Knock-Off, Counterfeit, Fake Bucks & The Americans Who Sell Them

Plumberdv said:
I agree with part of that Matt and disagree strongly with other parts. There's a big difference in a "reproduction/clone" and a "counterfeit". As long as a pattern isn't patented or the originator doesn't have a copyright of some kind, I don't think it's illegal to clone or reproduce it UNLESS the clone or reproduction is marked and marketed in such a way as to try to deceive people into thinking it is the genuine article.

Even a knife pattern that has never been part of Buck's line, but is marked with Buck's name, logo and is sold in an exact copy of Buck's packaging is still a counterfeit because it was marked and marketed that way in order to deceive the buying public into thinking it was made by Buck. When they use Buck's copyrighted logo, that is a pure violation and every one shown so far here has done that.
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Dave I agree with everything you just said and think we are saying the same things. I don't understand what you are disagreeing with. If the item is marked with the Buck name and copyrighted logo and packaged in the exact packaging it is a counterfeit and meant to deceive the buyer. But the "counterfeit" has to meet certain guidelines to qualify as counterfeit. You can't take a Ferrari Testarossa sign and slap it on a VW Bug and say its a counterfeit. There has to be a similar likeness to the products, other than it has 4 wheel and a motor.
 
In my opinion, if the knife is deliberately represented as being a Buck product, regardless of whether or not Buck ever produced one that looked like it, it's a counterfeit.

Heck, everyone on the planet knows what a VW Bug looks like and putting a Ferrari sign on it wouldn't fool anyone (except maybe a fool). Buck, however has produced so many hundreds of patterns that the average Joe buyer would have no way of knowing if the knife was real just by looking unless they have access to Buck's catalogs.
 
Plumberdv said:
In my opinion, if the knife is deliberately represented as being a Buck product, regardless of whether or not Buck ever produced one that looked like it, it's a counterfeit.

Heck, everyone on the planet knows what a VW Bug looks like and putting a Ferrari sign on it wouldn't fool anyone (except maybe a fool). Buck, however has produced so many hundreds of patterns that the average Joe buyer would have no way of knowing if the knife was real just by looking unless they have access to Buck's catalogs.
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Dave, I agree, and was exaggerating but with the example. The legal Bureaucracy is another story. it would be a whole lot nicer if there were no such thing as fake merchandise.
 
Oregon and all,

Let me explain future actions concerning discussion of this problem. Some call making a list of shame, as giving advertising to the fakers. Forum leaders think that you should post a thread in the G B and C forum when you encounter someone selling a fake. In that area naming names and listings is allowed. I would say one of you guys start it as a fake Buck thread and the rest of us then go there and add to it as encounters occur. Then when questions arise send folks to check that out.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/forumdisplay.php/699-FEEDBACK-The-Good-The-Bad-The-Ugly!

In OUR Buck Discussion area, we should never list an active auction or sale offer. BUT, we can show the photo and discuss and tell others how and why this knife is faked. You can say that you found the photo on a auction site or sale area or private sale, etc. But hold off giving any direct personal links here in the Buck forum. You can take clues on how this is allowed by viewing this Spyderco fake thread.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/796442-Spyderco-Fakes-amp-Knock-Offs-Info

Now up for discussion is the ongoing use of a regular update thread to show photo fakes or do we need to consider a sticky ? I say we start regular and if it grows and stays active we will consider sticky. How does that sound. Maybe just continue with this thread.

If this is not clear as mud let me know......

"To serve and protect" 300
 
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Matt,

I was impressed, I do not think I could have spelled 'Tessa- testarossa' much less 'Fea- ferrari'. I sometimes misspell on here. My dictionary (small book style) needs updated....

This leads to you guys discussing counterfeit or fakes. I usually say fakes for all of them. A counterfeit for me would be one that was a production design that is not Buck company/contractor made. Fakes would cover everything, and be easier to type. Just my opinion. 300
 
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mbjannusch said:
The problem I see here is that not all words are interchangable, counterfeit, knock off, fake, or reproduction don't all mean the same thing. By no means do I believe that the sellers of these knives aren't trying to sell you a counterfeit "BUCK brand knife". The product can be very similar without infringing on copyrights or breaking the law. If a product just looks similar and has similar packaging but not identical to the product that is produced by the original company it could be a reproduction or a knock off, which is not illegal, unless the item is being sold as the real thing (intention of the seller). Counterfeits or fakes look identical with identical packaging and sold as the real thing is illegal and is infringing copyrights. All of these knives are counterfeits, some are knock off. To be counterfeit they have to look identical to a model that Buck Knives makes, just because they look similar doesn't make it illegal. It is against the rules of the auction sites though.
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1. If you use "Buck" on a knife and you are not Buck or making a product for Buck, and import it into the U.S. to sell as a real Buck product it's a felony. They do not have to be "identical."

2. The feds use "knockoff" to describe counterfeiting or misappropriation of a trademark. Being clear about the labels - words - used to describe what is going on certainly would be important.
 
