LARGE folder?

Hey, the native chief looks cool! I'd prefer that the knife not be a lockback -- I found my fingers rest right in the boye detent and compromise lock-up when held reverse grip edge in. This is an MBC after all (I hope).

BTW, 4.75"-5" blade seems like a nice size.


Joe
 
"Chinook" had a pic of the "Native Chief" on the "Rare Spyderco" thread. I bumped the thread, but didn't see the pic. Can anyone pull up the pic??



Blades
 
The Deacon's stretched Native looks good.
Nice job.

As I wrote in another thread, I have gone through 832 Native threads looking for a picture, similar to Deacons', of the Big Native done by Coho.
I found Coho's post but the picture had disappeared.

-----

Following Joe Talmadge's post regarding the inadvertent release of a lockback when held in the reverse grip edge-in, I tried holding my own Native that way.
It didn't feel too good.
Turning the knife around, edge-out, felt very good - in fact, very, very good.
However, this does not give Joe and others the edge-in orientation they want.

Personally, I sharpen the swedge of my Native, and so holding my Native in the reverse grip, with the lock in the palm of my hand and ostensibly edge-out, also gives me an edge-in orientation by virtue of my sharpened swedge.

In a previous thread, Sal dismissed a sharpened or sharpenable swedge as impractical, saying it would require a larger handle to shield the edge.
One can experience what that larger handle would feel like by simple closing their Native and holding it in their hand.
It feels gooood.
The ring and little finger wrap around that oval belly and hold the handle in the cup of the palm; the middle finger goes in the cut-out for the spydie hole; the index finger goes in the cut-out formed by the choil and handle; and, of course, the thumb goes on the top of the blade.

Want to try that in the reverse grip?
Go ahead, but open the blade and put the thumb on top of the handle.
Notice how the little finger fits into the choil-handle cut-out, and how the meat of the palm has plenty of distance and protection from the swedge.
Now, pump back and forth and see how the primary edge cuts going forward and the swedge cuts going in reverse.
Scary.
Formidable.

The next big knife, hopefully a Native, should have a sharpenable swedge.
Spyderco does not need to sharpen the swedge, which protects Spyderco legally and in terms of liability.
It also means people who live in localities which specifically prohibit double-edged knives can still buy the knife.

Most importantly, it means a regular guy like myself can sharpen the swedge and thereby possess a self-defense and otherwise everyday practical tool par excellence.

Incidentally, John Greco made a knife many years ago called the Persian.
I have one.
In fact, I bought two and gave one to my good friend, an LAPD detective, who treasures it.
Anyway, the Persian has exactly the same handle shape and contour as would the Native if it had enough belly in the grip to shield the swedge.
The Persian goes back and forth, point forward and point reversed, and it feels secure, comfortable and strong in the hand.

Make Spyderco's big knife a Native with a lockback, and call it the Native Son.

-----

832 threads about the Native.
Amazing.
 
Ken,

You're right, you can sharpen the swedge and then ostensibly have both edge-in and edge-out at the same time, but using a typical edge-out grip. However, I put a lot of stress on the inside edge, and knowingly working against the lock makes me nervous (in your suggested configuration, cutting with the inside edge generates pressure directly against the lock). I know sometimes the lock sees tremendous pressures, usually by accident; I can't see myself purposely working against it, though. For that reason, I'd still prefer an integral compression lock or something like it. Granted that my use might be too niche-y to worry about.

I will, though, add that while I think the x-large Native is awesome (though I wouldn't buy it due to issue above), I would rather that Spyderco design their megafolder from the ground up. In an odd way, I'll be a little disappointed if all they do is scale up a current model.

Joe
 
The pic at the link The Deacon posted looks a lot like it.
I haven't seen it for almost a year.
Let's see if the link to the picture posts:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=1721787

I understand Joe's concern about actually pushing into the lock.
I have a similar concern about losing true ambidexterity.

