Just ordered a Ganzo g710

klute said:
My point is, just what does constitute support of thievery? Businesses steal from anywhere they can including wage theft to deliver their product at a desirable cost to the consumer. Any waking adult should know the extent of thievery in business is far and wide and simply being in the game is theft.

Once again.. - I'm not a Ganzo fanboi.
Click to expand...

Your ideas are intriguing and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
 
klute said:
My point is, just what does constitute support of thievery? Businesses steal from anywhere they can including wage theft to deliver their product at a desirable cost to the consumer. Any waking adult should know the extent of thievery in business is far and wide and simply being in the game is theft.

Once again.. - I'm not a Ganzo fanboi.
Click to expand...

You're either A. Discussing politics in the wrong forum or B. Employing the logical fallacy of 'tu quoque' to justify Ganzo's blatant thievery. Also, as a business owner, I take offense to the notion that all business is theft or that all businesses steal. To say so without providing truly compelling evidence is simply lazy and baseless cynicism. There is certainly plenty of despicable behavior in business, but there are also some companies that are exceptionally transparent and honestly run.
 
@HappyDaddy -I'm really not trying to straight up argue against you I don't believe I said that you are out and out wrong. It's more an exploration than anything and we can both "be right".
 
what we call mission creep. thread has gone politics but how can any Ganzo thread stay out of politics, answer me that scarecrow.
 
klute said:
what we call mission creep. thread has gone politics but how can any Ganzo thread stay out of politics, answer me that scarecrow.
Click to expand...

Yet again, you're relying on tu quoque to excuse your actions. The fact that most threads about counterfeits, clones and fakes drift towards politics doesn't at all mean that it's fine for you to push it that way. You made a conscious choice to bring politics into it. If you want to talk politics here, I would recommend shelling out for a Basic membership which would give you access to the political arena.
 
klute said:
My point is, just what does constitute support of thievery? Businesses steal from anywhere they can including wage theft to deliver their product at a desirable cost to the consumer. Any waking adult should know the extent of thievery in business is far and wide and simply being in the game is theft.

Once again.. - I'm not a Ganzo fanboi.
Click to expand...

Business's are on the whole honest, it's bad business to be lying and cheating just because it can go both ways. While there have been and are businesses that cross the line, they often get found out and either fall or get the s%&t sued out of them, sometimes eventually.
To paint that brush on all businesses is base ignorance.
As far as ganzo, it appears their crime falls closer to a moral cheat than material. They offer a decent piece of equipment for the money which is a blatant ripoff of Benchmade. From what I've read of their stuff, they probably could've made a name without being copycats, but that's their choice and possibly culture in China. The only thing we can do is not buy their product, but there are many who will and they'll make a large chunk of cash.It's wrong but apparently legal.
 
mongomondo said:
The benefit of these clones are that they are getting better and better in terms of quality. Sucks for the established companies but it will force them to either lower their own prices or up their quality even more. We as consumers win either way. More options are better in my opinion. Not everyone can afford a real Spyderco Paramilitary 2. Though if you can I highly recommend it.
Click to expand...

This logic doesn't work in the real world though. There's a plethora of reasons why knockoff companies can charge so little. For one, they don't incur the R&D costs of the original designers. They don't have to pay licensing fees for the stuff they steal. All they have to do is take a bunch of measurements, punch those into a computer, and they're off. They're often using cheaper, inferior materials, regardless of what they say it is. They're stealing someone else's design, why would they be honest about what they used? Depending on who's running the factory, you may have workers that are being paid very little while working longer hours.

Established companies charge what they do because they have to in order to survive. Costs have increased on everything from materials to labor, so to lower their prices would require cuts made elsewhere. Raising the quality means more hands on time, which means more labor, which means each knife costs the manufacturers more. And of course, those costs are passed on to us. I'm not a business major, but last time I checked, that's how it worked.

And no, clones are not a better option. The more people that buy Para 2 clones, the fewer people that buy the real thing. That means less money going to one of the most innovative companies, which means they can afford less innovation.

People would be better served saving their money for what they want, or better yet, buy a lower priced option from reputable companies that don't steal designs from other people.

In the end, it's your money, and your conscience. It's fine if you feel you're in the right, but don't expect me to agree.
 
mongomondo said:
The benefit of these clones are that they are getting better and better in terms of quality. Sucks for the established companies but it will force them to either lower their own prices or up their quality even more. We as consumers win either way. More options are better in my opinion. Not everyone can afford a real Spyderco Paramilitary 2. Though if you can I highly recommend it.
Click to expand...

false on both accounts. the clones are not getting better and the very very few that are, still are crap and no where near an origins. don't kid yourself and stop repeating what you heard without any proof or data to back that up what so ever.

and 2... people just need to save. save 10$ from every paycheck. if you can't do that, what does that say about that person? says a lot!
and to add, why a clone then? the excuses are so terrible.
 
