Lets see your Sanrenmus,Navys and Enlans

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rprocter said:
Does anybody who has posted in this thread actually KNOW who is copying whom ?
SanRenMu may have it's own design and engineering department that works with the other companies for whom they make knives and these designs are a result of this collaboration. Could even be that these so called "copies" are SRM designed and other knife companies request a copy with their own branding.
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SRM has indeed a number of models that are sold in the west with western brand names associated to them. It's indeed not always clear where the original design was made. Well, in the case of a Böker Magnum, I am pretty sure that Böker took an sRM design and rebranded it. On the other hand, I don't know where the design for the Buck Nobleman has happened.

Even so, in all fairness, SRM has also a few knives that are obviously inspired by certain western design. The best known is of course the 710 which resembles the Sebenza somewhat (though I find that it is not a closer match than for example the Bradley Alias), but there is also the 702 (Klotzli inspired) and 613 (Mcusta money clip inspired).
 
Hell, I am in the military, so based on the rate the Fed's borrow, the commies prolly pay my Salary anyway. :P Not to mention that half the equipment I use ever day at work is chinese made too.

But I digress, variety is the spice of life, and I have plenty of high quality American made (or Taiwan made in the case of my Eros) knives and tools to enjoy too. Hooray for freedom!
 
rprocter said:
Does anybody who has posted in this thread actually KNOW who is copying whom ?
SanRenMu may have it's own design and engineering department that works with the other companies for whom they make knives and these designs are a result of this collaboration. Could even be that these so called "copies" are SRM designed and other knife companies request a copy with their own branding.
Unless you work for one of these knives companies, you don't know, you assume. Using assumptions as the basis for judgements is always risky.
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If this is the case, I'll gladly sheath my sword and walk away. But I really, really doubt that this is the case. For example, the Navy K608, which is a copy of the Gunting. The Gunting was a knife designed by Bram Frank and produced in collaboration with Spyderco. Now Cherusker Messer and Mantis produce Gunting style knives (neither of which use a round opening hole) designed by Bram Frank, and the Spyderco Gunting has been discontinued for years. Do you really think that Spyderco would give the OK to another manufacturer a knife designed by Bram Frank, or any other custom knife maker or designer they've collaborated with? Do you see Bram Frank's name on the Navy K608?

How about the K603 and K606? Do you think that Neil Blackwood gave Benchmade permission to allow Navy/SRM to produce copies of his Skirmishes? Unlikely.

Or the K622? Looks exactly like an Al Mar S.E.R.E to me. Does Al Mar have knives made in China? Did they ever? (genuine question here, but I'm guessing the answer is "no").

Or how about the K505, which looks rather a lot like a Surefire EW-8. Pretty sure Surefire doesn't have any of their knives produced in China. Not at those prices.

The SRM 604 is a Strider knockoff. And I know for DAMN sure that Strider doesn't have knives made in China.
 
Planterz said:
If this is the case, I'll gladly sheath my sword and walk away. But I really, really doubt that this is the case. For example, the Navy K608, which is a copy of the Gunting. The Gunting was a knife designed by Bram Frank and produced in collaboration with Spyderco. Now Cherusker Messer and Mantis produce Gunting style knives designed by Bram Frank, and the Spyderco Gunting has been discontinued for years. Do you really think that Spyderco would give the OK to another manufacturer a knife designed by Bram Frank, or any other custom knife maker or designer they've collaborated with? Do you see Bram Frank's name on the Navy K608?

How about the K603 and K606? Do you think that Neil Blackwood gave Benchmade permission to allow Navy/SRM to produce copies of his Skirmishes? Unlikely.

Or the K622? Looks exactly like an Al Mar S.E.R.E to me. Does Al Mar have knives made in China? Did they ever? (genuine question here, but I'm guessing the answer is "no").

Or how about the K505, which looks rather a lot like a Surefire EW-8. Pretty sure Surefire doesn't have any of their knives produced in China. Not at those prices.

The SRM 604 is a Strider knockoff. And I know for DAMN sure that Strider doesn't have knives made in China.
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Yeah, I have to agree that its pretty unlikely that the companies being copied are secretly the copiers. Maybe in one or two cases, but certainly not for all those.