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mbjannusch said:
Dave I agree with everything you just said and think we are saying the same things. I don't understand what you are disagreeing with. If the item is marked with the Buck name and copyrighted logo and packaged in the exact packaging it is a counterfeit and meant to deceive the buyer. But the "counterfeit" has to meet certain guidelines to qualify as counterfeit. You can't take a Ferrari Testarossa sign and slap it on a VW Bug and say its a counterfeit. There has to be a similar likeness to the products, other than it has 4 wheel and a motor.
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If VW starts using Ferrari's trademark, It's not counterfeiting; its illegal misappropriation of Ferrari's mark. First Ferrari gets a a court order to cease and desist, and, usually, VW is also ordered to give up any profits made from use of the mark. If VW violates the order in the future, they will probably get criminal penalties - fines for the corporation and jail for decision-makers. Only Ferrari is entitled to use its mark, and Ferrari must defend their property or lose it.

When you import or sell goods with the purpose and intent of passing them off as the goods of another, and that is proven to the satisfaction of a jury, you face hard time - possibly decades.
 
Thomas

The VW/ Ferrari example was already discussed, in which I noted that it was an exaggeration. For you to pick it apart is a bit ridiculous. Really the only thing I agree with is your comment " Ferrari must defend their property or lose it". Same thing applies here. Buck needs to defend their property. By the way I read the same article when I did a google search.
 
Here's an example of what I would call a "clone" or a "reproduction". It's not a counterfeit, because it doesn't have "Buck" on it anywhere, wasn't represented as being a Buck and came in a plain white box.

It's just one that I believe the maker hopes that unsavy buyers will mistake for the real thing simply because of it's design. The differences are obvious if you know Bucks or have a 112 to compare it to, but many don't. It's a close enough match to fool less knowlegable buyers.

 
I was doing my best to make a distinction, not to offend. It is not, I think, a matter of degree ("exaggeration"). A product can look nothing like the "real" product, and still violate the law if a registered mark is used on the product. A copy represented as the real thing, use of the registered mark or not, is also unlawful but under a different body of law.

What article? The one(s) about prosecutions?
 
Plumberdv said:
Here's an example of what I would call a "clone" or a "reproduction". It's not a counterfeit, because it doesn't have "Buck" on it anywhere, wasn't represented as being a Buck and came in a plain white box.

It's just one that I believe the maker hopes that unsavy buyers will mistake for the real thing simply because of it's design. The differences are obvious if you know Bucks or have a 112 to compare it to, but many don't. It's a close enough match to fool less knowlegable buyers.

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Wow that one is close. I wouldn't know the difference short of no tang stamp, and I think only a collector of 112 would be able to distinguish.

I have mentioned it before on these "fake" threads, many of these I wouldn't know the difference, and even now that I am more aware than before I could still be fooled, as would anyone short of a serious collector, and my guess is that most of these are priced below serious collector value and the target market wouldn't have a clue it was fake.

I can't suggest the manner in which to go about it but I do think trying to create greater public awareness would be important. Other than maybe making a sticky "CAUTION of Buck fakes/counterfiets", that way if someone finds there way to the Buck forum they might see it.

It seems to me that it would be important to Buck to somehow "raise awareness" of this also, but at the same time not advertise for the crooks.

As mentioned earlier, how would I even know it wasn't a discontinued model or what have you? Spend hours researching a 10-20 dollar knife.

P.S.

I just read Pd's thread "Beware of fake Vantage Force models" I sure wouldn't have known the differences and would've fell for a deal.
 
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Here's another fine example of a clone. The top one is the real thing, the bottom is the clone. Again, no "Buck" on the knife anywhere and came in a plain box.



 
oregon said:
Another current seller of fake Buck knives, this one in Benton Kansas, link to finished auction: http://www.ebay.com/itm/BUCK-RED-PO...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

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For those that haven't seen one of these up close, here's an old picture of one with it's inspiration, an Alpha Dorado. Joe Houser asked that I send it to him which I did so they could look it over. His reaction was "pretty nice size, maybe we should build one that size" (or something like that).



 
Here's an auto conversion based on a 110 clone. Again, no fake Buck markings on the blade and a plain box, but it did come with the fake Buck sheath.



 
I cant but wander at bucks legal dept thoughts on this and the actions they take
wander if they would like us forwarding the fakes for sale to them?
 
The counterfeiters seem to have a love affair with the Alpha Dorado design, they just can't seem to get the size right for some reason. The seller of this is one (bottom knife) is about to take a big hit in his feedback and stars.

 
WTG Plumb.

Because the faker's activity is a felony I wonder how many vendors already have two strikes against them so that this enterprise, once busted & convicted, is their ticket to ride out the remainder of their days in custody? It can't really seem worth the risk for what is left on these sales.
 
oregon said:
WTG Plumb.

Because the faker's activity is a felony I wonder how many vendors already have two strikes against them so that this enterprise, once busted & convicted, is their ticket to ride out the remainder of their days in custody? It can't really seem worth the risk for what is left on these sales.
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I think the federal version of "three strikes' applies to "violent" felonies. The statute had something about violence in its title.
 
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