Just ordered a Ganzo g710

HappyDaddy said:
I've found that people either have a moral compass that I respect, or they don't. I've also found that I have little to no success in trying to adjust someone else's moral compass. Putting money in the till of those who steal the work of others is unambiguously wrong, but those of you with broken compasses aren't going to see that, no matter how hard we try to convince you.
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A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
 
HappyDaddy said:
I've found that people either have a moral compass that I respect, or they don't. I've also found that I have little to no success in trying to adjust someone else's moral compass. Putting money in the till of those who steal the work of others is unambiguously wrong, but those of you with broken compasses aren't going to see that, no matter how hard we try to convince you.
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I couldn't agree more.
 
hexenjager said:
A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
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The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.

-Einstein.

Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason so few engage in it.

-Ford.
 
JR88FAN said:
The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.

-Einstein.

Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason so few engage in it.

-Ford.
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Absolutely. Change and thinking (and changing your thinking for that matter) both do require willingness on the part of the changer or the thinker though.
 
Hi *******,

We spend hundreds of thousands of dollars every year to try to stop counterfeits. Dollars that our customer ends up paying for in the prodeuct because thieves are stealing our company, products, designs, trademarks, etc. By supporting them, you hurt us.

sal


Great post by Sal.
He made another one when this subject came up a year or so ago.
He stated when the clone Delicas & Enduras were rampant, a few years ago, it almost put Spydie out of business.
Don't buy that shit.......it DOES hurt the businesses that do the R&D and provide support to their customers.
Joe
 
Insipid Moniker said:
It's morally wrong to profit off the work of others without investing anything of your own. Ganzo does that both by using patented technology and by blatantly copying designs. As I've consistently maintained, not all legal acts are moral and not all moral acts are legal. As for foreign patents I don't check on them, and I think ignorance of their practices is a totally acceptable reason to have purchased one of their clones, but I would, once made aware, seek out a product that was not using others intellectual property.
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And that (bolded by me above) is all the justification repeat buyers of clones and even counterfeits need. "It's legal where they're made, so what's the problem?"

I bought a Ganzo a couple years back, before they were really getting discussed much here. I wasn't familiar with Benchmade's various models, so the copying aspect was lost on me, but it was immediately apparent that the knife had some design elements that made no sense, one that stood out being screw holes for switching from right- to left-hand carry...for a clip other than the size/shape included with the knife. It was - in retrospect - copied from the grip design of a different knife than the one whose clip design was actually used. I gave the knife to a friend because, well, he needed a knife and I didn't care about the Ganzo. Then I bought another one, a more blatant copy of a Benchmade (as I learned after the fact) and arguably a nicer knife than the first. It was, for all intents and purposes, a perfectly acceptable knife for the money, which is typical "praise" for a cheap knife. It was shortly after the second purchase that I started reading about Ganzo's propensity for copying other manufacturers' designs, sometimes mixing features from multiple sources.

Now, what happened after that is possibly the opposite of what usually happens. Rather than me being someone who wanted a Benchmade but didn't want to pay the price of admission and thus opting to buy a knock-off, I ended up buying Benchmades because of the knock-offs. I had no prior experience with them, but felt compelled to educate myself. As a result, I now own a handful of Benchmades. Meanwhile, that second Ganzo wasn't followed by a third. However, I can't fault the knife for its manufacturer's unethical behavior, so it occupies a place in my budget EDC rotation for as long as it functions. Time will tell if it outlasts the cheap MTech, Taylor and Gerber folders that I once bought for similar purposes. Of course, the vast majority of people looking for an inexpensive knife 1) are going to consider the specs of most Ganzo knives quite decent for the price and 2) aren't going to research the brand much, whether here on BF or elsewhere. Those who do might not care, seeing Benchmade as somehow the "bad guy" for charging what they do. It's bound to happen.

For any music/pro audio dorks like me, the closest parallel I can think of is Behringer, who was frequently accused of copying established manufacturer's products by way of Chinese factories. There was talk of cutting corners on actual construction techniques and components, but as with so many things, fans of the brand justified repeat purchases by saying "Brand X charges too much, and should lower their prices if they want people to buy their stuff."
 
Anyone else notice the announcement that Benchmade is cancelling the H&K line comes with Ganzo producing an exact copy of the H&K Axis Lock knife? Hey, the H&K Axis Knife was made in America by the guy down the street from you. This is a direct loss due to the clone market. An $80 USA made knife buckles to a $25 clone knife. Anyone else want to play the "no damage to the original maker" card? Wake up and smell what you're shoveling. For those of you that still can't see this problem, give me some of what you're smoking. Serious. I really need the same kind of escape from reality that supporters of the clone industry seem to enjoy. Dang, I wish I had your ability to engage situational ethics...
 
Hackenslash said:
Anyone else notice the announcement that Benchmade is cancelling the H&K line comes with Ganzo producing an exact copy of the H&K Axis Lock knife? Hey, the H&K Axis Knife was made in America by the guy down the street from you. This is a direct loss due to the clone market. An $80 USA made knife buckles to a $25 clone knife. Anyone else want to play the "no damage to the original maker" card? Wake up and smell what you're shoveling. For those of you that still can't see this problem, give me some of what you're smoking. Serious. I really need the same kind of escape from reality that supporters of the clone industry seem to enjoy. Dang, I wish I had your ability to engage situational ethics...
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I doubt the clone of the 14715 is the reason Benchmade's entire HK line is being discontinued.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Ah, so you do seem to grasp that there are varying degrees of severity with which one can perform certain morally wrong actions! It's morally wrong to profit off the work of others without investing anything of your own. Ganzo does that both by using patented technology and by blatantly copying designs. As I've consistently maintained, not all legal acts are moral and not all moral acts are legal. As for foreign patents I don't check on them, and I think ignorance of their practices is a totally acceptable reason to have purchased one of their clones, but I would, once made aware, seek out a product that was not using others intellectual property.
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But that's the thin red line. I don't agree with the argument "If it's patented here, then it's wrong to use the design anywhere". I don't think the US is the world patent office.

