LETS SEE THOSE MAGNIFICENT HJ's

waynorth said:
Nice deal Dan!!

Here's an oldie!! Almost all punches are right-handed - designed to be opened with the right thumb!! This old "Union" HJ is the opposite - it's designed to be opened with the left hand!!View attachment 2523327View attachment 2523328View attachment 2523329View attachment 2523331View attachment 2523333
This knife was likely made by a short-lived company, Union Cut Co, Tidioute,
that only made knives from 1909 to 1911!! 😲 :cool:
Click to expand...
As a lefty myself, this is awesome!!
 
Campbellclanman said:
Charlie- now you have our attention !
Is this a new one to your collection?
What an outstanding Harness Jack Knife- especially to come from such a small window of the existing time period! 😮
Click to expand...
I've had it at least six - seven years, Duncan!! I was avidly seeking oldies back then - a little less so now!! They've gotten more difficult to find!!
 
waynorth said:
I've had it at least six - seven years, Duncan!! I was avidly seeking oldies back then - a little less so now!! They've gotten more difficult to find!!
Click to expand...
Yes they are aren’t they Charlie! To find one that hasn’t all of a sudden become a Harness Jack Knife a few weeks before becoming available- it’s quite sickening to see how prevalent this is becoming.

Charlie - you are the pioneer of recognising the beauty in a Harness Knife, and still known to be the leading Principle of knowledge with these Knives - and that’s in just on this one Pattern of knife we are talking about today let alone the others……,.

Did you see as many “ fake” or “one Pen taken out- and one punch added” knives out there in the earlier part of collecting Harness Jacks?

Since the regrowth thanks to you and all-over appreciation of the Harness Jack Knife - I am sure there has been a surging up of these types of “put togethers” by many sellers I could name because of the shortage that you speak of and these Seller’s who do work on a lot of their Knives taking advantage of the genuine short fall.

What have you seen over these last few years concerning this Charlie?
 
Campbellclanman said:
Yes they are aren’t they Charlie! To find one that hasn’t all of a sudden become a Harness Jack Knife a few weeks before becoming available- it’s quite sickening to see how prevalent this is becoming.

Charlie - you are the pioneer of recognising the beauty in a Harness Knife, and still known to be the leading Principle of knowledge with these Knives - and that’s in just on this one Pattern of knife we are talking about today let alone the others……,.

Did you see as many “ fake” or “one Pen taken out- and one punch added” knives out there in the earlier part of collecting Harness Jacks?

Since the regrowth thanks to you and all-over appreciation of the Harness Jack Knife - I am sure there has been a surging up of these types of “put togethers” by many sellers I could name because of the shortage that you speak of and these Seller’s who do work on a lot of their Knives taking advantage of the genuine short fall.

What have you seen over these last few years concerning this Charlie?
Click to expand...
I've seen a couple of fakes over the years, Duncan. I think I have even bought one accidentally (accidentally on my part!)!! But because my buying has slowed way down in recent years, I haven't seen any lately!! Because punches are made so differently from blades, I suspect it's a challenge to find a "donor" punch!!
Me being out of tune with the market, I probably don't see what you do! Has this faking really become more prevalent???
 
Charlie yes I do think so, which being a student makes it harder - sellers rarely give you the photos of springs matching the widths of blades and punches etc in an open position.

I have stopped buying from certain Sellers who seem to be prolific for “ having “ these knives. As well as the Harness Jacks I have purchased from them are simply not good.

I do see a few of late where I don’t go back to bid on them because they look not all that good 😞

I must admit I have a handful of HJ’s that once arrived have disappointed me greatly and this comes with buying over limited photos in auction sites as well as having higher hopes rather than higher levels of Knowledge.
.
To go to a knife show now and have them in front of you would be the ultimate. 😊
I just don’t get that where I am, but in saying that I have a Harness Jack Collection I’m so very proud of - especially with the help of some great people - which definitely includes you Charlie.
Harness Jack Knives and Sears I’m sure will always be the two main veins running strong here 😊👍👍
 
waynorth waynorth , It's interesting that you posted this! The Rider was my first CC SFO and my first HJ. It was a grail of sorts for me! As such, I collected as much information as I possibly could so I could remember "the times". I almost posted this compilation a while ago, but it felt inappropriate. I didn't want to come off wrong. But, maybe now is a good time! If you want me to take this down, please just let me know!!



