Just ordered a Ganzo g710

[benzy2]

A. How is anyone on here harassing anyone over their opinion? Those that think highly of Ganzo knives are free to post their opinions, other members are free to post their opinions both about what they think of companies like Ganzo and what they think of the act of supporting said companies. As long as everyone obeys forum rules it's all good, that's how conversation and debate works. B. This is a false equivalency. Everything you've named was either not patented, or the patent has long expired. C. So there should be no reward whatsoever for innovation? What incentive would there be to commit any resources at all to research and development if there was absolutely no reward for doing so? Then you immediately conflate legal and moral. It is absolutely legal for Ganzo to steal patented technology and intellectual property as long as they don't sell it in countries where the laws protect said intellectual property. Point of fact, it's also absolutely legal to cheat on your spouse. Furthermore, it's most definitely legal for me to judge the hell out of you for performing or enabling either behavior.

The point is the majority of voices here preach that Ganzo is wrong for what they do because either it's illegal or it's immoral. My point is, its not Ganzo selling knives illegally so to hate them for that is wrong. They aren't copying designs illegally either. So again, to hate them for that is wrong.

Then comes morals. It's wrong to use others designs, i.e. The Axis lock or Spyderco hole. I'd argue it's no less morally wrong than using a frame lock, or liner lock, or any other feature you didn't design or didn't pay to the inventor, patented or not. A trademark isn't what makes using others ideas bad, is it? Because then we aren't arguing morals but legaities.

Then there is this concerto of good for the hobby. Ok, if that's the argument, why do we give companies a pass who block others from sharing in ideas to better the community? What about all the issues with multiple legal battles? Is Cold Steel a naughty company that should be blacklisted from their community unfriendly past?

You may not think people are harassing towards others but it's clear that the tone and text is often less than appropriate. There is a polite way around it and then there is the way that's taken by many here. It could be handled simply by ignoring the thread or by "I don't like Ganzo and don't support them" rather than the hostility that gets posted in every one of these threads.

 

[Larcivs Lepidvs]

The point is the majority of voices here preach that Ganzo is wrong for what they do because either it's illegal or it's immoral. My point is, its not Ganzo selling knives illegally so to hate them for that is wrong. They aren't copying designs illegally either. So again, to hate them for that is wrong.

Then comes morals. It's wrong to use others designs, i.e. The Axis lock or Spyderco hole. I'd argue it's no less morally wrong than using a frame lock, or liner lock, or any other feature you didn't design or didn't pay to the inventor, patented or not. A trademark isn't what makes using others ideas bad, is it? Because then we aren't arguing morals but legaities.

Then there is this concerto of good for the hobby. Ok, if that's the argument, why do we give companies a pass who block others from sharing in ideas to better the community? What about all the issues with multiple legal battles? Is Cold Steel a naughty company that should be blacklisted from their community unfriendly past?

You may not think people are harassing towards others but it's clear that the tone and text is often less than appropriate. There is a polite way around it and then there is the way that's taken by many here. It could be handled simply by ignoring the thread or by "I don't like Ganzo and don't support them" rather than the hostility that gets posted in every one of these threads.

that's right porcamadonna. I've also noticed that Ganzo's fit & finish and otb sharpness are always slightly better than the cheaper chinese models of Kershaw, Spyderco, etc.
Ganzo quality control is very good, unlike that of blasonate and more expensive brands.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

The point is the majority of voices here preach that Ganzo is wrong for what they do because either it's illegal or it's immoral. My point is, its not Ganzo selling knives illegally so to hate them for that is wrong. They aren't copying designs illegally either. So again, to hate them for that is wrong.

Then comes morals. It's wrong to use others designs, i.e. The Axis lock or Spyderco hole. I'd argue it's no less morally wrong than using a frame lock, or liner lock, or any other feature you didn't design or didn't pay to the inventor, patented or not. A trademark isn't what makes using others ideas bad, is it? Because then we aren't arguing morals but legaities.

Then there is this concerto of good for the hobby. Ok, if that's the argument, why do we give companies a pass who block others from sharing in ideas to better the community? What about all the issues with multiple legal battles? Is Cold Steel a naughty company that should be blacklisted from their community unfriendly past?

