Lets see your Sanrenmus,Navys and Enlans

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Dagon said:
I love this sentence :)
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I think more accurately what people are doing is this. The vast majority do not know the difference between what they know and what they only think they know, or how to distinguish that from what they do not know at all. In fact thats the basis of all arguments here. No one knows a darn thing about what led to some of the other knives being shown here as the 'good' examples. You can't jump to conclusions based on hearsay, particularly third party or worse and you can't base decisions solely on a picture. Knife designs, particularly good ones do inspire and they influence others to continue on. This has always been the case. Know when to give the benefit of the doubt. Know when you know something and when you only think you know based on speculation and/or conjecture. More importantly know the difference between knowing, thinking you know and not knowing. Then maybe we'll get somewhere.

STR
 
That Vex vs 962 is even a weaker case than Buck 110 and the 'copies' (Schrade, & others). It is obvious tha the grind is different, lock & handle also different. Only overall blade profile & size about the same. The Buck case is even closer in similarities

Yet as Planterz admitted, no other thread draws such animosity like Sanrenmu.

My EDC:
SRM 710 black
SRM 763
SRM 723
Enlan EL 02
SAK OH Sentinel
SAK Spartan Lite
 
RevDevil said:
It is rather ironic.
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Bulls#@$, i like alot of your posts revdevil and i definatley like your honey badger, but im damn sure glad that law and morality are not equated. The reason is that morality is subjective and law is not, morality differs from person to person and culture to culture. Law is absolute and not subjected to someones morals or lack thereof. Morality is mainly a pathetic illusion used to justify someones baseless opinions, laws keep people from stabbing you in your sleep because morals do a damn poor job of that.
There are numerous examples of this but i think this thread has enough powder kegs in it already, id be more than happy to tlak about it VIA PM.


@planterz i agree with you almost entirley if for slightly different reasons. The problem is that you can lead a horse to water but you cant make it drink if it wants to dehydrate itself in a land of plenty then it most certainly will do just that.

@STR yet again some of these things are subject, i can only assume your speaking of one person when you mention the lying vet thing A) i never saw any proof that he lied B) i couldn't care less if he did. If you take offense to it but want a knife made by real operators get a greyman or a spartan. Also your prejudice against Ex-cons i find repulsive if a man cant bounce back from serving his time in jail in order to make a living for himself than what do you want for them to pay forever for what menial crime they commited? i personally couldnt care less if hed stabbed a few people to death in a drunken brawl, he and his company make some great knives and they are all original. I only have one of his knives but nonetheless i feel compelled to put my two cents in on this comment.

@bubsux Yeah half our stuffis chinese made alot of it is also made by blind people and convicts... If your a combat vet you should know just how grey most of the world is.
 
Planterz, I'm not even going to bother with quoting your first post. Just re-read it yourself and you tell me who's being rude ok?

At the end of the day the consumer has the choice, if they can get by with a $8 knife that may or may not be a copycat design, then so be it. You have no place to tell them what to do or not to do. With your tone you are expressing more than an opinion, please go disrespect someone else.

...and I just ordered the Elan EL02B and 2 others from Exduct :)
 
Planterz said:
Look at the Navy K-631 that brets-ftw posted. It's a Spyderco Rookie copy. The blade shape is typical of Spyderco. The handle styling is typical of Spyderco. It has the trademarked Spyderco round opening hole. It even has the David Boye indent on the lockbar like a lot of Spydercos. All that's "missing" is the Spyderco logo, but just because there's no logo, that doesn't make it not a knock-off. By all intents and purposes, this knife is made to look like a Spyderco. And it's marketed to people who want a Spyderco, would like a Spyderco, but don't want to spend the money on a Spyderco.
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Planterz your right its quite similar to the spyderco rookie, but at the end of the day its a knife just like any other, it holds an edge and does the tasks i ask it to. thats all that matters, if you feel that bad about it, im sorry i guess i should send an apology to sal for buying a knife that works, and possibly hoyt buck for using his lock back, and who ever created G10 for using that, for those who made the machines that create the texturing, the steel manufacturers, the physicists who defined matter, friction and all manner of physical laws, maybe i should also apologize to harley davidson since my friends his honda shadow 500 has a v twin setup just like what harley made famous, and the manufacturers of the supplies for my house, my dive gear, hell my parents and my brother for copying their image. maybe i should apologize to Brian R. Price for using his teachings on 14th century southern italian swordplay and the works hes done on Fiore Dei Liberi and Johannes Litchenhauer. to my teachers for using the skills they taught me. to the people who invented the screwdriver, nail, wrench, and drill. the fact is that my knife does well enough for me, i dont need to spend 5 times the money for something that will do better but not cost effectively. if someone puts out a product thats cheaper and performs the same (in my eyes) then i see no reason to spend the extra dough thats honesty tight enough as it is. capitalism is based on this, yes there is no ethics in it, but thats what makes our economy go round
 
