Just ordered a Ganzo g710

[craytab]

Well said brother!:thumbup: I too purchased a Ganzo 727 (inspired by the RATII) and was really impressed with the lock up, blade centering and the axis lock which was really smooth.

And there you have it. The Ganzo counterfeiting is working. This guy is calling the counterfeit axis lock an axis lock.

 

[shinyedges]

Well at least it's clear why companies like ganzo thrive. Some people don't give a rats ass about anything the company does.

I guess ignorance is bliss, but in this case it's not even ignorance. Society as a whole never ceases to amaze me.

 

[Hackenslash]

Is it possible that benchmade secretly owns ganzo through some holding group because no one has pointed out benchmades official response to this.


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I think the reason we don't hear a clear statement from Benchmade is because it's a very complicated issue for a number of reasons.

1. Benchmade doesn't own the Axis Lock patent. They are merely licensed to use it exclusively (maybe). The owners are McHenry/Williams and some other poor dude whose name I always forget. This probably limits the latitude that Benchmade has to protect, or not protect, the patent. I think any formal infringement action would have to be a joint effort between the licensee and the patent holders.

2. I say (maybe) exclusively because the Axis Lock has shown up on some other "legit" brands over the years. Shirogorov used an axis lock on early Tabargans and LionSteel (Daghetta?) has an axis model also. I don't know if these models are legit and produced under specific licensing. We don't even know what the terms of the licensing are between McHenry/Williams and Benchmade. Is LionSteel licensed to manufacture with Axis in Italy? They call it something different, I think with a patent pending, but it sure looks like an axis lock. Shiro in Russia? Probably not on the Shiro, but who knows?

3. Benchmade has never really had a spokesperson. We've all been spoiled by having a guy like Sal Glesser share the "inner workings" of Spyderco with us over various media. Benchmade is, and always has been, very quiet. This makes it tough to get clear and authoritative statements. We're left with idiots, like me, trying to infer and interpolate what another entity's stance is. The best we can do is gather small bits of data and assemble as clear a picture as possible.

4. If you scour the official Benchmade forums you can glean a little, widespread info there. There are many threads asking about the Axis License or "copy knives" and sometimes a Moderator will shed a little light while trying to give and answer that says nothing. Little by little you can put together what I think is Benchmade's position. A hundred little bits of data build the general picture that Benchmade is very unhappy with Axis Lock copying and feel that it has hurt their business. You get the sense that there has been some action behind the scenes, but there's never been a formal statement.

5. Assume for the moment that the Benchmade license is limited to manufacturing the Axis Lock within the United States. This would seem to make sense because even the H&K knives that use the Axis Lock have been manufactured in the USA. Without knowing the terms of the license, all we can do is speculate.

6. It was long rumored that Benchmade had contracted with SanRenMu long ago to manufacture knives, in particular the cheaper H&K knives in China. Somewhere on the Benchmade forums is a thread (now a few years old) with a Benchmade moderator clearly denying that SRM was currently making knives for Benchmade and that Benchmade was very disappointed with SRM over a soured deal. The earliest Chinese Axis Lock was on an SRM knife so it would stand to reason that they "learned" to make it while producing for Benchmade.

7. The idea of Benchmade pursuing deals behind the scenes, rather than by public litigation, is actually verified by Mr. Glesser to a degree. I'm not sure where it is, I think somewhere on the these forums, but Sal once sounded off about Benchmade using a Spyderhole. I'm only paraphrasing from memory but Spyderco was prepared to take action over Benchmade using the Spyderhole...on the old AFCK I think, but it was inferred that some agreement was made to allow the hole to exist on Benchmade knives. Curiously, the hole now only persists on the Griptilian, not on any new models. It's a shame too, opening with a hole and closing with an Axis is sweet!

So, in summary, we can glean that Benchmade doesn't like unlicensed use of the lock, but don't own the patent. They consider that unlicensed Axis Locks have hurt their business. They have a history of reaching "deals" under that table, rather than public litigation like Kershaw or Cold Steel.