JR88FAN said:
The fact of the matter is, is that if Ganzo was an American Company, they would have been sued into non-existance by a number of knife manufactures a long time ago.

They would lose every case against them.

That tells me two things, they violate something that we need to take more seriously, and that's the protection of ideas.
Not "vague" ideas, like a drop point blade, but direct copies and exact cloning of an existing product.

I think that's black and white enough for everyone to be able to distinguish between.

Protecting idea's from DIRECT copy helps innovation, nobody wants to design something that can be copied almost immediately without a monetary agreement or penalty.

Why put money into R&D?

Even if you don't care about any of this and just have to have your cheap clone, maybe think of the people who actually put together that piece of junk, what they're getting paid, and the conditions and terms they work under.
Maybe that reason is a better one to not buy these knives......
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They don't recognize what you consider protected designs as protected designs, same as we don't recognize many of their laws and rules. Should we have a universal set of rules and laws? It would certainly remove any grey area there is about what is legal and what isn't.

What job do you propose those workers do in place? If you want to close those shops (which isn't a terrible idea) what is your replacement occupation to keep their families fed?

Hackenslash said:
Anyone else notice the announcement that Benchmade is cancelling the H&K line comes with Ganzo producing an exact copy of the H&K Axis Lock knife? Hey, the H&K Axis Knife was made in America by the guy down the street from you. This is a direct loss due to the clone market. An $80 USA made knife buckles to a $25 clone knife. Anyone else want to play the "no damage to the original maker" card? Wake up and smell what you're shoveling. For those of you that still can't see this problem, give me some of what you're smoking. Serious. I really need the same kind of escape from reality that supporters of the clone industry seem to enjoy. Dang, I wish I had your ability to engage situational ethics...
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If you think the problem with Benchmade is Ganzo, I disagree. I've tried to spend money on multiple Benchmades in the last 6 months and only one was built correctly. I've tried and tried to spend money on a properly built Benchmade and they have just been a disappointment after disappointment. I have more faith I'd get one built right from Ganzo to be honest. And let's not get into pricing. Sales dropping? Let's raise prices. It's a downward spiral to the bottom. Benchmade was the first non-Walmart knife and the brand holds a soft spot in my heart for that but they simply aren't consistently making well built knives in a time where everyone else is.
 
JR88FAN said:
The fact of the matter is, is that if Ganzo was an American Company, they would have been sued into non-existance by a number of knife manufactures a long time ago.
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The knife companies could sue the distributors and get sales stopped in America. The only reason they don't is there's nothing to legally sue Ganzo for. If Ganzo was violating any US patents, they would only be sold outside of the US. Ganzo is guilty of making cheap knock offs, which is done all the time. We don't like it, but unless they break some patent or copyright laws, they as well as many other companies will do that.
 
HappyDaddy said:
I've found that people either have a moral compass that I respect, or they don't. I've also found that I have little to no success in trying to adjust someone else's moral compass. Putting money in the till of those who steal the work of others is unambiguously wrong, but those of you with broken compasses aren't going to see that, no matter how hard we try to convince you.
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Oh, so now if someone does not agree 100% with your view on something, they might have a broken moral compass? Unbelievable.
 
Good morning CT I think it's more abstract than a straight up villian / hero archetype. I think stealing is wrong and I don't usually steal and don't want to be stolen from. But there are many modes of theft and most everyone is afflicted by them in one way or another. Now I do appreciate what you said about transparency and "ethical" businesses you are correct in that one cannot paint with that broad brush but us peasants do enjoy it every now and then to see some piranha snapping flesh off some fat fish and we especially like to see some of the mighty fall. Ozymandias.
 
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craytab said:
Please explain further. I'm not sure the premise of "robin hood" is used correctly in this analogy.
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Stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Silly.

If the designs and locks were so expensive normal people can't afford them, then it would be a different story.

Fact is, normal people CAN afford them and the Robin hood analogy is utter crap.

Try again.

Edit to add, I'm calling their poor logic silly.
 
There was a year in the 20th century when Americans with the backing of our government stole / appropriated / looted many millions from China, if anyone can name that year without a googling I will be very surprised.
 
shinyedges said:
Stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Silly.

If the designs and locks were so expensive normal people can't afford them, then it would be a different story.

Fact is, normal people CAN afford them and the Robin hood analogy is utter crap.

Try again.

Edit to add, I'm calling their poor logic silly.
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And just who would you be to determine expense regarding someone else?

Are you a short sighted narrow minded hypocrite? I personally would like to EDC an Emerson / ZT but I have a Utilitac.
 
trevitrace said:
He stole then sold?
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Exactly. The premise that stealing something and then selling it for profit is some how honorable is bunk, at least for folks who know right from wrong....

Also, politics. They don't play well here.
 
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