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razorsdescent said:
@STR yet again some of these things are subject, i can only assume your speaking of one person when you mention the lying vet thing A) i never saw any proof that he lied B) i couldn't care less if he did. If you take offense to it but want a knife made by real operators get a greyman or a spartan. Also your prejudice against Ex-cons i find repulsive if a man cant bounce back from serving his time in jail in order to make a living for himself than what do you want for them to pay forever for what menial crime they commited? i personally couldnt care less if hed stabbed a few people to death in a drunken brawl, he and his company make some great knives and they are all original. I only have one of his knives but nonetheless i feel compelled to put my two cents in on this comment.

.
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My point in the post was exactly that people don't care about those things including whether or not the seller is an x con so where do you read a bias or prejudice in that? My point is it doesn't and shouldn't matter and really its no one else's business.. I never said I had a prejudice against x cons. My niece is an x con. Again a case of someone thinking they know something when they don't. In your last paragraph quoted here you used convicts as an example so are you prejudice against convicts?
STR
 
razorsdescent said:
Bulls#@$, i like alot of your posts revdevil and i definatley like your honey badger, but im damn sure glad that law and morality are not equated. The reason is that morality is subjective and law is not, morality differs from person to person and culture to culture. Law is absolute and not subjected to someones morals or lack thereof. Morality is mainly a pathetic illusion used to justify someones baseless opinions, laws keep people from stabbing you in your sleep because morals do a damn poor job of that.
There are numerous examples of this but i think this thread has enough powder kegs in it already, id be more than happy to tlak about it VIA PM.
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Thanks for that. I found that statement ironic merely because at one point in history (long ago) laws were the direct result of what the majority felt was moral (the right thing to do) and just. So much so they decided to convert that into the laws of the land. That is clearly not the case any longer, but there is a resounding undertone of "do what is right". I'll be brief as I do not want this to turn all political, I've never hid the fact that I won't use Chinese made knives, especially the ones that are mentioned in this thread. I'll buy knives from Taiwan & Japan though. Yes, there is a difference. But I digress as that is a topic for another thread.

I simply vote with my dollars, I do think that some of the newer people to this forum could use a little more exposure to various knives and some more reading before making some proclamations. No one knows it all, and we all learned however much or little we know now thanks to other people teaching us, guiding us, and showing us what was behind the knife in your hand. No need to add more dynamite to this mine. If someone wants to buy Chinese knives that strongly resemble original creations by other makers, that is their prerogative and I'll reserve my opinions of them out of respect for the community here at large. I will say that I agree with the general sentiment that Planterz laid out in his first post. I care where my knives come from and where my money goes, because I respect this community.
 
Honestly, I just like knives, especially flippers. Curiosity got the best of me, and I had to get one. I am actually looking less and less at production knives and focusing on customs/mid-techs, specifically Hinderers.

flippers.jpg
 
@BikerTrash - And the top left one is the Enlan EL-01, right? What do you think of it?
 
brets-ftw, that would be a RAM.

Dagon, right. It seems to be a well constructed knife, but I haven't really used it.
 
RevDevil’s last comment brings up one issue I have with this thread.

There has been at times a lumping of all knives made in China with those specifically made by the firms mentioned in the title of this thread. I feel, instead, that they fall into two categories.

On the one hand, there are knives American companies have commissioned to be made in China. These knives are designed by those firms, and their specifications are set by them. There is no theft of ideas possible, and American companies are making a profit. I consider this to be part of the global economy.

As for quality, my impression is that the Chinese will produce whatever you want to pay for, and oversee. If you’re Frost and you want junk to sell at gas stations for a buck, that’s what you get. If you want Spyderco quality, you provide those specs, some of the materials, and hire lots of inspectors. America makes cars that vary enormously in price point, and the quality shifts accordingly, as it should. Similarly, all Chinese knives are not the same.

In one recent thread, there were even strong objections to A.G. Russell selling knives he designed, but that he chose to have made in China. There was no question of copying; the objection was to American traditional patterns being made in China. I consider this jingoism, and possibly worse; would they have objected to such knives being made in Belgium? What about the original versions, often from patterns in British knives?

But then there are the knives mentioned here, which I consider a different matter altogether. I can accept a manufacturer adapting another knife’s ideas, but this goes beyond that. In many of these knives there is a little button up front that looks a lot like the release button on an Axis lock. I just looked at the Exduct site, and SRM #6261, e.g., explicitely states, in the product description, “Axis lock type.” The matter of Spyder holes has already been raised. I just can’t do that.

