I've lost respect for Rick Hinderer.

If you don't like a maker's prices--don't buy the knife. Simple.

If you make a statement about someone's honesty on the forums -- you'd better be able to back it up. The definition of libel is that it defames, damages, and is published (i.e. seen by more than 2 people). So if you say something bad about someone on here this is not true, you should be prepared to defend your accusation in a court of law--because there are people in this world that will put you in a courtroom and make you prove your statements.

I feel the opening line for this thread is simply reckless, irresponsible, and potentially damaging. The poster's mother obviously never told them that if you can't say something nice you should simply keep your mouth shut.

And finally if you have such opinions about anyone you should have the balls to put your real name with it.

Just my opinion of course.

As for Rick, in my contacts with him I've found him honorable and a damn nice guy--and deserving of praise rather than assault.

Bruce Voyles
 
TennKnifeman said:
If you don't like a maker's prices--don't buy the knife. Simple.

If you make a statement about someone's honesty on the forums -- you'd better be able to back it up. The definition of libel is that it defames, damages, and is published (i.e. seen by more than 2 people). So if you say something bad about someone on here this is not true, you should be prepared to defend your accusation in a court of law--because there are people in this world that will put you in a courtroom and make you prove your statements.

I feel the opening line for this thread is simply reckless, irresponsible, and potentially damaging. The poster's mother obviously never told them that if you can't say something nice you should simply keep your mouth shut.

And finally if you have such opinions about anyone you should have the balls to put your real name with it.

Just my opinion of course.

As for Rick, in my contacts with him I've found him honorable and a damn nice guy--and deserving of praise rather than assault.

Bruce Voyles
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Thus one of my issues with folks using screen names.
 
I don't normally get into these, but I feel I need to this time. Rick is not a crook, he is not greedy, he is a vary hard working artist that cares about putting quality out to the customer. He has always tried to make sure that those who use his products to serve others have the chance to get one, that was getting harder and harder to do prior to the current Gen 3 process. This has I have heard allowed him to greatly increase his output and keep the prices where they were. I have a gen 1 blade and was on the list for a 3 inch for quite a while. He kept me there even when I had to postpone my aquisition due to family arrivals, I appreciate that. As far as charging $800 for one of his hand ground blades. cool! They should cost more than one of his semi-customs and he has priced them where they belong, regardless of what they went for in the past. I may not always carry my XM-18, but I will defend him as a stand up guy that makes a great product.
 
I wanted to post to this last night, as I know Rick and have received invaluable help from him in the past ( Thanks Brother ).

Having followed many of the bigger names in the industry...studied is a better term, not for there designs but for the business model they have. All I can say is keep doing what you do Rick and thanks for the inspiration.

The bottom line is what Rick decides, or any knife/tool, person that owns his own business charges for there products and service is up to them. This is one topic that really discourages me as a maker....some people seem to think they must get their "sweat equity" a trend towards guys that go about building their version of a custom knife which can incorporate the most cutting edge, hi tech materials, textures, safety features and possess the knowledge to make it happen on the most advanced machinery available etc, etc, etc. seem to always be under the scrutiny of the market/secondary market.

My point is those doing well in the industry seem to draw the most fire when they finally realize how much the product is not only worth but worth to the customer. Anyone that achieves what Rick has in a highly let me state that again HIGHLY competitive market, Then he or she has earned and deserved it......

I just curious if any of this happens in the "Custom Gun craft", looking at the current trend/hype in gun sales makes me wonder?

Do famous painters get badgered for selling something that in materials might cost 10.00 to 1,000 dollars in wood, canvas and paint turn around to sell it for hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions??

Edit to add: what about folks that actually decide to charge more to discourage folks from ordering because they are jammed up and in turn get more orders?

So please some of the forum greats please make this a educational thread, I and others would really like to hear a valid explanation to this seemingly "Taboo" subject

To the OP: Sorry to be pulling both triggers on the shotgun in your face, but you are way out of line in this matter and have certainly "barked up the wrong tree". If any one's goods or service does not fit your pocketbook any longer....tough shit go get a better job, Lots of stuff in this world I would like to buy but I can't, so I enjoy what I have.

Spencer
 
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does not fit your pocketbook any longer....tough shit go get a better job
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Rick put in the hard work, effort and time and the reward is some success.

Instead of complaining about his success follow his example.


Mitch
 
It really frosts my cookies to see someone disparage Rick!! He is someone I call a friend.