Charlie's Blade Forums Quotes (paraphrased):
- The shield used to be an Empire exclusive, pre-WWI, as far as I know . . . !! Schrade adopted it for some of their commemoratives after WWII, and named it an Empire shield in their advertising!!!
- [The original vintage shield was] Made for Bingham, by Empire!!! Real nice!!!
- I see from the picture, the punch sits high enough to lift it by the shoulder!!! No EO necessary!!!
- [The etch will] just say "The Rider by CC" - with nicer letters!
- I think of [the shield] as an enhanced banner!! I've never seen it on a non-Empire knife!! Except for Schrade, who used it in the 1980s, and gave credit to Empire for the design, in Schrade's advertising!!
- [The pulls are] Perfect, If you ask me!! 8 1/2ish for sure, at least on mine!!! It is an 8 for sure - a bit hard to open!! But safe!!! Good for a punch!!!
- 250 of each handle, plus the leftover parts were made into Ebonies!!
- I have to say, I love these knives!! Bill found a nice grade of Gabon Ebony, which is hard to find these days; and the white bone is nicely finished - it has a translucence to it!!! The "Empire" shields make me nostalgic for the days when I collected that cutlery, and I see why the old cutlers favored that shield! These "Riders" have firm pulls and snap, essential to punch safety, and just plain satisfying to operate!!! Of course, Bill's/William's punch is pleasing to the eye - I have to test one soon. I have an "S" model ebony which I will carry and use!! More pics in the future!!
- The age-old debate; carry it or Safe-Queen it!!?? Ha Ha!!!
- Nice character in those handles!! Empire Knife Co. invented that shield well over 100 years ago!! Schrade used it in the 1980s, and gave credit to Empire, in their advertising!!!!!
- I was gonna use CC Rider, but since that name has 'non-family time' implications, as I looked it up, I reduced it to "The Rider"!! Who knows?? We might be going off to find the sunset with this one!!!
- Bill has promised me the forged punch from the Texas Camp Knife for my edition!!
- Sharpening an Empire Punch! They are essentially "hollowed-out" knife blades. The outer edge is sharpened at nearly a right angle - about 80 degrees. When it raises a slight wire edge on the inside, turn it over and lightly remove the wire edge with fine stone/abrasive, holding it up just enough to keep the nail-pull edge off the stone, maybe 5 degrees. I find it very easy, once you figure these things out! Always use fine abrasives, or the punch will wear out quickly for no good reason.
- Bill and his son William created that punch!! All of my previous ones were representations of previously patented punches from the very early 20th century!! "The Rider" punch was GEC's own 21st century creation, in 2016 for the Texas Camp Knife, and now for the 2023 "Rider!!" :cool:
- It's the largest Punch . . . , but the #54 knife is bigger/longer!!
- The punches were made in-house . . . !! William [Howard] made a new form for the forging, so the shape is a few millimeters different [than the GEC 98s]; but essentially/functionally the two are the same!! P.S. some punches will have "scale" on their inside surface, because like many antique HJs, they are nearly impossible to polish out!!
- Some of the best, buttery Gabon Ebony I've ever seen!! A great batch!!!
- They must sharpen easily, retain an edge and have a firm pull and snap!!
- So far, I've only seen one out of fifty or so, that has a slight blush of color!! . . . I like the pure Black, but I also like the variants!! :)
- Pure Black Ebony is beautiful, and color streaks show the life in the wood in a different way than the buttery glow of Blackness!! I can't decide which I like more!!?? :rolleyes: :cool:
- I have noticed that the inside curve of some of the punches on these #86s, have a bit of staining or scale! It is hard to polish that inside curve!! Remington, Schrade and others seem to have emphasized that staining somehow, making it a feature!! That's all I got!!! :rolleyes:
- Usually stropping the pile side, with some added compound, is enough [to sharpen a punch]!!! YMMV!!
- Never sharpen the "inside" edge - you will defeat it's curve-cutting ability!

