Lets see your Sanrenmus,Navys and Enlans

[Rhesus Feces]

:thumbup:

 

[cj65]

I tend to buy from the original manufacturer, rather than a copy. I cannot get excited about these knives. If I took the time to develop a product and it was a good product, I should reap the rewards, not a knock off company that is blatantly using the same production methods to undercut the original manufacturer. There is a law against it, even if the Orig. manu. chooses not to sue which takes time, money, and resources to do. I do not think that this thread belongs in BF, but that is just my opinion. Good for you Planterz.
Go ahead and buy a Chinese made knife, from a company that has their own design, but have some scruples and do not buy the blatant knock offs and then post reviews about them.

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

Strangely that who copies who is much more important than the act of copying. It has been said that some US manufacturer also copying others' design. However, as long as they have some original product, it is still acceptable, and the 'sin' is forgotten, discussion about their other products doesn't invite flaming.

Why it only applies to US manufacturer, and not China's?

Using Rolex as analogy is also a poor one. The fake Rolex is sold as if original and the brand is used to 'fool' people who might think they're getting one at half the price. Even if buyer is aware of the fake status, it bought with intent to make others perceive the wearer as wearing a Rolex.
In these Sanrenmu case, the brand is clearly marked as it is. The medium steel is also noted clearly. No user or others will perceive it as a Sebenza, or other famous brands.

There are other Chinese junk knives that are branded as CRKT, BM, etc. that's totally crap & unsafe to use due to poor construction. This endanger the user. These are made by fooling buyer they're getting good stuff while actually not. These are where the Rolex analogy applies.

Having pointed out the differences, the buyer & user of Sanrenmu here appreciate the build quality, the value they give for the money. In short, the knife as itself, not pretending as other famous brand. History repeats itself. Japan used to do that (copying) but they improve on it. The same can happen with China, although those producing the crap as mentioned above won't have the willingness to improve.
By producing quality product on their own brand, the strive to improve & moving away from merely copying. In fact, among the lines, exact copies are very rare.

 

[JAB]

I can't add anything to what Planterz said except "ditto".:thumbup:

 

[Planterz]

Strangely that who copies who is much more important than the act of copying. It has been said that some US manufacturer also copying others' design. However, as long as they have some original product, it is still acceptable, and the 'sin' is forgotten, discussion about their other products doesn't invite flaming.

It's not acceptable, it hasn't been forgotten, and it has invited more than a little heated discussion (and flaming). Go poke around old threads about the Benchmade 630/635, and the Cold Steel Black Talon, Black Sable, and G.I Tanto.

Why it only applies to US manufacturer, and not China's?

It doesn't. But when's the last time you saw an American company ripping off a knife designed by a Chinese company? There are Chinese made ripoffs of Swedish, German, Japanese, and Brazilian knives, just to name a few countries that aren't America.

Using Rolex as analogy is also a poor one. The fake Rolex is sold as if original and the brand is used to 'fool' people who might think they're getting one at half the price. Even if buyer is aware of the fake status, it bought with intent to make others perceive the wearer as wearing a Rolex.
In these Sanrenmu case, the brand is clearly marked as it is. The medium steel is also noted clearly. No user or others will perceive it as a Sebenza, or other famous brands.

There are other Chinese junk knives that are branded as CRKT, BM, etc. that's totally crap & unsafe to use due to poor construction. This endanger the user. These are made by fooling buyer they're getting good stuff while actually not. These are where the Rolex analogy applies.

I stand by my analogy. SRM, by all reports, is a competent manufacturer of decent quality knives, regardless of their low price. They are perfectly capable of creating their own designs. Indeed, some of their knives seem to be unique creations, or at least dissimilar enough to existing designs to not be considered copies. Yet they choose to directly copy many designs and market them as their own. BM/HK knives (using BM's patented AXIS lock), Spyderco's Gunting (with Spyerco's trademarked round opening hole), the CRKT KISS, etc. Far, far to many to list here.

Look at the Navy K-631 that brets-ftw posted. It's a Spyderco Rookie copy. The blade shape is typical of Spyderco. The handle styling is typical of Spyderco. It has the trademarked Spyderco round opening hole. It even has the David Boye indent on the lockbar like a lot of Spydercos. All that's "missing" is the Spyderco logo, but just because there's no logo, that doesn't make it not a knock-off. By all intents and purposes, this knife is made to look like a Spyderco. And it's marketed to people who want a Spyderco, would like a Spyderco, but don't want to spend the money on a Spyderco.