That's really the best I can offer. I hope it helps.
Copies, counterfeits, clones and license infringement suck. All we can do, as enthusiasts, is to share the word and provide legit, competitive options for those lured by the "value" of a Ganzo et al.

 

[Neomentat]

Well at least it's clear why companies like ganzo thrive. Some people don't give a rats ass about anything the company does.

I guess ignorance is bliss, but in this case it's not even ignorance. Society as a whole never ceases to amaze me.

Business is cut throat, always have been, and the vast majority of people vote with their pocketbooks. You sir and others on this board are the extreme few in society. While I applaud you for your morals and ethics, please also understand that others have no obligation to live by those nor is buying a Ganzo illegal.

 

[craytab]

Business is cut throat, always have been, and the vast majority of people vote with their pocketbooks. You sir and others on this board are the extreme few in society. While I applaud you for your morals and ethics, please also understand that others have no obligation to live by those nor is buying a Ganzo illegal.

Right. It just hurts this hobby and community. Not to mention the legit companies and consumers who think they are getting an axis lock.

 

[jazub]

...Ganzo can not be beat on the value proposition ...shipped from China.

Don't let forum commandos bully you into doing something you want, buy it or not, it's your money and it's your decision, you're not breaking any laws here.

The newer models also have skeletonized liners and anodized hardware, all without an increase to price.

I hate these threads -and I got trolled into another one.

If somebody stole your car here and then sold it to somebody else in Honduras for an "amazing deal", would you be on board? If they threw in your lawnmower and mini fridge at no additional charge, would you be cool with that?

-And, furthermore, how the vapid marketing speak "value proposition" made its way into the down-to-earth knife enthusiast community will always mystify me.

 

[TTpower]

And there you have it. The Ganzo counterfeiting is working. This guy is calling the counterfeit axis lock an axis lock.

Ok i'll call it a Benchmade axis lock if that makes you happy

 

[craytab]

Ok i'll call it a Benchmade axis lock if that makes you happy

That just proves my point further that people are getting duped by ganzo's counterfeiting. So thanks :thumbup:

 

[ChainDragger]

Hi Chaindragger, welcome to BF.

Just want to say that although the real Rift is way more expensive, I think that if you paid for a Military (is it a genuine Spyderco?) then I would recommend you pay for a real Rift, they are a great EDC folder with excellent quality and an industry leading guarantee backing it up.
The Ganzo you are looking at is an example of straight out theft from Benchmades work and therefore quite reprehensible. Also the quality of materials and build is nothing like the real deal.

Yes the millie is real. I bought it from blade hq. I also have a Raven2, i liked that one so much i went to buy one for my dad and its like a unicorn now. I saw one for $100 on amazon but no thanks, I think I only paid like $55-60 for mine.

 

[Quiet]

How do you figure?

Please explain. I don't see anyone coming to Ganzo's defense here.

The entire first paragraph of Fanboy's post is exactly what I just said. Paraphrasing: "I mean, hey, I know it's wrong and that Ganzo steals designs, but hey, nothing wrong with buying a good knife at that price point, and hey, just because you can't afford the knife you actually want doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to have it! So, go ahead and buy the fake! Don't worry, it's not taking any customers away from any of the guys whose designs were ripped off! I mean, I have zero statistical data to back that assertion, but hey, if you can't afford the knife because it's too expensive, just buy a fake. No big deal."

Maybe you read into it differently. Ganzo steals other companies' designs and makes knives based on those designs. What they do would never be tolerated by an American company, yet for some reason they always get a pass from super low post count people who don't want to spend any money in order to have an actual quality product. Things that make you go "huh", eh?

 

[Quiet]

Is it possible that benchmade secretly owns ganzo through some holding group because no one has pointed out benchmades official response to this.


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What "official response" are you looking for? Someone who works for the company to call Ganzo out by name? Why would they do that? So that folks who don't want to spend any money on a good knife now know where to go look for a cheap and cheaply made copy?