I deleted my original post, as I felt that I was feeding a troll. (I still do) But, I just can not sit while you attack a great guy & incredible knife maker.
You have 2 posts, that attack reputable knife makers!!
 
I don't know much about Rick or his knives but I believe the original poster has supplied Rick with some pretty effective free advertisement here. As the general consensus seems to be that Rick is a very talented maker who has many loyal customers.
 
Let's see if I have this right...

Rick sees the tremendous popularity of his knives, as expressed by pricing in the secondary market, and realizes he is leaving money on the table.

Decides to raise the price for the 'custom' version, but finds a way to maintain the price point, increase output, and still satisfy legions of fans with the Gen 3.

This is a problem, how? :confused:
 
Personally I like to work with makers who stay aware of the market of their knives and raise prices according to the market.

Especially if I own a few of their knives. Even if I am considering something from them currently, it means that the value of the knife will still rise on the secondary market.
 
Corz said:
It's the inflation of price for a "custom". I'll put it this way, if Rick wants to get the knives out there more quickly then why bother making "custom" XM-18s? And when I say "custom", I'm not talking about XM-18s that have carbon fiber handles, etc. I'm talking about XM-18s that are exactly the same as the semi-custom ones except the blades have been been done by Rick himself. By doing this, Rick is saying that the "custom" XM-18s are better than the "semi-custom" ones but just cost more now than they did a few years ago. I wouldn't have a problem with the shift in price for the "custom" XM-18s had the "semi-custom" ones had gone down in price.
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It's Rick's prerogative to charge whatever he wants for his products. If people are willing to pay it, then that is how much they are worth. That's how the free market works. If people wouldn't buy his stuff at $800, he'd be forced to lower his prices to stay in business.

If you don't want to pay the money, feel free not to patronize the particular maker. If Mr. Hinderer saw that his knives were going to much more than list price on the secondary market and decided to raise his prices, that just speaks to a wise business-sense. There is no reason why you should expect him to still charge anything. If he wants to charge $1 million per knife, and people are willing to pay him, then bless him, and I hope he enjoys his Bugatti Veyron.

It just seems to me that you're whining to us about not getting what you want at the price you want, and to be honest that just makes me lose respect for YOU.
 
Its really too bad that the internet lets people post whatever they want from the obscure safety of their den in who knows where and the whole world becomes their audience!!!!!! :(
 
Fortunately, what emerged from this person's den has been hijacked by people who know better. They have turned what began as bashing into a lesson on the economics of artistry, craftsmanship, persistence, and loyalty. The thread itself might have been more appropriate elsewhere but I'd rather leave that to the forum mods, if they decide to move it to FEEDBACK. I think it works here. We've had a good discussion of why this kind of pricing is absolutely legitimate.
 
I have my name on a makers list right now for a knife that was a great value. His poularity exploded and the list became unmanageable and the knife extremely underpriced. He is currently not making knives and I probably will never see that knife.:(
I would pay todays price for it I am sure some of the people on the list would not agree.:rolleyes:
So we get nothing.:grumpy:
 
I don't own a Hinderer or know Mr. Hinderer, but I've read a lot from those that do which seems to indicate he's a very nice, honest man.

That said, while I don't think the tone of this guys post is all that great, and it ruins any questions he might legitimately be asking, I think what he's trying to ask is something like this...

If Ferrari came out today and said "We'll still be hand making our 460 Modena (current cost is ~$150,000) model by hand, but due to the overwhelming requests for this model we are also going to be making a manufactured model that is partially made by hand. The new Mid-tech 460 will cost $150,000 and the handmade original 460 will cost $300,000."

Is that ok?

Yeah, that's ok...but is it frustrating? Yeah, it's frustrating. What makes the original 460 now worth twice as much as it was right before they made this change?

Again, I'm not agreeing with the poster here, just I can see what he's saying.
 
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Jared P said:
Yeah, that's ok...but is it frustrating? Yeah, it's frustrating. What makes the original 460 now worth twice as much as it was right before they made this change?
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That's what we've been discussing.

If Ferrari sells all the handmade AND partially made by hand models from now on at the new prices, then that's what the cars are worth -- the customers line up with their money to say so.

In fact, the XM-18s and the hypothetical Ferraris were undervalued before the prices rose to match what customers were willing to pay.

In the case of the XM-18s, Rick Hinderer raised his prices to match what his knives were selling for on the secondary market. Why should speculators make the money, rather than the knifemaker himself?
 
Esav Benyamin said:
That's what we've been discussing.