A fake Rolex, or any other watch, or any other knock-off product is doing just that. Pretending to be something it's not, at a fraction of the cost. Anybody who tries argue otherwise is making a justification and deluding themselves.

There's plenty of truly counterfeit Spydercos (and others) out there too, even using the names and logos. Obviously these are the lowest of the low. I would say that SRM is a step above this, but it's a very small step, and the differences are merely semantic and pedantic. Being the mold that sits atop the scuzz at the bottom of the barrel is nothing to be proud of. Plagiarizing only 90% of a term paper isn't much better than plagiarizing all of it. Again, anybody who tries argue otherwise is making a justification and deluding themselves.

 

[Dagon]

> I'd feel the same way if it was an American company ripping off another

Well, indeed, there are also:
- Benchmades with the Spyderhole. So, let's not buy Benchmade anymore
- The SOGZilla that looks a lot like an Enduras, but -pathetic differentiator- there is a slit from the back of the blade to the Spyderhole. So, let's not buy SOG anymore.
- I shouldn't even have to mention the Bradley Alias, a knife which -in contrast to the zero budget SR710- may have actually put a few people off buying the original classic
- The Kershaw Rocky Mt. Elk Foundation Wildcat Ridge looks soo very much like a Buck 110. Lo, let's not buy Kershaw anymore.
- In general, let's not forget all the manufacturers who implemented the Reeve Integral lock, instead of inventing their own locking mechanisms.
- etc

 

[Planterz]

And why does this surprise you? People don't give a crap if the maker is a phony or a wannabe that lied about combat duties in service of his country or if they cut up hanging meat for effect in crappy videos neither! Where you been Rat hiding under a rock? These issues mean nothing to people at all. All they are concerned with is if they can afford it, if they like it and if it works and is of a suitable build quality to last. Most don't know anything else about the history or care to ask about that when buying a knife.

You are so incredible obviously wrong. People do care. Maybe we're in a smaller percentage, but there are plenty of people that do care. Just because so many people might not care, that doesn't make when these companies do right. Two wrongs don't make a right, and thousands of wrongs don't make a wrong thing right either. It just makes a lot of people wrong

Oh and I want to add this for you as a reminder of something that was said to you the other day before you come in here with comments like these again. I think you know who said this to you. Take it to heart.

"You've got 18,000 posts, you need to start thinking about the effect you have in this community. People will see you and how you behave, and base their own behavior on it. Do you want to set an example where things go straight to flaming, or do you want to express yourself in a different manner while getting the same point across?"

Taken conveniently out of context. The "behavior" was in regards to a word he used that got edited out, quite possibly because somebody got their panties in a twist over it and reported it to the mods (but I'm not pointing fingers here).

STR, you've got nearly 12,000 posts, you need to start thinking about the effect you have in this community. People will see you and how you unashamedly support knock-off, rip-off, counterfeiting companies like SRM, and base their own behavior on it. But I guess you "don't give a crap".

 

[sharpenit]

Sanrenmu 710

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12112975@N03/5719346614/in/set-72157626599278997/

 

[Chris "Anagarika"]

@Planterz,

It is obviously forgotten, because not every thread about Benchmade, ColdSteel, invites such hatred. On the other hand every thread about Sanrenmu does.

The argument that BM & CS come up with their own design, applies to Sanrenmu as well.

So it's obviously biased by this aspect alone; the one copying is more a critical aspect than the act of copying.
It also seem you are not clear in your mind about fake & counterfeiting. This makes a very weak argument.

 

[Dagon]

Its ergo is excellent too for my mid sized hands.

I had this knife during a passaround, and I must say that I liked the looks but not the ergo. For me the curved handle never felt exactly "right" in the hand.

 

[Planterz]

@Planterz,

It is obviously forgotten, because not every thread about Benchmade, ColdSteel, invites such hatred. On the other hand every thread about Sanrenmu does.

The issues regarding Benchmade have long since been resolved, and ones about Cold Steel have been done into the dirt so many times before that new discussion usually gets locked down because it's all been done before. But some have longer memories than others, obviously.