My own personal notes:
- Blade Forums is arguably the largest online knife collector community. Charlie's alias on the forum is Waynorth. This is where the name of his cutlery company came from; Waynorth Cutlery.
- Charlie is an icon in the traditional knife community. He is so well respected that many companies are willing to produce small runs of knives for him under his brand. These are called Special Factory Orders, or SFOs.
- Charlie has been working with Bill Howard for quite some time. Bill is renowned for his workmanship and quality of knives produced, making them like they did over 100 years ago. Bill was a part of the Black Box Winchesters made by Queen in the 80s/90s. He started working at Queen in 1975, and left Queen in 2006 to start Great Eastern Cutlery, or GEC. Bill has made knives for Charlie at Queen and GEC.
- Charlie is responsible for the revitalization of the harness jack pattern, which had largely died out as no modern manufacturers were making them. He is also responsible for the popularity and revitalization of the barlow pattern.
- This 86 harness jack, The Rider by CC, is Charlie's 11th SFO harness jack pattern.
- Charlie's first harness jack was with Queen through Bill Howard in 2005. The second and third were also done by Queen through Bill. The fourth was the first made by GEC, which Bill Howard founded after leaving Queen. And all subsequent Charlie harness jacks SFOs were made at GEC. The 8th HJ was made in 2015, the 10th anniversary of HJ1. The most recent is this one, the 11th harness jack, made in 2023.
- Waynorth Cutlery famously brought back the "Oil The Joints" tang stamp. This is a throwback to old pocket knives from Sheffield England, arguably the origin of fine pocket knife cutlery. These old knives used this stamp to remind its users to oil the joints to prevent premature wear of the tang/backspring and retain the snap, walk, and talk of the knife.
- 861223P - 86 is the pattern of the knife frame, 1 stands for a clip point main blade, 2 means two blades, 23 is because the knife was manufactured in 2023, and P is for the leather punch.
- Only 2 other knives from Charlie had the Waynorth Cutlery and Oil The Joints tang stamps, the 93 lambsfoot and the Blackjack
- Charlie has stated that the ebony used on this knife is instrument grade
 
lithicus said:
I almost posted this compilation a while ago, but it felt inappropriate. I didn't want to come off wrong. But, maybe now is a good time! If you want me to take this down, please just let me know!!
Click to expand...
Please leave it up!! I am impressed and humbled that you have collected all this info!!
I just hope I haven't contradicted myself too often!!! :rolleyes: 😂
Thanks so much!!!
 
waynorth said:
Please leave it up!! I am impressed and humbled that you have collected all this info!!
I just hope I haven't contradicted myself too often!!! :rolleyes: 😂
Thanks so much!!!
Click to expand...
Oh, don't thank me! It took everything in me to land one of these direct from a dealer. But, I pulled it off and it did not disappoint in hand! Thank YOU!!

Hopefully some of these notes, especially the one about what degrees to sharpen at, help others. A lot of great information in there! I found the entire release cycle for these knives entertaining. Had a great time reading everyone's comments and participating!

🍻
 
lithicus said:
Hopefully some of these notes, especially the one about what degrees to sharpen at, help others. A lot of great information in there! I found the entire release cycle for these knives entertaining. Had a great time reading everyone's comments and participating!
Click to expand...
Wonderful information!! I'm glad you enjoy your first HJ so much!!!
One of GEC's best efforts, IMO!!!
 
lithicus said:
waynorth waynorth , It's interesting that you posted this! The Rider was my first CC SFO and my first HJ. It was a grail of sorts for me! As such, I collected as much information as I possibly could so I could remember "the times". I almost posted this compilation a while ago, but it felt inappropriate. I didn't want to come off wrong. But, maybe now is a good time! If you want me to take this down, please just let me know!!