Joe used the words "compression" and "integral" together.
When I think of integral, I think of the Sbenza or Greco's folding Whisper.
Does the phrase "compression lock" always mean the same as "integral lock"?

To right-handers, a lot of things seem ambidextrous that don't seem so ambidextrous to left-handers.
That goes for several Spyderco designs.

What about that other lock?
The one with the ball?
Also, Extrema Ratio has a lockback that will not release unintentionally, due to a crossbolt on the lock.

I like lockbacks.
My wife says real men smell like jet fuel, and I say real knives have lockbacks. :)
 
Originally posted by Ken Cox
Joe used the words "compression" and "integral" together.
When I think of integral, I think of the Sbenza or Greco's folding Whisper.
Does the phrase "compression lock" always mean the same as "integral lock"?
Click to expand...

Ken, the original compression lock was made from a spring leaf cut out of the liner. In other words, the compression lock is a liner lock ... but with some important design improvements, that let the compression lock deliver what the liner lock only promised: strength and consistent reliability. An integral compression lock is to a compression lock the way a framelock (integral lock) is to a regular liner lock, i.e., the locking leaf is cut out of the handle itself instead of just the liner.

So "compression lock" does not meant he same as "integral lock" ... that's why I bothered to say "integral compression lock", to indicate that in a knife this big, with the forces generated on the lock, I favor the stronger integral version of the compression lock.

Joe

Joe
 
I sure would like to see a picture or an example of what Joe means.
Who makes one of these integral compression locks?
I still see a Sbenza in my mind.
 
Ken, I believe that's what an ATR is, acccording to Spyderco catalog anyway...

Loaded with high-tech features this is the consummate tactical folder. Drilled out of the Titanium handle and clip are several holes, lessening overall weight and positioning the thumb and fingers for Indexing the folder. An integral Compression Lock, comprised of part of the handle Scale presents few moving parts to wear out and categorizes the ATR as a Martial Blacdcraft rated lock strength folder.
Click to expand...
 
Ken, only Spyderco can make compression locks, so only Spyderco can make integral compression locks. If you start by picturing a Sebenza, that's okay. So picture the Sebenza, but instead of the lock cut-out being a retangular leaf, now picture it being shaped like a compression lock leaf (i.e., it has that odd finger on the end). Now, instead of the leaf just contacting the blade tang, now envision the standard compression lock pin, so just as in the regular compression lock, the finger is pinched between the blade tang and the pin. It's just a compression lock ... but integral.

Joe
 
I am not generally in favor of the RAD concept. I figure that if you're going to need something to cover a long blade you might as well get the benefits of having a larger, and therefore more versatile, handle on the thing.

However, I just had an interesting idea for a variation. All of the RAD-type designs I've seen have more-or-less conventional sheaths. Why not build one where the "sheath" is basically just a tip guard designed to cover the protruding blade and nothing else? Rig some kind of latch mechanism that locks it onto the handle but can be quickly released and poppped off. Maybe add a short lanyard to keep it from getting lost. And put a traditional clip on the handle to allow the whole rig to be carried easily.

For those who want a belt knife the clip could be made ambidextrous and modified to hook over a belt as well as a pocket. Or provide two different clips, one for pockets and one, more substantial, for belts.

Just a thought...

--Bob Q
 
This is a perfect example of what an integral compression lock is.

Linking from barefoot_simona's pictures, in this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=274568

DSC05836.JPG

DSC05828.JPG


Thanks, Simona -- apologies for stealing your pics, but they demonstrate this perfectly and they ARE beautiful photos. :)

-Jon
 
Thanks to Joe for the explanation, and to biogon for the pictures.
I went to Spyderco's site and looked at the drawings of the compression lock and after a few brain cells went up in smoke it made sense to me.
The tab on the leaf fills the space between the blade and the stop pin.
Very elegant.
And strong.