I do wonder though, do the copyright laws in China make it illegal to make knockoffs for local consumption. I do believe that these knives were not exported by SRM, but rather by Americans who buy them wholesale in China and then sell them here. I would think those importer's would be vulnerable to legal action if the importation was not implicitly allowed by the U.S. copyright holders.
 
Alrighty, let's think about this a different way. The Fender Standard Stratocaster is made in Mexico. Now, would you think it's alright if those same people started producing and selling an "Amigo SR-1" that was nearly the exact same thing as a Fender Strat? Or would you think that was in general, NOT COOL, since it is very clearly Fender's guitar?

Support the economy you're in when you can. I'm not saying that other countries don't produce very good products as well, but if it's a choice between a knockoff SRM and the real deal...and you can afford the real deal...then do so. If you can't spend the money on the real thing, then it's no big deal to save up and then get it when you can. Nobody NEEDS a Sebenza, but they're definitely nice to have. You don't NEED a Sebenza so badly that you HAVE to get a knockoff to tide you over until the real thing.

Almost all of us here have knives as luxury items. "But my knife is a tool and I use it every day"...well, then why do you have 12 Enduras or 7 Chris Reeve knives? Bladeforums.com is about the passion of knives, in addition to very often collecting knives. I don't drive a knockoff car or wear a replica watch or use a faux HTC phone.
 
kipzroll said:
Alrighty, let's think about this a different way. The Fender Standard Stratocaster is made in Mexico. Now, would you think it's alright if those same people started producing and selling an "Amigo SR-1" that was nearly the exact same thing as a Fender Strat? Or would you think that was in general, NOT COOL, since it is very clearly Fender's guitar?

Support the economy you're in when you can. I'm not saying that other countries don't produce very good products as well, but if it's a choice between a knockoff SRM and the real deal...and you can afford the real deal...then do so. If you can't spend the money on the real thing, then it's no big deal to save up and then get it when you can. Nobody NEEDS a Sebenza, but they're definitely nice to have. You don't NEED a Sebenza so badly that you HAVE to get a knockoff to tide you over until the real thing.

Almost all of us here have knives as luxury items. "But my knife is a tool and I use it every day"...well, then why do you have 12 Enduras or 7 Chris Reeve knives? Bladeforums.com is about the passion of knives, in addition to very often collecting knives. I don't drive a knockoff car or wear a replica watch or use a faux HTC phone.
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Your example would be more accurate if it was made in Mexico, marketed in Mexico, and had a look inspired by the Fender, but not exactly the same, especially when it is using Mexican parts. Also, it is legal to do exactly that in Mexico, as long as you are not exporting it wholesale.

Still, it's certainly not moral, but I do think there are some minor mitigating factor's that make it less black and white.


Also, more pic's! I don't think I have seen one for two pages now, I need to see if anything catches my eye.
 
bobusx said:
Your example would be more accurate if it was made in Mexico, marketed in Mexico, and had a look inspired by the Fender, but not exactly the same, especially when it is using Mexican parts. Also, it is legal to do exactly that in Mexico, as long as you are not exporting it wholesale.

Still, it's certainly not moral, but I do think there are some minor mitigating factor's that make it less black and white.
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Well you hit it exactly on the head of what I'm trying to say: while it may just be just fine and allowed in another country, it's not necessarily right or moral. I agree that nothing is ever only black and white, but it still doesn't preclude the fact somebody else's hard work is being used for the gain of another in the case of knockoffs. Now, if there are agreements and contracts in place where these things are allowed by the parent company and copyright/trademark holder, then so be it. I have no problem with a company wanting to make money, but if they take my artwork or design and change it very slightly or not at all...well, I'm still going to be pissed.
 
kipzroll said:
Well you hit it exactly on the head of what I'm trying to say: while it may just be just fine and allowed in another country, it's not necessarily right or moral. I agree that nothing is ever only black and white, but it still doesn't preclude the fact somebody else's hard work is being used for the gain of another in the case of knockoffs. Now, if there are agreements and contracts in place where these things are allowed by the parent company and copyright/trademark holder, then so be it. I have no problem with a company wanting to make money, but if they take my artwork or design and change it very slightly or not at all...well, I'm still going to be pissed.
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And that is your right completely, and I would not blame you for feeling that way at all.
 
