, and the pivot was not cranked down, it was prohibited by Customs law.
Did you know that Benchmade knives with an axis lock are illegal in Canada, yet you can buy one at any knife store here?
Here's where the fun starts. Canadian law, and how it is enforced are two very different things.
Long explanation, and I am not getting into it.
The point is, no seller can know all of this for every country. The buyer should be a big enough boy/girl to understand the risks, whether grey legal area's or a postal system that has issues with theft, and make a decision they are comfortable with. That includes the sellers terms...
Nobody forces these terms on the buyer, he excepted them knowing how his own country operates.
I understand the whole transaction thing here but there is one point you are not getting.buyer assumes responsibility if transaction goes south so there fore no transaction is needed to be made no matter how manny times you post the definition of transaction it doesnt matter.the buyer was supposed to find out if it can go threw customs and if he knowingly new it wouldnt and didnt tell seller to just hope it goes threw and then expect a full refund is wrong.yes I do agree the seller should assume some possibility even rhoufhhe doesnot need to.end of story.
Exactly how else should the seller ensure that goods get to the target destination? Short of putting it in his luggage and personally flying to Russia and having the buyer meet him at the airport, I honestly don't see how he can make sure the item reaches the buyer when customs decides to confiscate it? He filed the insurance claim, and it was denied. This was a deal done with full disclosure ahead of time. In the very sale thread it specifies that international shipping would only be agreed to if the buyer agreed to assume all risks involved with such a venture. It's neither the buyer nor the seller's fault that the item in question got grabbed in customs, but that certainly doesn't entitle the buyer to a full refund because the buyer agreed to assume all the risks. If the plane crashed into the ocean and the package was lost at sea, if a mail carrier or customs snatched it, if it spontaneously combusted, if it fell off a truck somewhere, all of these potential risks were assumed and agreed to by the buyer.
Can you argue that the seller probably knew the knife wouldn't get there? I suppose you could argue that, but international shipping is always tricky. Customs are complicated and vary from country to country just like knife and gun laws do from state to state in the USA. Should he have sent it out if he even thought it might not get there? What kind of a question is this, really? Any time you send something through the mail, whether it's to another country, another state, or to someone 4 blocks over from you, there is a chance it might not arrive. Using that logic, none of us should ever buy, sell, trade, exchange, or give away anything here because there is always a chance the item might not arrive for any number of reasons.
Unfortunately the buyer is out some money. Sometimes in life you just have to nod your head and accept that things don't always work out. But let's not start acting like the seller just decided to stop caring the moment he got the funds. That knife still got sent, still got insured, and an insurance claim was still filed when it was revealed the item didn't make it through customs.
Accepting laid out terms prior to completion of a sale or "deal" is about as close to a binding contract as you are going to get in any kind of internet forum sale. In my opinion agreeing to the terms when they are right there on the sale thread is akin to a handshake. When you shake someone's hand and make a deal, that's it. The deal is exactly as it was agreed to, no more, and no less.
Also, how did he wash his hands of the situation? He filed an insurance claim and it was denied. What other option is there? By now that item is long gone and there is no getting it back. If the insurance refuses to pay on the claim what can be done?
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- Dec 23, 2010
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people on here have a lot of strong opinions (which is good) on who should take responsibility for the transaction going bad. only on a private forum like this would the buyer be held responsible if the item gets "lost" in the mail. ebay, amazon, cabelas, etc. take full responsibility of what they ship out. i believe individuals should to (get rid of disclaimers). if you don't feel comfortable shipping to someone or somewhere, well, don't. as far as insurance, that is the sellers responsibility and set up to protect the seller. i don't like that the buyer had to purchase the insurance. shady deal as i see it.
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