I could go for this type of lock if it had scales covering the liners and the leaf: I move a knife around a lot in my hand and I would like a little textured something between me and all those edges associated with the integral compression lock.
Not much; maybe a thin layer of G-10 or carbon fiber on both sides.

I noticed at the Spyderco site that Spyderco calls the lockback a forward lock.
That makes sense.
It also makes for some confusion, though.
I guess for awhile I'll write it as forward-lock/lockback.

In the end, though, I have to say, aesthetically I prefer the forward-lock/lockback for its symmetry; and, especially so since I have not had the problem with inadvertently opening a forward-lock/lockback.

Still, a beautiful knife posted by biogon.
I can see why Joe likes this type of lock.
Does the clip reverse to the other side?
 
Ken,

They're Simona's pictures, not mine! I just stole them. :)

She's a Spyderco Fiend of the First Order, I dare say.

Also, most compression locks ARE built with a thin liner and G10 scales cover the liner -- this happens to be the "integral" version, which, not surprisingly, is straight Ti slabs.

Apparently the Gunting, which has the "thin" compression lock liner with G10 scales, has been tested out to 800+lbs/in of reverse pressure.

That, combined with the direction of torque on the liner bar being more perpendicular and pinched between the stop pin and the tang, makes the lockbar surface very unlikely to slip due to a failure of static friction, the most common mode of failure in a Walker-style linerlock.

The compression lock is my new obsession. It's strong, reliable, much simpler and less prone to cloggage than some other lock types, and if made with Ti liners, corrosion resistant.

I wish Spyderco would let custom makers use it. ;)

The one problem that I see with it so far is the mechanism that keeps the blade shut -- since there is no Walker-style detent ball, there is actually a groove cut into the blade that the liner bar falls into. It's almost impossible to describe in text; even seeing it is hard to understand. The upshot though is that the closing detent power is extremely weak compared even to the detent ball, much less the Axis or a lock back.

-jon
 
Sal, I have been looking at this thread for some days, now, trying to picture a Camillus CUDA MAXX 5.5 or, better, a 7" version with an integral compression lock, a Spyder opening hole, and a Cobra Hood. If you could resape the hilt so that it had some sort of finger grooving in it, but retain the ability for the MBC types to reposition the hilt in their hands, sort of like the Li'l Temperance or the Gunting, then you would have a true, dyed-in-the-wool, A++, Number 1 Winner on your hands.

That is, if the price could be kept within reason. And therein lies the rub, as the Bard says. Because you would need a quality steel in a blade of that size and the hilt would almost HAVE to be made of titanium to keep the weight within reason, so you are now talking about VG-10 or S30V steel in the blade and machined titanium with some sort of thin but textured scales over it to ensure a proper grip in adverse circumstances. This whole thing is beginning to look like a minimum price to the public of $250-$300 or more and I have to ask if people will pay that for a Spyderco, even one like I described. I just don't know.

But it certainly sounds nice! Can anyone still here picture Jim March with one?
 
I'd be all over a 5" version of the Native Cheif, or even a 6" version. Do it! :D

I still like the integral (to the blade) guard concept, but a native chief would be coool! :D
 
I hope this post doesn't start a new page, 'cause I really like looking at the picture Coho pasted.
Thanks.

The regular Native in the lower half of the picture has a three and 1/16th inch blade.
That Native design sure gets a lot of capability out of an inch.

The large Native in the top of the picture has, I believe, a four inch blade.
Plenty.
Really.
Somehow a four inch Native equals a five inch anything else.
 
Originally posted by Ken Cox
The design of the Native puts a lot of knife into a relatively compact package.
A 4" blade of the Native design, with corresponding grip, would perform like a 5" blade of another design, all the while retaining the low profile and carryability of the Native.

Scale the Native up to 4", with attention to retaining the ergonomics and ambidexterity of the original Native, and give it MBC quality.
In regards to the MBC quality, I suggest skeletonized dual steel liners, a heavier-duty pivot, and the retention of the lockback.
Click to expand...

What he said! I'd buy one.
 
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