Here are most of my interesting cheap chinese knives, and 2 well-known western references for size comparison:

11bu59h.jpg


Left column (top - down)
- Victorinox alox Soldier, as reference
- SRM 738, splendid modern gentlemen knife with CF inlay and anodised liner
- SRM 763 variant with aluminum handles, practical and clever small utility folder
- Rough Rider Canoe with mother of pearl handle inlays. Really incredible value, this one. Lovingly made, a really chic gentlemen knife. Unfortunately there is ridiculous text on the main blade

Right column (top - down)
- Enlan EL-02B remarkably solid utility folder with nice G10 handles. Liners could have benefited from skeletonising, as it is rather heavy. Still it does feel sturdy enough. One more picture of this one below.
- Navy K509; gentlemen-like framelock (lock side is stainless steel, with clip).
- SRM 728, a really nice linerlock with wooden handles. Rebranded in the west as a Magnum. The green bits on the blade are reflections of my chili pepper plant.
- CRK small Sebenza, Insingo variant, for size reference.
You notice that many of these SRM knives are rather small, not ideal if you have big hands. In my case my little finger is half on the handle.

One more picture of the fullsize Enlan EL02B:
25fsozs.jpg

The G10 handle feels perfectly grippy. There is an equally nice variant with Micarta handle material. The knife itself is a curious mix of western influences that, unlike most fusion cuisine, works well in this case: a stonewashed blade that's Sebenza-inspired, an axis lock, and G-10 handle onlays over steel liners. It is really well made and in my opinion rather attractive. You'll need a special tool for adjusting the pivot, or you can simply make one with 3 nails and a cork.
 
Planterz said:
STR, you've got nearly 12,000 posts, you need to start thinking about the effect you have in this community. People will see you and how you unashamedly support knock-off, rip-off, counterfeiting companies like SRM, and base their own behavior on it. But I guess you "don't give a crap".
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This is funny. Because I draw the line in a different place I'm a supporter now? I see. Yeah, your're a funny guy! I like the knives of many companies. When I buy any product I do not owe you or anyone else an explanation for my purchase and I do not agree with your comparisons for which knives are copies and which are simply similar possibly knives influenced by others designs but they are certainly not the copies you present. If the 604 is a Strider clone it sure has differences to me because it looks to be a knife design with influence from Emerson and Strider perhaps but its not a copy of anything either company makes just because its similar. The Schrade LB7 was designed and obviously influenced strongly by the Buck 110 and the Geber Sportsman series along with many of the Kabar lock backs were designs with influence from the Buck and the Schrade as well as the others being done in that time. No matter what you buy there is always some wise guy that has a reason why you shouldn't have done it. Draw the distinction between new knife designs with influence from others ideas and note that they are still unique enough to stand alone. Influence is okay. Copy is not. All I see in most all of these cases you present is influence. Its a high form of flattery and not theft. There is a big diff. One could easily say that Mick Strider designed the folders they make with influence from the early Gerber Sportsman 1 folders. I guess he copied them changed the lock type and called it his own. Seems as strong an argument as you make to me.

STR
 
STR said:
This is funny. Because I draw the line in a different place I'm a supporter now? I see. Yeah, your're a funny guy!
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You buy them. You extoll their virtues on public forums. Yes. You're a supporter.

Influence is okay. Copy is not. All I see in most all of these cases you present is influence. Its a high form of flattery and not theft. There is a big diff.
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The AXIS lock is a patented mechanism by Benchmade, and the circular opening hole is a trademark by Spyderco (and expired patent). How can you claim that this knife below is not theft, even if you pass off the "influenced" aesthetic design (Benchmade Vex) as "flattery"?

BenchmadeVexandSanrenmu962.jpg

(beta464's picture)

You've ignored this when I mentioned it before, so I'm asking you directly now.
 
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Planterz said:
You buy them. You extoll their virtues on public forums. Yes. You're a supporter.