You may not think people are harassing towards others but it's clear that the tone and text is often less than appropriate. There is a polite way around it and then there is the way that's taken by many here. It could be handled simply by ignoring the thread or by "I don't like Ganzo and don't support them" rather than the hostility that gets posted in every one of these threads.

I disagree and argue that you have a loose grasp of morality if you think it's okay to deprive people and companies that expend time, effort and money innovating from the fruits of their labor. But I also agree that the community should, eventually be able to make use of that ingenuity for the betterment of all. If only there was some kind of system that would allow one to produce an invention exclusively for some set period of time, then open it up for everyone to benefit! Also, Trademarks and patents are very, very different. A trademark CANNOT have utility beyond designating something as being produced by X company and they can be renewed indefinitely.

As for tone, I recommend using the report function if you see any posts or responses that you feel constitute harassment. The mod staff here doesn't look kindly upon that kind of thing, but spirited discussion is the heart and soul of a forum, though some don't have the fortitude to express views in the face of widespread disagreement.

 

[Mo2]

that's right porcamadonna. I've also noticed that Ganzo's fit & finish and otb sharpness are always slightly better than the cheaper chinese models of Kershaw, Spyderco, etc.
Ganzo quality control is very good, unlike that of blasonate and more expensive brands.

lol what data do you have of that? lmao its funny how you make such a statement true or not without any actual facts. and the thing is, you will never have the full picture on that subject, so why use that as an argument?

 

[Mo2]

does anyone actually know how generic drugs vs name brand actually works? because its really really funny that someone brought that up as a argument... because it couldnt be more wrong for that point of view.

I haven't seen any real good argument for the clones ever.

 

[craytab]

Business is to buy low and sell high, some might consider this to be thievery.

Business aims at reducing cost and tax liability. I can audit any business and find questionable "business expenses", I have audited hundreds of company back in my auditing days. From the mom and pop stores to large corporations, everyone tries to steal from the tax man. But of course, many consider paying taxes thievery too.

It all depends on which end of the spectrum one's position is, you guys are all arguing a moot point here. All I'm saying is let people exercise their freedom of speech and stop enforcing your own ideals on others of the forum. Yes I'm talking about you gray crab and hack & slash.

You must realize there is no freedom of speech here, right? This is a private forum. Do you understand what that part of the United States Constitution means? Seriously educate yourself before you throw constitutional law into a discussion where it does not apply.

And the irony of you telling people to not express their opinion of what others have said is....well, ironic.......

 

[Planterz]

Then comes morals. It's wrong to use others designs, i.e. The Axis lock or Spyderco hole. I'd argue it's no less morally wrong than using a frame lock, or liner lock, or any other feature you didn't design or didn't pay to the inventor, patented or not. A trademark isn't what makes using others ideas bad, is it? Because then we aren't arguing morals but legaities.

Michael Walker invented the liner lock. Or rather, re-invented it, as it goes back many decades to traditional slip-joint knives. Michael Walker didn't patent it. Chris Reeve adapted it into the "integral lock", often called a frame lock. Not patented either.

Try again.

 

[robgmn]

You are erroneous and deficient in your understanding of these laws. I will not waste my time educating you on this. Do it yourself. Also, the questionable legality of weed is not a "much like" comparison to make.

Far from erroneous and deficient.
The law is still active. That means it's LAW. It's actually quite simple. It's "On the books".

The weed analogy is also quite valid, but you seem to not understand the analogy.
I'll simplify it: weed is illegal under federal law, but legal under some state law. Auto knives are illegal under federal law, but legal under some state law.
It would be difficult to simplify it any further for you.

As for any "bone to pick" that I have with Bladeforums' owner: I have no bone to pick. I was merely commenting on someone's post regarding that Bladeforums' owner does not like counterfeit knives. I questioned how the dislike for clones (which are illegal) is reconciled with selling auto knives (which are illegal).

It has just as much to do with this thread as the immediate complaints and ongoing talk about the OP's knife being a clone/counterfeit/knockoff/homage/etc.

 

[benzy2]

I disagree and argue that you have a loose grasp of morality if you think it's okay to deprive people and companies that expend time, effort and money innovating from the fruits of their labor. But I also agree that the community should, eventually be able to make use of that ingenuity for the betterment of all. If only there was some kind of system that would allow one to produce an invention exclusively for some set period of time, then open it up for everyone to benefit! Also, Trademarks and patents are very, very different. A trademark CANNOT have utility beyond designating something as being produced by X company and they can be renewed indefinitely.