The argument that BM & CS come up with their own design, applies to Sanrenmu as well.

The issue with Benchmade was that the 630 and 635 had a circular opening hole, a Spyderco tradmark. This was because the knives were based on a custom knife by Neil Blackwood which used the opening hole. This was later resolved, and BM now uses the Spyderhole under license.

I don't remember if the Black Sable/Black Talon issues were ever truly resolved, but they're discontinued knives now, so arguing about them is like whining about Sammy Sosa's corked bat 8 years ago.

So it's obviously biased by this aspect alone.

Or maybe it's just because it's recent and fresh in people's memories. A more appropriate statement would be "I haven't seen this much animosity towards a company that blatently steals designs since the Cold Steel Black Sable/Black Talon controversy 6 years ago."

 

[Planterz]

@Planterz,

It is obviously forgotten, because not every thread about Benchmade, ColdSteel, invites such hatred. On the other hand every thread about Sanrenmu does.

The argument that BM & CS come up with their own design, applies to Sanrenmu as well.

So it's obviously biased by this aspect alone; the one copying is more a critical aspect than the act of copying.
It also seem you are not clear in your mind about fake & counterfeiting. This makes a very weak argument.

> I'd feel the same way if it was an American company ripping off another

Well, indeed, there are also:
- Benchmades with the Spyderhole. So, let's not buy Benchmade anymore
- The SOGZilla that looks a lot like an Enduras, but -pathetic differentiator- there is a slit from the back of the blade to the Spyderhole. So, let's not buy SOG anymore.
- I shouldn't even have to mention the Bradley Alias, a knife which -in contrast to the zero budget SR710- may have actually put a few people off buying the original classic
- The Kershaw Rocky Mt. Elk Foundation Wildcat Ridge looks soo very much like a Buck 110. Lo, let's not buy Kershaw anymore.
- In general, let's not forget all the manufacturers who implemented the Reeve Integral lock, instead of inventing their own locking mechanisms.
- etc

This is all just more "everybody else is doing it" bovinefeces justification. Something that is wrong doesn't become right just because more might be doing it. The examples Dagon listed are erroneous and fallacious anyway. And off-topic since we're discussing SRM/Navys/Enlans.

 

[bobusx]

I wonder how many people are actually stopped from buying these kinds of knives (quality built, low price, but definitely questionable on the copy'n front) by the rage and vitriol directed at them. Some of you at least present your reasoning in a light that makes some sense. IE your against them because you don't like the copies. Still, every time someone calls them "junk" makes me want to buy a bunch and post pics so those same people go berserk and froth at the mouth. If you are gonna dis a company, at least put reasons that makes sense, other than "SRM is BADWRONGFUN, and you are BADWRONGSCUM for buying them. If it makes you that mad, don't post in the threads. If you want to talk someone out of buying them, then post like a reasonable human being, not a frothing rage beast.

I wonder if the goal of the supreme anger posts is to try to get the threads shutdown so people don't get tempted to buy the knives that have doomed all other knife manufacturers.

 

[mmarkh]

STR-

"Made in China" is one thing. "Ripped off by an unscrupulous company with no respect for intellectual property, lawful copyrights, and lawful patents" is another. It has nothing to do with the country of origin; I'd feel the same way if it was an American company ripping off another (*cough* Cold Steel *cough*). I don't give a tinker's cuss how good these knives are or how good a value they are, they are ripoffs, knockoffs, and counterfiets. Anybody who does this, and anybody who supports them are dirt in my opinion. And I don't give an airborne rodent's rectum that SRM makes knives under contract for Spyderco and others. That in no way excludes, justifies, or entitles them to these underhanded business practices. I used to have respect for you because of the mod work you do on knives. I still respect your skills, but a person, you have lost all of my respect.



We are rude and insulting? We? No. You. You are rude and insulting. You, shecky, STR, beta464, IGotStabbed, sh00ter01, brets-ftw, and the rest of ya'll are the ones who are rude and insulting, and I'm surprised that the owners and mods of the forums tolerate your conduct. People like Sal Glesser, Thomas W, and Chris Reeve take their time to interact with the people of this forum and have contributed more to the knife industry and community than any of us can possibly fathom, while SRM and their ilk only steal and contribute nothing. Every time you post a ripoff of one of their knives, it's a slap in the face to Sal, Thomas, and Chris, and others. And to top it off ya'll are even saying which companies and knives that are being ripped off. We're rude in and insulting? You're beyond that. You're farting in their faces while teabagging them. The reason why people like knarfeng, Rat, and myself can't leave threads like these alone is because you're pissing in the face of people and companies that made the knife world what it is today. People that we feel obligated to defend because they're good, honest, humble people that SRM take advantage of, while people like ya'll support, defend, and promote the raping and pillaging of those good people.

