Just wanted to let the folks at SOG know....

[dl351]

Alright! While we might not like some of the new designs, it does seem like Chris is a pretty good guy to count on at SOG.

 

[Kaizen1]

Thank you Chris for looking into this. In case anyone else at SOG is interested, here's a quote from another forum from Jean Lum, Bob Lum's widow on her thoughts about the SOG Fielder design:

Hello to all:
As Bob Lum's widow, I am the owner of all his designs. I hope to always maintain the integrity and legacy of my late husband and his beautiful work.....of coarse I am very biased.

As for the SOG saber tip type folder, yes that looks like a Lum design....do you think I'm getting royalty checks? Fat chance...... and I would never do anything about it because that was not Bob's way, as many of you know.

But what comes around, goes around or whatever that saying is.

Jean

 

[Kublai]

The SOG Fielder is a blatant copy of Bob Lum's design. By design, we are not referring to lock mechanism and materials, but the overall profile and shape, proportion, and linear contour.

In terms of copying material and construction, look at the Tomcat 3.0 LTD (carbon blade). It is a copy of Warren Thomas' M2 Folder in both materials/construction and blade profile.

 

[22-rimfire]

Good luck Chris on "digesting" the comments. Looks like there has been a flood of negative comments. I know you just work there, so I'm not expecting much from you. Spencer is the boss. Maybe I'll see you at the Blade Show.

 

[Kaizen1]

I know this may seem repetitive, but I wanted to put this all in one post hopefully for the convenience of Chris. These are the knives that I think SOG should address. I might add that merely showing that there is no legal recourse for the Spyderco, Benchmade, Bob Lum's widow, Beretta Knives or Warren Thomas will probably not win back the people on this forum as their resemblances appear to be too close for coincidence. I suggest that SOG show that their actions were done ethically as well:

SOG SOGzilla Large in "Dual directional prehistoric armor plate"

Spyderco Endura 4 FRN with "Bi-Directional Texturing®"

SOG Toothlock

Benchmade Rift

SOG SOGzilla Large SS

Spyderco Endura 4 SS

SOG Fielder

Bob Lum Custom Saber Tip Folder

SOG Tomcat 3.0 LTD (blade only). Blade description: "the LTD uses a technology that has previously been found only in custom knives [referring to Warren Thomas without giving credit]. The VG-10 blade is painstakingly laminated with carbon fiber...The one sided tanto grind (Kataba) [Chisel ground]"

Beretta Knives (production), Warren Thomas design Avenger II. Blade description: "tanto VG-10 blade with a carbon fiber laminate on one side, and a carbon fiber handle. [Chisel ground]"

 

[Cotherion]

Let's wait for what the SOG representative's got to say about this.I'm not sure I can stomach it if they say it's coincidence.

 

[Marlinaholic]

I love my SOGs and think its nice they are bringing back the old Auto Clip series as it was a good affordable beater knife that was very light in weight (though the old ones were AUS 6 Rc 56-57 while the new ones are 420 at 51-53 :grumpy, but I agree that this Endura copy is a mistake. What's the point? If someone wants a cheap Spyderco knock off, they can buy a Pika II! I think ALL knife companies could use a lesson in originality. Just think about it, Benchmade innovates and comes up with the AXIS lock, so Spyderco (ball lock) and SOG (ARC lock) do their best to copy it (SOG is actually the smoothest of the 3 and an improvement). Spyderco innovates the round opening hole so Benchmade grabs it and now so does SOG (with a built in crack!). SOG innovates the super low ride pocket clip, so Buck grabs it for their Vantage line (a good move, its a great idea). Kershaw was one of the few using the excellent Sandvik steel and now we see it in the Buck Avid (and soon again in a smaller version). My Ka-bar Folding Hunter with its oval hole and back lock looks mildly Spydercoish too. I think its ok to borrow design ELEMENTS here and there, sometimes that leads to great improvements in design, but when a company copies the WHOLE KNIFE (Pika II or this new SOG Endura) then its a real turnoff. I wouldn't want one of these new SOG Enduras anymore then I would want a Pika II for the same reason. Doesn't mean I won't buy other Benchmades and SOGS, but not those darn replica knives. Make more cool high quality stuff like my Spec Elite I that has the "SOG" look that is unmistakable.