The AXIS lock is a patented mechanism by Benchmade, and the circular opening hole is a trademark by Spyderco (and expired patent). How can you claim that this knife below is not theft, even if you pass off the "influenced" aesthetic design (Benchmade Vex) as "flattery"?


You've ignored this when I mentioned it before, so I'm asking you directly now.
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Didn't see it before so ignoring it was not my intention. I never noticed it. I do not know the dealings or agreements that were made either verbally or written between the companies behind those knives where they worked things out with each other do you? For all I know they are sanctioned with some kind of passive agreement. It is obvious that these companies in question are still actively working with SRM knives to contract out their product for them. Seems mighty odd to me that these so called illegal copies keep showing up and the companies supposedly being stolen from keep working with SRM. Facts seem to indicate the manufacturers using SRM are fully aware of these knives being built and sold in China and Spain and other countries and if its a problem for them they are the ones that have to act on it not us. I don't see them acting on it. In fact it seems they've done the opposite and picked up business with SRM in most cases. Seems I read somewhere that these knives were made for other markets besides the USA but again its really not something I'm privy to anymore than you are and speculation is just that. It proves nothing. I don't own either of those knives and have not examined them.

SRM makes the Vex for BM so you can put two and two together to figure out where they got the pattern from to build the 962 model and if they have the Axis lock pattern they may have gotten plans for that in the DX files when BM shared them with SRM to build their knives for them and for all I know the SRM company may have permission to use it. What you are looking at could simply be one of the proto-types that was presented to BM when they were deciding on how they were going to do the Vex. SRM makes no secret of using the Axis lock and even advertise giving credit to BM for the locking device in their write ups on the products which all seems to indicate its all above board and they are proud of it and proud of working with BM. I never commented on either of those specific knives to claim any such thing one way or the other but its obvious it is a pattern given to SRM by BM. I made a blanket statement that influence by a maker or design is not theft. Obviously copy of a patented lock or hole would be a violation of some sort if permission was not given but consider this. BM has always had the Vex made for them by SRM. They worked out permission with Spyderco to do the opening hole back when the big flare up about this model occurred and all that is legit now. We know that much so it could be that the opening hole used by SRM is a permission granted type situation since the knife has always been made there. They had to receive some sort of a go ahead to keep making the Vex don't you think? I do not know that this is the case anymore than anyone else here. Again lets be clear its speculation but it seems to add up. These companies are after all still on good terms with each other and still work together. Only the owner of the patent or trademark could answer your question. Why ask me? For that matter only the owner of the patent or trademark that feels violated can pursue satisfaction legally if a wrong has been done to them. It is not our job to be judge and jury or police the IP of someone else. Truth of the matter is no one knows that anything has been stolen at all. They just assume that to be the case.

As for your top comment. I've bought some knives but I don't actively buy SRM or actively support all their products. In fact I've regularly supported the companies here in the states which get steady regular business from me. Your conclusion that I extoll their virtues just because I bought one or two knives and that this purchase means I support them is inaccurate. I call it as I see it letting the knives speak for themselves. I saw the SRM knives first when people that owned them were asking me questions about making clips or doing other modifications for them. I've bought a couple knives that I commented on , mostly to see what I'd be up against if I was to drill and thread some for folks and commented because the quality for the price did surprise me. I thought they were a lot of bang for the buck. I still feel that way today, nothing more nothing less. I said the same thing when I first owned a Persistence and a Tenacious by Spyderco. Come to find out both of those models as well as others are all made for them by SRM knives. I also bought a Schrade LB7, a Kabar lockback similar to a Buck 110 and couple Gerber knives very similar to the 110 back in the 70s all made and influenced or inspired by the original. These are closer copies of each other more so than many of your arguments. So at this time it appears SRM knives is building product and parts for Spyderco, Buck, BenchMade, Kabar, Boker, and a host of other manufacturers selling product here. Again it seems mighty odd to me that these companies would continue business with SRM if they were being robbed. That simply doesn't add up. You don't keep dealing with someone if they are stealing from you so it must be something else. Whatever the case its apparent the companies using SRM turn a blind eye to these other models showing up in the market.