If Ferrari sells all the handmade AND partially made by hand models from now on at the new prices, then that's what the cars are worth -- the customers line up with their money to say so.

In fact, the XM-18s and the hypothetical Ferraris were undervalued before the prices rose to match what customers were willing to pay.

In the case of the XM-18s, Rick Hinderer raised his prices to match what his knives were selling for on the secondary market. Why should speculators make the money, rather than the knifemaker himself?
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I agree with you, but it doesn't change the fact that to someone who wants a Ferrari it is very frustrating. Who wouldn't think first thought "Oh man AWESOME an affordable Ferrari"...only to find out it is in fact not going to be any more affordable at all, even though you assume the cost to produce will decline. I know it is not always the case, but I can see how it could be very frustrating and seem like Ferrari/Hinderer is slightly trying to take advantage of the public. I don't personally believe that, but can see it.
 
I think if you look at it , compared to the rest of the custom market , Rick's custom prices are right on par with what a comparable knife from another maker would cost you ?

So the Ferrari analogy would be more like...

currently selling a model for $150K and cant make enuff ,
others ( say Bugatti ) have a model that is comparable but is selling for $225K .
Ferrari says heck , lets outsource & bring a model like this one in at $125K , and adjust our price on hand made to $200K.

Price on existing handmades is already exceeding $250K on the secondary market due to limited production , their new price is more in line with what it should have been selling for in the first place. So they mispriced the originals...that just means a bunch of people who were in early got a dam good deal.

Win for the maker , win for those who have existing ones ( since they are still able to buy one below secondary prices ).

Should a maker keep his prices the same forever ? Why shouldn't they reap the rewards of a popular model over someone who is buying just to turn & burn it ? And to those that don't think there aren't PLENTY who buy just to do the old turn & burn , you are sadly mistaken.

If you order a knife today from a maker , and his backlog is 3 years , should he be required to sell to you it at the same price 3 years from now ? Nope , he is not required , unless agreed upon at time of order. Material prices are up , power prices are up. Most makers will not lock you in at a price for a knife until they either start making it , or are hammering out the last minute details for it.

Why should speculators make the money, rather than the knifemaker himself?
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exactly !

why should someone who didn't even make the knife , make as much , or more , just for reselling it vs what the maker did on the original sale ?
 
John T Wylie Jr said:
I think if you look at it , compared to the rest of the custom market , Rick's custom prices are right on par with what a comparable knife from another maker would cost you ?

So the Ferrari analogy would be more like...

currently selling a model for $150K and cant make enuff ,
others ( say Bugatti ) have a model that is comparable but is selling for $225K .
Ferrari says heck , lets outsource & bring a model like this one in at $125K , and adjust our price on hand made to $200K.

Price on existing handmades is already exceeding $250K on the secondary market due to limited production , their new price is more in line with what it should have been selling for in the first place. So they mispriced the originals...that just means a bunch of people who were in early got a dam good deal.

Win for the maker , win for those who have existing ones ( since they are still able to buy one below secondary prices ).

Should a maker keep his prices the same forever ? Why shouldn't they reap the rewards of a popular model over someone who is buying just to turn & burn it ? And to those that don't think there aren't PLENTY who buy just to do the old turn & burn , you are sadly mistaken.

If you order a knife today from a maker , and his backlog is 3 years , should he be required to sell to you it at the same price 3 years from now ? Nope , he is not required , unless agreed upon at time of order. Material prices are up , power prices are up. Most makers will not lock you in at a price for a knife until they either start making it , or are hammering out the last minute details for it.

exactly !

why should someone who didn't even make the knife , make as much , or more , just for reselling it vs what the maker did on the original sale ?
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I think knife makers should make as much as they can, I agree 100%. I think the question here though really is customer perception and not the economics of the decision.

Again, I'm not saying I feel the perception is negative. In my view Rick Hinderer just raised his prices to what he feels is the market value. Good decision. I think the original poster was more lamenting the fact that it SEEMED that at the time when he was going to start making Mid-Techs it meant a more affordable Hinderer. Granted, now that he values his customs at $800, $400 IS more affordable. But at the moment of change, it does seem disheartening when you expected to maybe be able to buy a Hinderer for $300.

All of that is really perception, not really anything to do with the actual economics.
 
But at the moment of change, it does seem disheartening when you expected to maybe be able to buy a Hinderer for $300.
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Did Rick ever SAY the mid-techs would be $300 , or is that what someone (OP) FELT they should pay for one.

I feel I should be able to buy a new Ducati Monster for $5K , but it aint gonna happen :)
 
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