 

[Cotherion]

Yup. I'd buy an upgraded Spec or Pentagon Elite (I or II, is fine by me) with titanium handles and steel spacers with PB washers. But copies like this turn me off from looking at the catalog at all.

 

[Kaizen1]

Here's another update. This is a post from Warren Thomas on another forum:

Its funny how SOG gave me a call a few years back about working with them . I had no interest is joining there teem and some how they have got a total copy of my work . It wouldn't be so bad if they at the least gave credit to the original designers but they act like there design teem did all the original designs for the new line up.
Im a little pissed off about this . They and many other people and companies rip off designs and profit from it and clam it theirs.
WT

 

[Chris@SOG]

After reading through the many comments here and on other threads and forums, I've had a chance to digest your thoughts and concerns- in turn, I passed those concerns onto Spencer (our founder and Chief Designer) to get his thought on the matter. Here is his response.



Thank you for your comments and input. Just to clarify a few misconceptions that we have seen in print lately- SOG is and always has been dedicated to producing innovative quality products with the needs of the consumer in mind. Since our inception in 1986, we have seen the industry evolve and grow. We are proud of the fact that we have been responsible, along with many others, in helping this happen. Today there are so many companies and individuals out there contributing to our great industry, and as a result many ideas appear across company lines; You can be assured that we at SOG work hard to protect our trademark and intellectual properties, while at the same time working to respect the intellectual property of others.

There are many many designs out in the market. We as designers and manufacturers individually contribute to the advancement of the industry as a whole through our innovations. As occurs with all industries, when a design feature becomes popularized , others within the industry look to build upon this innovation. A great example would be the hole in the blade that now is used by many companies- Did you know that this was originated by Scagel back in the 30’s? Or the tanto blade shape made popular in many tactical designs, which originated in ancient Japanese styling and now commonplace for many knife companies? SOG saw our bowie style folders spread though the industry, and the same can be said for other’s innovations, like the lock back, the liner lock, the interframe, thumbstuds, the invent of multi-tools, kraton handles, clips on knives, etc.

Indeed all knives have historical precedent. Although it is a very distinctive product in its own right, our SogZilla line did call upon previous generations of knives for inspiration. There is no chance of it being mistaken as it is emblazoned with the SOG logo, has a novel opening shape, distinctive dual directional handle pattern, and other design features which are unique to itself.

On another note we are concerned with the threat to all of the legitimate knife companies and knife buying public with the blatant copy and counterfeiting of products. There are people out there who are exactly copying a product, brand name, logo, and even packaging. We have seen this in greater incidence and are actively combating each and every occurrence.

We appreciate your passion and dedication to the knife category and to SOG. You can be assured that we will continue to push forward and contribute to the evolution of the industry as we create exciting new products.

Spencer Frazer
Founder and Chief Designer




I hope this helps alleviate any concerns you may have, or at the very least clarify SOG's official position on the matter. As always, if you have thoughts or concerns you wish to share on a one on one basis, you can always email me at marketing@sogknives.com.

Chris Cashbaugh
SOG Marketing Director

 

[Kaizen1]

So Spencer is claiming that all of the similarities just happen to be a coincidence. He must think we're a bunch of idiots. If this is the official stance of SOG, then they for certain have lost this customer for life. They've also lost anyone that I give knife recommendations to and they've lost anyone I can convince through the internet that they are liars and thieves and think incredibly low of the knife community in general. You've made a horrible decision Spencer and I'm sure with a concerted effort of the knife community, you'll feel it in your P&L statements in time.

Chris, if you didn't know it before, you know what type of person you're working for now. Ask yourself if you were working for Spyderco or even just a neutral customer, if you would buy Spencer's bs statement.