STR
 
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Planterz said:
The AXIS lock is a patented mechanism by Benchmade, and the circular opening hole is a trademark by Spyderco (and expired patent). How can you claim that this knife below is not theft, even if you pass off the "influenced" aesthetic design (Benchmade Vex) as "flattery"?

BenchmadeVexandSanrenmu962.jpg

(beta464's picture)

You've ignored this when I mentioned it before, so I'm asking you directly now.
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Sorry I don't spend alot of time here so I must have missed your post,I never claimed the 962 wasn't a copy,clearly it is but guess what,this copy has better lockup than the Benchmade,better fit and finish than the Becnhamade and gets the same great design of the Vex,I could care less if it's a copy I want a good strong knife and the 962 delivers more so than the Vex.


UPDATE: I see this post wasn't meant for me,sorry about that.
 
Planterz said:
...We are rude and insulting? We? No. You. You are rude and insulting. You, shecky, STR, beta464, IGotStabbed, sh00ter01, brets-ftw, and the rest of ya'll are the ones who are rude and insulting, and I'm surprised that the owners and mods of the forums tolerate your conduct. People like Sal Glesser, Thomas W, and Chris Reeve take their time to interact with the people of this forum and have contributed more to the knife industry and community than any of us can possibly fathom, while SRM and their ilk only steal and contribute nothing. Every time you post a ripoff of one of their knives, it's a slap in the face to Sal, Thomas, and Chris, and others. And to top it off ya'll are even saying which companies and knives that are being ripped off. We're rude in and insulting? You're beyond that. You're farting in their faces while teabagging them. The reason why people like knarfeng, Rat, and myself can't leave threads like these alone is because you're pissing in the face of people and companies that made the knife world what it is today. People that we feel obligated to defend because they're good, honest, humble people that SRM take advantage of, while people like ya'll support, defend, and promote the raping and pillaging of those good people.

If I bought a $20 Fauxlex from a trenchcoat wearing guy on a street corner then went to a Rolex forum, posting pictures and bragging about my new watch, I'd get banned for trolling. And as far as I'm concerned, that's what the lot of you are doing. Trolling. Flaunting your ripoff, knockoff, counterfeit crap in the face of the hard working, giving, honorable men who got ripped off, knocked off, and counterfeited. You're all trolls. Unethical, unapologetic, unscrupulous, disrespectful, brazen trolls.

The practices of companies like SRM are disgusting and offensive. The people who support them are disgusting and offensive. All of you disgust and offend me. To the Nine Hells with the lot of you.
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You sir are making bold statements without knowing anything about me or my spending habits. And you are the one being quite rude for doing so.

So, let me fill ya in a bit so you can potentially understand. I’m a college student, money is beyond tight and I can’t afford to just throw it around. I usually buy American with Kershaw/ZT being my preferred company. With that said the Navy K-608 was the first Chinese knock-off I’ve bought. I bought it because I wanted to try the design and wasn’t about to shell out hundreds for something I haven’t handled and can’t find from any local dealer to handle. And after buying the clone, I can tell you I wouldn’t buy the real deal and am glad I didn’t.

As far as trolling, you’re the one jumping into a thread for the sole purpose of attacking those participating in it. Who really is the one trolling?

And as far as “made in china”, I buy American when I can, but let’s face it, its damn near impossible to avoid china made. Hell, I’m willing to bet the computer you’re on is either made in china or has components in it that are.

-sh00ter
 
Planterz said:
You buy them. You extoll their virtues on public forums. Yes. You're a supporter.



The AXIS lock is a patented mechanism by Benchmade, and the circular opening hole is a trademark by Spyderco (and expired patent). How can you claim that this knife below is not theft, even if you pass off the "influenced" aesthetic design (Benchmade Vex) as "flattery"?

BenchmadeVexandSanrenmu962.jpg

(beta464's picture)

You've ignored this when I mentioned it before, so I'm asking you directly now.
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You're reading morality into law when the law and morality are not the same thing. A patent is a set of rights granted by a government. The patent is for rights in the United States. SMR, Navy, Enlan, and Ganzo all manufacture and sell knives in China. They are not imported by those companies but instead by others like Exduct and sellers on eBay. What SMR and the others do is precisely not theft.
 
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