As for tone, I recommend using the report function if you see any posts or responses that you feel constitute harassment. The mod staff here doesn't look kindly upon that kind of thing, but spirited discussion is the heart and soul of a forum, though some don't have the fortitude to express views in the face of widespread disagreement.

And that system says it's perfectly fine for an outside country to do what they like without regard to the domestic system. So are we stating our laws are our morals? I think you interchange morals and laws when they fit your argument. We should morally not use another's design because a law says so? No, we should follow a law because it's a law. There is morally nothing different with the Axis lock today than there is in a year (or whenever the forum agrees the patent expires). There is a legal difference for items sold here. I have no issue with a company going after individual retailers or distributors who are importing and selling patent infringing goods in the US. But that doesn't make the manufacturer evil either.

 

[powernoodle]

I really never understood why people are always so concerned on other people's purchases...

A+ on that. People love to meddle in other people's business. It make the meddlers feel superior.

The complaints would be valid if there was even one example in the history of mankind of Benchmade losing one sale because someone bought a Ganzo. But that just is not the case. Ganzo does not make counterfeit Benchmades. Ganzo makes cheap lookalikes with cheap blade steel for $20, which have no bearing whatsoever on Benchmade's $165 overpriced Rift. And I own 2x of the latter, btw, plus a ton of other Benchmades and a few Ganzos.

If Ganzo made an actual counterfeit Rift that said Benchmade on it, and stole sales from Benchmade, that would a civil wrong. But they don't. Ganzo does not steal sales from Benchmade, and so all the bluster in this thread is misplaced. And irrespective of that, the same people in this thread trying to tell everyone else how to live are the same ones who would recoil at a politician or loudmouth do-gooder telling them how to live. "Don't tell me I can't buy that gun, but I'll tell you not to buy that knife."

Come on, now.

 

[Schwifty]

This forum is really funny in their blindness to their biases and unjust reasoning. I'm sure I'll be labeled a monster for having an opinion other than "burn the non-believers" but that's just part of the blindness.

One can often mistake this forum for something neutral, something like Reddit/Knives where the PEOPLE all decide what's right and wrong if at all. Unlike Reddit, this forum, the platform itself, has a stance. That stance is one against clones and counterfeits.
Having established a clear bias, or stance on the matter, even going as far to include it in the rules and stickies- it would seem in fact BF is not "blind" to it's biases, it is actually defending and promoting the bias it told you it had when we all walked through the door, so to speak.

 

[Planterz]

Far from erroneous and deficient.
The law is still active. That means it's LAW. It's actually quite simple. It's "On the books".

No, it is not. There is no such law, so there is no law to be active. The Federal Switchblade Act prohibits interstate commerce, with exceptions (military, LE, others). You are wrong and it saddens me that you are unwilling to consider this possibility. 1SKS is neither in the moral or legal wrong.

The weed analogy is also quite valid, but you seem to not understand the analogy.
I'll simplify it: weed is illegal under federal law, but legal under some state law. Auto knives are illegal under federal law, but legal under some state law.
It would be difficult to simplify it any further for you.

Apples and oranges. See above.

As for any "bone to pick" that I have with Bladeforums' owner: I have no bone to pick. I was merely commenting on someone's post regarding that Bladeforums' owner does not like counterfeit knives. I questioned how the dislike for clones (which are illegal) is reconciled with selling auto knives (which are illegal).

See above.

 

[Mo2]

A+ on that. People love to meddle in other people's business. It make the meddlers feel superior.

The complaints would be valid if there was even one example in the history of mankind of Benchmade losing one sale because someone bought a Ganzo. But that just is not the case. Ganzo does not make counterfeit Benchmades. Ganzo makes cheap lookalikes with cheap blade steel for $20, which have no bearing whatsoever on Benchmade's $165 overpriced Rift. And I own 2x of the latter, btw, plus a ton of other Benchmades and a few Ganzos.

If Ganzo made an actual counterfeit Rift that said Benchmade on it, and stole sales from Benchmade, that would a civil wrong. But they don't. Ganzo does not steal sales from Benchmade, and so all the bluster in this thread is misplaced. And irrespective of that, the same people in this thread trying to tell everyone else how to live are the same ones who would recoil at a politician or loudmouth do-gooder telling them how to live. "Don't tell me I can't buy that gun, but I'll tell you not to buy that knife."