StuntDouble said:
This logic doesn't work in the real world though. There's a plethora of reasons why knockoff companies can charge so little. For one, they don't incur the R&D costs of the original designers. They don't have to pay licensing fees for the stuff they steal. All they have to do is take a bunch of measurements, punch those into a computer, and they're off. They're often using cheaper, inferior materials, regardless of what they say it is. They're stealing someone else's design, why would they be honest about what they used? Depending on who's running the factory, you may have workers that are being paid very little while working longer hours.

Established companies charge what they do because they have to in order to survive. Costs have increased on everything from materials to labor, so to lower their prices would require cuts made elsewhere. Raising the quality means more hands on time, which means more labor, which means each knife costs the manufacturers more. And of course, those costs are passed on to us. I'm not a business major, but last time I checked, that's how it worked.

And no, clones are not a better option. The more people that buy Para 2 clones, the fewer people that buy the real thing. That means less money going to one of the most innovative companies, which means they can afford less innovation.

People would be better served saving their money for what they want, or better yet, buy a lower priced option from reputable companies that don't steal designs from other people.

In the end, it's your money, and your conscience. It's fine if you feel you're in the right, but don't expect me to agree.
Click to expand...

Very well put SD!! There is, however, one major problem with your post.......you are speaking common sense....and common sense very rarely enters the equation in these discussions.
What seems so clear to most of us here, others refuse to see and offer baseless arguments.
Joe
 
robgmn said:
If a member outside of the US posts about his Ganzo with the barrel lock, is it breaking the rules?
(BTW-after finally finding the rules, I was unable to find the one that states discussion of stuff like this is verboten. It may not hurt to include links when referencing forum rules, especially when neophytes are involved in the discussion).
Click to expand...

Well, to be fair, if you read the thread from the get go you would see that I not only posted a link to the rules but also quoted the opinion of this forum on this subject:

craytab said:
Oh, so now they use the steel they say they are using! Good deal!

If by forum commandos you must mean the stance on knockoffs this forum states in the rules, right? Just so we are clear on how this community feels on the subject see here:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=746&a=98

I'll even quote it for you:

"Fakes/Homages-
As fakes and homage items are a legal gray area and obviously hurt the hobby, no fake or homage items may be sold on the Exchange. Members may not knowingly sell unlicensed knockoffs or counterfeit versions of knives (or any other goods) based upon the designs of their legitimate owner, manufacturer or custom maker. Additionally, members may not sell any knife or item known or suspected to be other than as described in terms of its lineage and authenticity."


There you have it. If you want to talk gloriously about this garbage maybe got to another place on the internet that supports such a blight on this hobby. Otherwise, prepare to hear about how wrong you are from this community. :thumbup:
Click to expand...


When discussing such things it is important to get basic facts of what is said correct. No where did I say talking about such scumbag counterfeits was against the rules. I'm just repeating the opinion of this community on said scumbag counterfeits. Folks can disagree all they want but it is the opinion of this forum that they are wrong :)
 
Craytab I saidbusinesses, I did not say all businesses and I did so in the interest of brevity because the subject is a broad one.

You can accuse me of any fallacy in the book but you have yet to prove what I said is wrong.
 
klute said:
Craytab I saidbusinesses, I did not say all businesses and I did so in the interest of brevity because the subject is a broad one.

You can accuse me of any fallacy in the book but you have yet to prove what I said is wrong.
Click to expand...

You said that simply being in the game is theft. If that's not a claim that all businesses are perpetuating theft, I'd like to know what it was. As for proof, you made a positive claim, burden of proof is on you.
 
Why is it that I have to have the same opinion as those running the forum? If that were the case in all accounts, they would simply post their opinions and close down any outside comments. If the rules are not to sell those items here, so be it. But those taking things beyond the statement of no sales are guilty of harassing other members over their opinions.

It's ironic how selective the crowd is here about some issues. Do any of you request brand name medications? Do any of you buy frame locks that aren't CRK? How about liner locks, or slip joints, or back locks? Are those only from the original inventor? What about thumb studs or flipper tabs? Shouldn't the righteous thing be only to support the original inventor regardless of patent?

And what about Benchmade? While the rest of the community is leaving new and inventive ideas as common art for others to use and advance they are blocking others from an idea they didn't even come up with. Isn't that harmful to the community? Wouldn't we be better off with it all open source? It seems like we pick and goose who's business practices are mora and who's aren't. Legally, if Ganzo only sells their stuff outside the patent countries, they are legally in the right. If you want to chastise the individual importers who market here, that's one thing. But let's not hold some companies to a different moral standard in name of community and then ignore others. Let's also not hold one company to laws that aren't in place outside the US. This is an internationally used forum. There are plenty of people who are doing. There are plenty of people who can buy Ganzo products legally and break no more rules than when some other company uses a frame lock, or a drop point blade, or any other feature.