 

[Hackenslash]

Yes the millie is real. I bought it from blade hq. I also have a Raven2, i liked that one so much i went to buy one for my dad and its like a unicorn now. I saw one for $100 on amazon but no thanks, I think I only paid like $55-60 for mine.

Knife Center shows the Raven 2 delayed by manufacturer. You might want to look at the Spyderco Tenacious. Very similar in size to the Raven 2, same type of lock, similar steel and generally widely available
http://www.knifecenter.com/item/SP122GP/spyderco-c122gp-tenacious-folding-knife-satin-plain-blade-black-g10-handles
You can find the Tenacious in blue, green and brown G10 for a little color in your pocket .

 

[Insipid Moniker]

The entire first paragraph of Fanboy's post is exactly what I just said. Paraphrasing: "I mean, hey, I know it's wrong and that Ganzo steals designs, but hey, nothing wrong with buying a good knife at that price point, and hey, just because you can't afford the knife you actually want doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to have it! So, go ahead and buy the fake! Don't worry, it's not taking any customers away from any of the guys whose designs were ripped off! I mean, I have zero statistical data to back that assertion, but hey, if you can't afford the knife because it's too expensive, just buy a fake. No big deal."

Maybe you read into it differently. Ganzo steals other companies' designs and makes knives based on those designs. What they do would never be tolerated by an American company, yet for some reason they always get a pass from super low post count people who don't want to spend any money in order to have an actual quality product. Things that make you go "huh", eh?

The thing that kills me is that there ARE actual quality products backed by reputable companies for similar prices. I can completely accept ignorance as an excuse, but beyond that I'm somewhat mystified. If nothing else, buying an inexpensive but branded knife gives you additional layers of protection and, as we saw with the "S30V" CRKT Knifecenter exclusive, not even a brand name and a highly reputable dealer can totally eliminate malfeasance on the part of extremely low cost factories, but at least those factors provide you with a very effective option to make it right. Does anyone really think Ganzo would issue a recall or refunds if we discovered that they weren't using the steel they claimed? Buying from reputable sources and companies helps protect you, not just them.

 

[shinyedges]

The thing that kills me is that there ARE actual quality products backed by reputable companies for similar prices. I can completely accept ignorance as an excuse, but beyond that I'm somewhat mystified. If nothing else, buying an inexpensive but branded knife gives you additional layers of protection and, as we saw with the "S30V" CRKT Knifecenter exclusive, not even a brand name and a highly reputable dealer can totally eliminate malfeasance on the part of extremely low cost factories, but at least those factors provide you with a very effective option to make it right. Does anyone really think Ganzo would issue a recall or refunds if we discovered that they weren't using the steel they claimed? Buying from reputable sources and companies helps protect you, not just them.

Like ganzo would ever admit to not using the advertised steel... he'll getting any public response from them would likely be like getting water from a stone. Looks like we're both mystified.

Personally, I doubt they use the steel they claim they do. Why would they? No one will do a damn thing if they used a cheaper steel and lied. They operate without oversight regulation.

And money being there primary objective makes me think they would will cut corners.

 

[symphonyincminor]

You can find the Tenacious in blue, green and brown G10 for a little color in your pocket .

I personally recommend the Tenacious or Rat 1, depending on your preferred opening mechanism, to anyone new to the hobby and wants a quality folder that won't break the budget.

Both of these models are wholly original designs, and about $10 extra than these counterfeit designs that have flooded the market in the last 3-5 years.