Come on, now.

then why replicate the image of other designs into their own? its simple, they want it because it helps sell them. so sure you have a point, but not really.

 

[Hackenslash]

Wait, are Craytab and Hack&Slash locking people up because they disagree? Are there some dire legal consequences waiting in the wings? How are they enforcing these ideals and suppressing freedom of speech? By saying thing on the internet?

Put them in the Comfy Chair!!!

 

[benzy2]

does anyone actually know how generic drugs vs name brand actually works? because its really really funny that someone brought that up as a argument... because it couldnt be more wrong for that point of view.

I haven't seen any real good argument for the clones ever.

So it's not a system of companies who put in no/minimal research, no/minimal development, no/minimal testing, no/minimal expense and take another company's design and copy it within a small exact percentage of the original version? That sounds exactly like the hate here. Most of the time the generic manufacturers wait till patents expire but the point is they are copying next to identically another company's product and for that we all beg them to hurry up and do their copying so we pay less.

 

[Mo2]

So it's not a system of companies who put in no/minimal research, no/minimal development, no/minimal testing, no/minimal expense and take another company's design and copy it within a small exact percentage of the original version? That sounds exactly like the hate here. Most of the time the generic manufacturers wait till patents expire but the point is they are copying next to identically another company's product and for that we all beg them to hurry up and do their copying so we pay less.

keep guessing

 

[benzy2]

Michael Walker invented the liner lock. Or rather, re-invented it, as it goes back many decades to traditional slip-joint knives. Michael Walker didn't patent it. Chris Reeve adapted it into the "integral lock", often called a frame lock. Not patented either.

Try again.

So if all we are arguing is if the law covers it under patent or not as what is justified or not, how can you say Ganzo is doing anything wrong? They aren't selling to anyone that the patent covers. Williams and Michenry could have placed international patents but didn't. So if all that is the issue is that the law covers it, then there is nothing wrong with making that design where the law doesn't cover it, just like the law doesn't cover making a frame lock, liner lock, etc. Right? If all we care about is what is legal, there shouldn't be any hate for a non-US company to sell products to non-US residents that aren't patented outside the US. Hate the importer/retailer if you like for breaking the patent law but not the manufacturer (unless they are selling direct to the US which doesn't seem to be the case).

 

[Mo2]

So if all we are arguing is if the law covers it under patent or not as what is justified or not, how can you say Ganzo is doing anything wrong? They aren't selling to anyone that the patent covers. Williams and Michenry could have placed international patents but didn't. So if all that is the issue is that the law covers it, then there is nothing wrong with making that design where the law doesn't cover it, just like the law doesn't cover making a frame lock, liner lock, etc. Right? If all we care about is what is legal, there shouldn't be any hate for a non-US company to sell products to non-US residents that aren't patented outside the US. Hate the importer/retailer if you like for breaking the patent law but not the manufacturer (unless they are selling direct to the US which doesn't seem to be the case).

Wat? can you please make a valid argument.

 

[benzy2]

keep guessing

Please feel free to tell explain it. Are you saying Pfizer is getting paid when Mylan sells a bottle of Atorvastatin?

 

[Insipid Moniker]

And that system says it's perfectly fine for an outside country to do what they like without regard to the domestic system. So are we stating our laws are our morals? I think you interchange morals and laws when they fit your argument. We should morally not use another's design because a law says so? No, we should follow a law because it's a law. There is morally nothing different with the Axis lock today than there is in a year (or whenever the forum agrees the patent expires). There is a legal difference for items sold here. I have no issue with a company going after individual retailers or distributors who are importing and selling patent infringing goods in the US. But that doesn't make the manufacturer evil either.

The system has no power over domestic law in other countries. That doesn't mean that the system says it's okay. Also, why bring up the system at all? You're doing the very thing that you accuse me of, conflating legality with morality. I don't know how you missed it, but I hold the belief that people should reap the benefits of their ingenuity, but said ingenuity should eventually benefit all. You, on the other hand, have simultaneously argued that using any invention without paying the inventor and obtaining permission should be regarded as theft and that companies that keep their inventions and refinements from the rest of the community are immoral. Given these are mutually exclusive positions I'm not quite sure what the idea behind this is.