This forum is really funny in their blindness to their biases and unjust reasoning. I'm sure I'll be labeled a monster for having an opinion other than "burn the non-believers" but that's just part of the blindness.
 
Business is to buy low and sell high, some might consider this to be thievery.

Business aims at reducing cost and tax liability. I can audit any business and find questionable "business expenses", I have audited hundreds of company back in my auditing days. From the mom and pop stores to large corporations, everyone tries to steal from the tax man. But of course, many consider paying taxes thievery too.

It all depends on which end of the spectrum one's position is, you guys are all arguing a moot point here. All I'm saying is let people exercise their freedom of speech and stop enforcing your own ideals on others of the forum. Yes I'm talking about you gray crab and hack & slash.
 
benzy2 said:
Why is it that I have to have the same opinion as those running the forum? If that were the case in all accounts, they would simply post their opinions and close down any outside comments. If the rules are not to sell those items here, so be it. But those taking things beyond the statement of no sales are guilty of harassing other members over their opinions.

It's ironic how selective the crowd is here about some issues. Do any of you request brand name medications? Do any of you buy frame locks that aren't CRK? How about liner locks, or slip joints, or back locks? Are those only from the original inventor? What about thumb studs or flipper tabs? Shouldn't the righteous thing be only to support the original inventor regardless of patent?

And what about Benchmade? While the rest of the community is leaving new and inventive ideas as common art for others to use and advance they are blocking others from an idea they didn't even come up with. Isn't that harmful to the community? Wouldn't we be better off with it all open source? It seems like we pick and goose who's business practices are mora and who's aren't. Legally, if Ganzo only sells their stuff outside the patent countries, they are legally in the right. If you want to chastise the individual importers who market here, that's one thing. But let's not hold some companies to a different moral standard in name of community and then ignore others. Let's also not hold one company to laws that aren't in place outside the US. This is an internationally used forum. There are plenty of people who are doing. There are plenty of people who can buy Ganzo products legally and break no more rules than when some other company uses a frame lock, or a drop point blade, or any other feature.

This forum is really funny in their blindness to their biases and unjust reasoning. I'm sure I'll be labeled a monster for having an opinion other than "burn the non-believers" but that's just part of the blindness.
Click to expand...

A. How is anyone on here harassing anyone over their opinion? Those that think highly of Ganzo knives are free to post their opinions, other members are free to post their opinions both about what they think of companies like Ganzo and what they think of the act of supporting said companies. As long as everyone obeys forum rules it's all good, that's how conversation and debate works. B. This is a false equivalency. Everything you've named was either not patented, or the patent has long expired. C. So there should be no reward whatsoever for innovation? What incentive would there be to commit any resources at all to research and development if there was absolutely no reward for doing so? Then you immediately conflate legal and moral. It is absolutely legal for Ganzo to steal patented technology and intellectual property as long as they don't sell it in countries where the laws protect said intellectual property. Point of fact, it's also absolutely legal to cheat on your spouse. Furthermore, it's most definitely legal for me to judge the hell out of you for performing or enabling either behavior.
 
benzy2 said:
But those taking things beyond the statement of no sales are guilty of harassing other members over their opinions.

It's ironic how selective the crowd is here about some issues. Do any of you request brand name medications? Do any of you buy frame locks that aren't CRK?
Click to expand...

Amen brother, that's exactly what I'm talking about, the HYPOCRITES of these self righteous few we see on everyone of these threads. It's why Cutlerylover quit this board, he stated just as much on his youtube videos, that BF have a hive mentality and swarms anyone who holds a different opinion.

Wow, I think that definition qualify it as a cult. Now I understand, the ones expressing their extreme non-sensible opinions while accusing all others who disagrees with them here are cultists.
 
Neomentat said:
Business is to buy low and sell high, some might consider this to be thievery.

Business aims at reducing cost and tax liability. I can audit any business and find questionable "business expenses", I have audited hundreds of company back in my auditing days. From the mom and pop stores to large corporations, everyone tries to steal from the tax man. But of course, many consider paying taxes thievery too.

It all depends on which end of the spectrum one's position is, you guys are all arguing a moot point here. All I'm saying is let people exercise their freedom of speech and stop enforcing your own ideals on others of the forum. Yes I'm talking about you gray crab and hack & slash.
Click to expand...

Wait, are Craytab and Hack&Slash locking people up because they disagree? Are there some dire legal consequences waiting in the wings? How are they enforcing these ideals and suppressing freedom of speech? By saying thing on the internet?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top