If I bought a $20 Fauxlex from a trenchcoat wearing guy on a street corner then went to a Rolex forum, posting pictures and bragging about my new watch, I'd get banned for trolling. And as far as I'm concerned, that's what the lot of you are doing. Trolling. Flaunting your ripoff, knockoff, counterfeit crap in the face of the hard working, giving, honorable men who got ripped off, knocked off, and counterfeited. You're all trolls. Unethical, unapologetic, unscrupulous, disrespectful, brazen trolls.

The practices of companies like SRM are disgusting and offensive. The people who support them are disgusting and offensive. All of you disgust and offend me. To the Nine Hells with the lot of you.

Well said. I agree completely.

 

[Planterz]

If you are gonna dis a company, at least put reasons that makes sense, other than "SRM is BADWRONGFUN, and you are BADWRONGSCUM for buying them.

If you can't understand, without being explained to like a 4 year old, why stealing is wrong, or even explained to like an adult why violating trademarks and patents is wrong, then there's nothing I can do for you.

 

[Dagon]

This is all just more "everybody else is doing it" bovinefeces justification. Something that is wrong doesn't become right just because more might be doing it. The examples Dagon listed are erroneous and fallacious anyway. And off-topic since we're discussing SRM/Navys/Enlans.

I wasn't clear or complete, I didn't want to bring the angle "everyone is doing it so why not", rather that SRM gets comparatively more flak than Spyderholes on BM, SOG Enduraclones etc, probably because they are made in far away.
Every time there is a thread on SRM (no matter the model discussed), someone will pour vitiriol on it. But this doesn't happen in every SOG or BM thread, far from it.
BTW, I have both a small Sebenza and the SRM 710. Yes there are a number of similar style elements, but they feel quite different in the hand. SRM make nice affordable gifts, in my opinion. My favourite SRMs do not have an immediately obvious western equivalent: the modern gentlemen knife 738 and the clever compact utility 763. My favourite bigger ones, the SRM 939 and sturdy Enlan EL01 are originals as well.

 

[bobusx]

Originally Posted by Planterz
STR-

"Made in China" is one thing. "Ripped off by an unscrupulous company with no respect for intellectual property, lawful copyrights, and lawful patents" is another. It has nothing to do with the country of origin; I'd feel the same way if it was an American company ripping off another (*cough* Cold Steel *cough*). I don't give a tinker's cuss how good these knives are or how good a value they are, they are ripoffs, knockoffs, and counterfiets. Anybody who does this, and anybody who supports them are dirt in my opinion. And I don't give an airborne rodent's rectum that SRM makes knives under contract for Spyderco and others. That in no way excludes, justifies, or entitles them to these underhanded business practices. I used to have respect for you because of the mod work you do on knives. I still respect your skills, but a person, you have lost all of my respect.



We are rude and insulting? We? No. You. You are rude and insulting. You, shecky, STR, beta464, IGotStabbed, sh00ter01, brets-ftw, and the rest of ya'll are the ones who are rude and insulting, and I'm surprised that the owners and mods of the forums tolerate your conduct. People like Sal Glesser, Thomas W, and Chris Reeve take their time to interact with the people of this forum and have contributed more to the knife industry and community than any of us can possibly fathom, while SRM and their ilk only steal and contribute nothing. Every time you post a ripoff of one of their knives, it's a slap in the face to Sal, Thomas, and Chris, and others. And to top it off ya'll are even saying which companies and knives that are being ripped off. We're rude in and insulting? You're beyond that. You're farting in their faces while teabagging them. The reason why people like knarfeng, Rat, and myself can't leave threads like these alone is because you're pissing in the face of people and companies that made the knife world what it is today. People that we feel obligated to defend because they're good, honest, humble people that SRM take advantage of, while people like ya'll support, defend, and promote the raping and pillaging of those good people.