 

[knifedraw]

So Spencer is claiming that all of the similarities just happen to be a coincidence. He must think we're a bunch of idiots. If this is the official stance of SOG, then they for certain have lost this customer for life. They've also lost anyone that I give knife recommendations to and they've lost anyone I can convince through the internet that they are liars and thieves and think incredibly low of the knife community in general. You've made a horrible decision Spencer and I'm sure with a concerted effort of the knife community, you'll feel it in your P&L statements in time.

Chris, if you didn't know it before, you know what type of person you're working for now. Ask yourself if you were working for Spyderco or even just a neutral customer, if you would buy Spencer's bs statement.

I agree :thumbup:

 

[dangreco]

There's no need to get your panties in a bunch, guys. Just don't buy their stuff and I won't either. I was looking at a Trident but now am just going to get a Spydie Stretch instead.

 

[nutz_about_knives]

Spencer (our founder and Chief Designer) to get his thought on the matter. Here is his response.



You can be assured that we at SOG work hard to protect our trademark and intellectual properties, while at the same time working to respect the intellectual property of others.

No SOG is not doing that. It is violating the copyrights of other companies but cleverly changing the patent by a wee bit so as to avoid being sued. Just like how a "Adidas 3 stripe" becomes a "Adidias 4 stripe".

when a design feature becomes popularized , others within the industry look to build upon this innovation.

Downright admission of copying of designs. But when Mr Spencer meant "others", he meant "SOG". Nuff said. :yawn:

A great example would be the hole in the blade that now is used by many companies- Did you know that this was originated by Scagel back in the 30’s? Or the tanto blade shape made popular in many tactical designs, which originated in ancient Japanese styling and now commonplace for many knife companies?

Yeah we all know that, but we are talking about SOG copying the WHOLE KNIFE, not the Spydie hole, or integrating carbon fibre into a blade, or using the same type of handle as a Benchmade. What SOG did is to copy and paste a knife design and put it's stamp on it.

SOG saw our bowie style folders spread though the industry, and the same can be said for other’s innovations, like the lock back, the liner lock, the interframe, thumbstuds, the invent of multi-tools, kraton handles, clips on knives, etc.

Same as the point I made above. Nothing wroing with copying bits and pieces of other knives, but copying a WHOLE KNIFE is a blatant disgrace to SOG. If you look at the pictures posted the similarity between the knives is too similar to ignore.

On another note we are concerned with the threat to all of the legitimate knife companies and knife buying public with the blatant copy and counterfeiting of products. There are people out there who are exactly copying a product, brand name, logo, and even packaging. We have seen this in greater incidence and are actively combating each and every occurrence.

SOG now seems like the biggest threat to knife innovation and the new designs speak poorly of SOGs innovation. If it did bother to innovate SOG would have used bits and pieces of the knives and not copy WHOLE knife designs shamelessly.

Chris, like I mentioned before we don't blame you cause you are just the SOG representative, not the person designing the knives. However I feel that it is right for Mr Spencer to explain why there was an authorization to copy whole knife designs and give us an answer that is not crafted like a press statement.

PS: I can't imagine how SOG is going to present itself at the SHOT show.

 

[Kaizen1]

There's no need to get your panties in a bunch, guys. Just don't buy their stuff and I won't either. I was looking at a Trident but now am just going to get a Spydie Stretch instead.

There's nothing wrong with letting a company know that there are consequences for this type of behavior and there's nothing wrong with telling others about it.

 

[Vivi]

Here's someone else that won't be buying SOG.

 

[baz4life]

Typical response in terms of the corporate p/r smoke screen.

I'm done with sog for life

 

[Cotherion]

Coincidence... Can't say I didn't expect this answer. I'd have to say I'm disappointed.

I may be only one customer so the loss of my business probably won't be felt but I'm pretty sure there are many others who have ended their association with SOG.

 

[dl351]

Not quite the response we were hoping for...
I may still look into knives I like (such as the Vulcan), but SOG will not see a penny of my money toward the not-quite knock-offs. If those particular knives fail to make money, they'll dwindle and die.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I think I'm done with SOG unless they turn around in a BIG way. I'm really disappointed. :thumbdn:

Thanks, for relaying the news, Chris. I know I wouldn't want to be caught in the middle of this situation like you are.