I will buy legitimate products made in China. I can’t sanction this, however.
 
There are just too many good american made knives to bother with anything made in china, I have had a few made in taiwan knives over the years but they are few and far between, id much rather push my dollars back into the u.s economy. Do i have thing sin my home that are made in china??? yes i do as well as brazil and mexico ETC but its nearly unavoidable espeacially at my income bracket... also there are imported things. i like chinese white rabbit candies and i have close family friends that are chinese is it wrong for me to get a bag of white rabbits at the local china town??? i think not.

I think the main problem here is two fold

A) there are good knives made in america or an allied nation that can be had relativley cheaply and will give back more fully to the poor u.s economy

and

B) that these are rip-off designs of very nice american made designs but due to the fact that the quality is higher than the generic CCC's (charming china cheapies for those who arent familiar with the acronym) people on will buy them and display them on the forum as though they were legitimate.


Its up to the buyer to draw the line at what they will and wont do, when I have the choice i buy american and i have bought a rip-off once in my life (condor tactical hoodie) because i already owned the high end (T.A.D gear ranger hoodie) one and i wanted a cheaper version to beat up and pack into my packs now that the LT version is out it will replace my condor.
 
STR said:
My point in the post was exactly that people don't care about those things including whether or not the seller is an x con so where do you read a bias or prejudice in that? My point is it doesn't and shouldn't matter and really its no one else's business.. I never said I had a prejudice against x cons. My niece is an x con. Again a case of someone thinking they know something when they don't. In your last paragraph quoted here you used convicts as an example so are you prejudice against convicts?
STR
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Because usually people birng it up just to start trouble on this forum its just one of those things that really only comes up when the fire-works fly. If you did not mena it in that way then i sincerely apologize for intoning that you had a prejudice.
 
ASBOB said:
RevDevil’s last comment brings up one issue I have with this thread.

There has been at times a lumping of all knives made in China with those specifically made by the firms mentioned in the title of this thread. I feel, instead, that they fall into two categories.

On the one hand, there are knives American companies have commissioned to be made in China. These knives are designed by those firms, and their specifications are set by them. There is no theft of ideas possible, and American companies are making a profit. I consider this to be part of the global economy.

As for quality, my impression is that the Chinese will produce whatever you want to pay for, and oversee. If you’re Frost and you want junk to sell at gas stations for a buck, that’s what you get. If you want Spyderco quality, you provide those specs, some of the materials, and hire lots of inspectors. America makes cars that vary enormously in price point, and the quality shifts accordingly, as it should. Similarly, all Chinese knives are not the same.

In one recent thread, there were even strong objections to A.G. Russell selling knives he designed, but that he chose to have made in China. There was no question of copying; the objection was to American traditional patterns being made in China. I consider this jingoism, and possibly worse; would they have objected to such knives being made in Belgium? What about the original versions, often from patterns in British knives?

But then there are the knives mentioned here, which I consider a different matter altogether. I can accept a manufacturer adapting another knife’s ideas, but this goes beyond that. In many of these knives there is a little button up front that looks a lot like the release button on an Axis lock. I just looked at the Exduct site, and SRM #6261, e.g., explicitely states, in the product description, “Axis lock type.” The matter of Spyder holes has already been raised. I just can’t do that.

I will buy legitimate products made in China. I can’t sanction this, however.
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Traditional knives on this forum have a much broader base than reglar locking folders on this forum. I think the notion of this being jingoism given the current economic state is a little bit of a stretch. If the US was where it was before the recession, it would be a more fitting term. Jingoism or not, there is a sense of integrity that most younger generations seemingly do not display or even have an understanding of what it really means. I'm not saying the knife community will pull the US out of the slump it's in, but if given a choice, I'll buy American, Taiwanese, German, or Japanese made knives. In the case of a television or computer, it's not like we have the same choices there now do we? That is the way it is with electronics, if we could do a better job at it, we would be the ones selling them to the world.

Very weak and sarcastic remarks that attempt to justify the reason for doing something and the end remark is "Why should it matter if everyone else does it?" or "maybe I should apologize to..." are just lame. As another member stated earlier in another thread and I loosely quote, "These are the same kids that think it's ok to rip a movie off the Internet, download a CD and not pay for it. They do not know any better and apparently were never taught. Those are the ones that do not last on these discussion forums". What is a nice consolation though, is that these members in our community do everyone a favor in readily identifying themselves as having zero integrity and even less understanding of what character is. It will make future interactions much more interesting. I will say that overwhelmingly loud ignorance is no excuse to absolve someone having no integrity.

The good thing about this whole discussion is that there will always be more people on these forums with integrity than those without & struggle to actually define it in themselves. It's sad that some people have the mentality "what does it hurt if everyone else is doing it too". :rolleyes:
 
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