I carry this one at home after I put my EDC to rest. I own knives spanning from $20 to $600, but it's one of my absolute favorites:

 

[craytab]

How do you manage to sleep at night whilst Ganzo out there is deceiving millions of people everyday? you must be some kind of hero

I think you will find that making others the subject of a thread rather than the topic doesn't work well in this part of the forum. But to address the issue you have raised about the quality of my sleep, it is just fine. You see, I don't support the counterfeiting that a few here do. Rather, I side with the forum's view on counterfeits. They hurt the hobby and this community. You can disagree but you are wrong. The forum you are a member of says so. I don't worry about random folks buying counterfeit knives. But when they come here to praise and promote them I have no problem repeating the forum's stance and pointing out how wrong they are. You might even say I sleep better knowing that in a great community I am a part of scummy counterfeiting is frowned upon and I can help be a part of informing new people on the subject and also shunning those who come here to promote this counterfeiting garbage. :thumbup:

 

[Morrow]

How do you manage to sleep at night whilst Ganzo out there is deceiving millions of people everyday? you must be some kind of hero

Do not turn the conversation towards other members. Stay on topic or don't post.

The entire first paragraph of Fanboy's post is exactly what I just said. Paraphrasing: "I mean, hey, I know it's wrong and that Ganzo steals designs, but hey, nothing wrong with buying a good knife at that price point, and hey, just because you can't afford the knife you actually want doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to have it! So, go ahead and buy the fake! Don't worry, it's not taking any customers away from any of the guys whose designs were ripped off! I mean, I have zero statistical data to back that assertion, but hey, if you can't afford the knife because it's too expensive, just buy a fake. No big deal."

Maybe you read into it differently. Ganzo steals other companies' designs and makes knives based on those designs. What they do would never be tolerated by an American company, yet for some reason they always get a pass from super low post count people who don't want to spend any money in order to have an actual quality product. Things that make you go "huh", eh?

Not too long ago using terms like "fanboy" as you did earned a warning or infraction. Maybe I'm missing the flowery intent. Civil conversation or get points.

 

[craytab]

Is it possible that benchmade secretly owns ganzo through some holding group because no one has pointed out benchmades official response to this.


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I have asked benchmade. They are not cool with ganzo counterfeiting the axis lock. Another member (now banned as a returning troll) claimed benchmade said they were fine with it. I can post their response when I get home if you are truly interested but the whole premise is a bit ridiculous imo.

 

[Quiet]

The thing that kills me is that there ARE actual quality products backed by reputable companies for similar prices. I can completely accept ignorance as an excuse, but beyond that I'm somewhat mystified. If nothing else, buying an inexpensive but branded knife gives you additional layers of protection and, as we saw with the "S30V" CRKT Knifecenter exclusive, not even a brand name and a highly reputable dealer can totally eliminate malfeasance on the part of extremely low cost factories, but at least those factors provide you with a very effective option to make it right. Does anyone really think Ganzo would issue a recall or refunds if we discovered that they weren't using the steel they claimed? Buying from reputable sources and companies helps protect you, not just them.

I agree. People who buy solely based on price are...well, my candid thoughts on the matter will delve 100% into political territory, so I'll refrain.

 

[Quiet]

While I totally agree that Ganzo deliberately stole ideas to make knives, I can understand someone looking to buy a decent "quality" knife at the price point that ganzo sells at. Some people can't either A, justify spending $100+ on a knife or B, just flat out cant buy one period because of budget purposes. Kids, bills, life maybe just demands too much on the wallet to allow someone to spend some hard earned cash on a USA made blade. That shouldn't mean someone has to give up the idea of wanting a knife collection, or seeing knives as a hobby, no matter how expensive or inexpensive they are. The thing I see is, Benchmade, Spyderco, Lionsteel, etc (fill in mfr of a stolen design here) aren't losing a customer because that customer was never going to make that high $ purchase anyway. That being said, I agree that for a few $ more an Ontario, Esee, or Kershaw folder is a way better investment and better quality knife with an original design.

I just straddle the fence about the whole topic. I understand they're blatant rip offs of the knives we've come to learn and love, and that's why its upsetting to see someone steal the design. Its not genuine, and I personally won't buy them. But on the other side I see the person who's on the outside looking in and wants to experience some semblance of what we all enjoy. And for that reason, I wont shoot someones hopes and dreams down, no matter if they're misguided.

Morrow, that's the user's name. This is the post I was referring to.