Charlie's Blade Forums Quotes (paraphrased):
- The shield used to be an Empire exclusive, pre-WWI, as far as I know . . . !! Schrade adopted it for some of their commemoratives after WWII, and named it an Empire shield in their advertising!!!
- [The original vintage shield was] Made for Bingham, by Empire!!! Real nice!!!
- I see from the picture, the punch sits high enough to lift it by the shoulder!!! No EO necessary!!!
- [The etch will] just say "The Rider by CC" - with nicer letters!
- I think of [the shield] as an enhanced banner!! I've never seen it on a non-Empire knife!! Except for Schrade, who used it in the 1980s, and gave credit to Empire for the design, in Schrade's advertising!!
- [The pulls are] Perfect, If you ask me!! 8 1/2ish for sure, at least on mine!!! It is an 8 for sure - a bit hard to open!! But safe!!! Good for a punch!!!
- 250 of each handle, plus the leftover parts were made into Ebonies!!
- I have to say, I love these knives!! Bill found a nice grade of Gabon Ebony, which is hard to find these days; and the white bone is nicely finished - it has a translucence to it!!! The "Empire" shields make me nostalgic for the days when I collected that cutlery, and I see why the old cutlers favored that shield! These "Riders" have firm pulls and snap, essential to punch safety, and just plain satisfying to operate!!! Of course, Bill's/William's punch is pleasing to the eye - I have to test one soon. I have an "S" model ebony which I will carry and use!! More pics in the future!!
- The age-old debate; carry it or Safe-Queen it!!?? Ha Ha!!!
- Nice character in those handles!! Empire Knife Co. invented that shield well over 100 years ago!! Schrade used it in the 1980s, and gave credit to Empire, in their advertising!!!!!
- I was gonna use CC Rider, but since that name has 'non-family time' implications, as I looked it up, I reduced it to "The Rider"!! Who knows?? We might be going off to find the sunset with this one!!!
- Bill has promised me the forged punch from the Texas Camp Knife for my edition!!
- Sharpening an Empire Punch! They are essentially "hollowed-out" knife blades. The outer edge is sharpened at nearly a right angle - about 80 degrees. When it raises a slight wire edge on the inside, turn it over and lightly remove the wire edge with fine stone/abrasive, holding it up just enough to keep the nail-pull edge off the stone, maybe 5 degrees. I find it very easy, once you figure these things out! Always use fine abrasives, or the punch will wear out quickly for no good reason.
- Bill and his son William created that punch!! All of my previous ones were representations of previously patented punches from the very early 20th century!! "The Rider" punch was GEC's own 21st century creation, in 2016 for the Texas Camp Knife, and now for the 2023 "Rider!!" :cool:
- It's the largest Punch . . . , but the #54 knife is bigger/longer!!
- The punches were made in-house . . . !! William [Howard] made a new form for the forging, so the shape is a few millimeters different [than the GEC 98s]; but essentially/functionally the two are the same!! P.S. some punches will have "scale" on their inside surface, because like many antique HJs, they are nearly impossible to polish out!!
- Some of the best, buttery Gabon Ebony I've ever seen!! A great batch!!!
- They must sharpen easily, retain an edge and have a firm pull and snap!!
- So far, I've only seen one out of fifty or so, that has a slight blush of color!! . . . I like the pure Black, but I also like the variants!! :)
- Pure Black Ebony is beautiful, and color streaks show the life in the wood in a different way than the buttery glow of Blackness!! I can't decide which I like more!!?? :rolleyes: :cool:
- I have noticed that the inside curve of some of the punches on these #86s, have a bit of staining or scale! It is hard to polish that inside curve!! Remington, Schrade and others seem to have emphasized that staining somehow, making it a feature!! That's all I got!!! :rolleyes:
- Usually stropping the pile side, with some added compound, is enough [to sharpen a punch]!!! YMMV!!
- Never sharpen the "inside" edge - you will defeat it's curve-cutting ability!

My own personal notes:
- Blade Forums is arguably the largest online knife collector community. Charlie's alias on the forum is Waynorth. This is where the name of his cutlery company came from; Waynorth Cutlery.
- Charlie is an icon in the traditional knife community. He is so well respected that many companies are willing to produce small runs of knives for him under his brand. These are called Special Factory Orders, or SFOs.
- Charlie has been working with Bill Howard for quite some time. Bill is renowned for his workmanship and quality of knives produced, making them like they did over 100 years ago. Bill was a part of the Black Box Winchesters made by Queen in the 80s/90s. He started working at Queen in 1975, and left Queen in 2006 to start Great Eastern Cutlery, or GEC. Bill has made knives for Charlie at Queen and GEC.
- Charlie is responsible for the revitalization of the harness jack pattern, which had largely died out as no modern manufacturers were making them. He is also responsible for the popularity and revitalization of the barlow pattern.
- This 86 harness jack, The Rider by CC, is Charlie's 11th SFO harness jack pattern.
- Charlie's first harness jack was with Queen through Bill Howard in 2005. The second and third were also done by Queen through Bill. The fourth was the first made by GEC, which Bill Howard founded after leaving Queen. And all subsequent Charlie harness jacks SFOs were made at GEC. The 8th HJ was made in 2015, the 10th anniversary of HJ1. The most recent is this one, the 11th harness jack, made in 2023.
- Waynorth Cutlery famously brought back the "Oil The Joints" tang stamp. This is a throwback to old pocket knives from Sheffield England, arguably the origin of fine pocket knife cutlery. These old knives used this stamp to remind its users to oil the joints to prevent premature wear of the tang/backspring and retain the snap, walk, and talk of the knife.
- 861223P - 86 is the pattern of the knife frame, 1 stands for a clip point main blade, 2 means two blades, 23 is because the knife was manufactured in 2023, and P is for the leather punch.
- Only 2 other knives from Charlie had the Waynorth Cutlery and Oil The Joints tang stamps, the 93 lambsfoot and the Blackjack
- Charlie has stated that the ebony used on this knife is instrument grade
Click to expand...
Always great to keep LOTS of notes! Nice to see you put this together :):thumbsup:
 