If I bought a $20 Fauxlex from a trenchcoat wearing guy on a street corner then went to a Rolex forum, posting pictures and bragging about my new watch, I'd get banned for trolling. And as far as I'm concerned, that's what the lot of you are doing. Trolling. Flaunting your ripoff, knockoff, counterfeit crap in the face of the hard working, giving, honorable men who got ripped off, knocked off, and counterfeited. You're all trolls. Unethical, unapologetic, unscrupulous, disrespectful, brazen trolls.

The practices of companies like SRM are disgusting and offensive. The people who support them are disgusting and offensive. All of you disgust and offend me. To the Nine Hells with the lot of you.

Wow, I didn't even see that before my previous post. You sir, need to get a hold of yourself and get some perspective. If the manufacturer's really considered these companies a threat, they would either sue them or the importer's. Really, getting so angry over this is very childish, and actually quite sad. As low as you may think the buyers of these goods are, your behavior in this forum reflects even more poorly on yourself. Take a time out, count to ten, man up, and stay out of threads like these before your start threatening people's families or something. Not worth it man.

I will say though you are an excellent salesman. You and you specifically have convinced me to buy some of these SRMs, and distribute them to people I know, get the word out you know. I don't own any and wasn't really interested in owning one, but this tirade convinced me that I really need to check them out, if they are that good that their work is considered "raping and pillaging". Thats a pretty hot recommendation in my book.

 

[bobusx]

If you can't understand, without being explained to like a 4 year old, why stealing is wrong, or even explained to like an adult why violating trademarks and patents is wrong, then there's nothing I can do for you.

Your hostility is quite unbecoming. I wasn't against you till you went over the top. If you can't understand that you are acting like a 4 year old, than there is nothing I can or will do for you. Learn how to act like an adult, it will really help your case.

Also, if you actually read what I had wrote, I was actually considering you to be one of the ones with a decent argument. Of course, looking a little further in, I saw that you had gone off the deep end, rendering my earlier agreement moot.

 

[rprocter]

Does anybody who has posted in this thread actually KNOW who is copying whom ?
SanRenMu may have it's own design and engineering department that works with the other companies for whom they make knives and these designs are a result of this collaboration. Could even be that these so called "copies" are SRM designed and other knife companies request a copy with their own branding.
Unless you work for one of these knives companies, you don't know, you assume. Using assumptions as the basis for judgements is always risky.
If you collect Traditional pattern knives, you know that the knife business has long been "incestuous", going back at least 100 years. For example that a "Buck" branded knife may be a Camillus made knife. Traditional pattern knives frequently were not made by the company whose brand name it bears and how much input each company had in the design has never been absolutely clear to any except those directly involved.
roland

 

[Planterz]

Wow, I didn't even see that before my previous post. You sir, need to get a hold of yourself and get some perspective. If the manufacturer's really considered these companies a threat, they would either sue them or the importer's.

The Chinese get away with this kind of stuff because they're in China. Why Spyderco contracts to the same company that rips them off is beyond me, but it's not my place to condone or condemn Spyderco's decision. That's up to them. I will say that although I'll eagerly continue to buy Spydercos, none will come from China.

Really, getting so angry over this is very childish, and actually quite sad. As low as you may think the buyers of these goods are, your behavior in this forum reflects even more poorly on yourself. Take a time out, count to ten, man up, and stay out of threads like these before your start threatening people's families or something. Not worth it man.

Quit pretending like you know the slightest thing about me. I can't remember the 2 of us having any previous interaction. Funny that the only people that I've had any real prior conversation with, the people that I have mutual respect for, are the ones that agree with me. If you're the kind of person that supports thieves like SRM, then I couldn't give two defections about your opinion of me.

The comment about "threatening people's families" is off base and asinine beyond rational articulation. And I'm not angry. Disgusted, but not angry.

I will say though you are an excellent salesman. You and you specifically have convinced me to buy some of these SRMs, and distribute them to people I know, get the word out you know. I don't own any and wasn't really interested in owning one, but this tirade convinced me that I really need to check them out, if they are that good that their work is considered "raping and pillaging". Thats a pretty hot recommendation in my book.

Enjoy your knockoffs, and be proud that your money is supporting communist sweatshops, rather than going to hard working Americans, Japanese, or Taiwanese.