Just starting off from Charlie's and my discussion on altered Harness Jacks, theres one example that is on a certain auction site now, has beautiful Bone - first glance kind of looks the part, but does it?
If any of you are looking at this Knife- I cant say too much to stay within our rules here on where to find this knife, but if you are bidding or thinking about it - Look at the Main Blade- Look at "where" the Swage work should have been on the Clip point and the Long pull looks awkward running into nothing.

When I first saw it I thought ..." Oh..." but then it didn't sit right.

To me the top of the Blade has been take down. Refer on google the number and manufacturer and description etc of that Knife and you will see examples of that proper numbered Knife come up that look significantly different, the price is going up on this knife and this is typical of a lot of Harness Jack Knives that come up for sale - we have to be extremely careful.
 
Campbellclanman said:
Just starting off from Charlie's and my discussion on altered Harness Jacks, theres one example that is on a certain auction site now, has beautiful Bone - first glance kind of looks the part, but does it?
If any of you are looking at this Knife- I cant say too much to stay within our rules here on where to find this knife, but if you are bidding or thinking about it - Look at the Main Blade- Look at "where" the Swage work should have been on the Clip point and the Long pull looks awkward running into nothing.

When I first saw it I thought ..." Oh..." but then it didn't sit right.

To me the top of the Blade has been take down. Refer on google the number and manufacturer and description etc of that Knife and you will see examples of that proper numbered Knife come up that look significantly different, the price is going up on this knife and this is typical of a lot of Harness Jack Knives that come up for sale - we have to be extremely careful.
Click to expand...
Not trying to be a know it all but according to the rules it is perfectly ok to link an eBay listing as long as it’s not yours. For educational purposes I definitely think it would be ok.
 
UHFOEP2.png
 
Campbellclanman said:
Just starting off from Charlie's and my discussion on altered Harness Jacks, theres one example that is on a certain auction site now, has beautiful Bone - first glance kind of looks the part, but does it?
If any of you are looking at this Knife- I cant say too much to stay within our rules here on where to find this knife, but if you are bidding or thinking about it - Look at the Main Blade- Look at "where" the Swage work should have been on the Clip point and the Long pull looks awkward running into nothing.

When I first saw it I thought ..." Oh..." but then it didn't sit right.

To me the top of the Blade has been take down. Refer on google the number and manufacturer and description etc of that Knife and you will see examples of that proper numbered Knife come up that look significantly different, the price is going up on this knife and this is typical of a lot of Harness Jack Knives that come up for sale - we have to be extremely careful.
Click to expand...

Is it this one ?


s-l1600.jpg



Found this as a comparison


image
 
SteveC said:
Is it this one ?


s-l1600.jpg



Found this as a comparison


image
Click to expand...
Punch on the top knife is longer than the comparison knife. Top knife's punch also looks like a different design.
(Admittedly the "different design" might be due to angle and lighting.)
Also, the punch on the comparison knife does not have the tang stamp.

Is the comparison knife legitimate? 🤔

The handle looks to be the same; One cover pin the same size as the center pin and one smaller. The location of the pins appear to be the same.

Did one of these have the punch replaced or the punch replaced a pen blade?
IF KaBar had a jack knife on the same frame/handle, I would suspect the comparison knife gave up its pen blade for a punch, since it may be a different design, is shorter, and there isn't a tang stamp on that side.

How long ago any blade swap took place is impossible to say.
Maybe a prior owner 20+ years ago had the blade swap done?
The Owner/Seller found a suitable punch and had it installed?
If the latter an excellent job blending in the new pivot pin to make it look the same age as the rest of the knife.

Oh well ... As Sgt. Schultz used to say "I know NOTHINK!" 😇
 
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