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The good ones are fine. I stay away from either, though, as the good and bad are both out there and are difficult to distinguish from one another.
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liner lock vs frame lock vs lock back BHQ video
- Thread starter D-R0CK
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The good ones are fine. I stay away from either, though, as the good and bad are both out there and are difficult to distinguish from one another.
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The lock back test was flawed, as someone already mentioned the wire was wrapped over the knife in front of the lock back mechanism essentially pinning the lock closed against the blade and helping it stay solid. In real world use you don't have 350 pounds holding the lock down, which is why I have had them fail and close on me before because the lock pops opens.
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I think a few of us are missing the big picture.
Folding knives are tough. Buy a good knife from a good company and use with confidence. Yeah the tests weren't super scientific but a demonstration.
If the failure mode of the liner/frame locks is to lock open I am pleased as punch, my fingers aren't getting cut. I'll send it back home and see if they cover it, if they don't whatever, I'd rather buy a new knife then pay co-pays on ER visits. The liner/frame locks I do own (ZT/Benchmade) lock up tight and I have confidence they will protect me in an unusual situation which is all I ask.
Folding knives are tough. Buy a good knife from a good company and use with confidence. Yeah the tests weren't super scientific but a demonstration.
If the failure mode of the liner/frame locks is to lock open I am pleased as punch, my fingers aren't getting cut. I'll send it back home and see if they cover it, if they don't whatever, I'd rather buy a new knife then pay co-pays on ER visits. The liner/frame locks I do own (ZT/Benchmade) lock up tight and I have confidence they will protect me in an unusual situation which is all I ask.
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Sunyata, you would have complete faith in the ZT0550 folder (gen 1 & 2)?
"If the failure mode of the liner/frame locks is to lock open I am pleased as punch, my fingers aren't getting cut. I'll send it back home and see if they cover it, if they don't whatever, I'd rather buy a new knife then pay co-pays on ER visits. The liner/frame locks I do own (ZT/Benchmade) lock up tight and I have confidence they will protect me in an unusual situation which is all I ask."
"If the failure mode of the liner/frame locks is to lock open I am pleased as punch, my fingers aren't getting cut. I'll send it back home and see if they cover it, if they don't whatever, I'd rather buy a new knife then pay co-pays on ER visits. The liner/frame locks I do own (ZT/Benchmade) lock up tight and I have confidence they will protect me in an unusual situation which is all I ask."
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I don't have complete faith in anything and I don't have a 0550.
I do have a 0566. Came from ZT with a near perfect lock up.
I'm not the biggest liner/frame lock guy but I did research what to look for in a lock that is not to spec. Mine do not lock up early, no play, no rock and fully engage every time. My knives are also not modified or altered by me.
"Mine do not lock up early, no play, no rock and fully engage every time."
Bought a cheap "Jaguar" brand, has no country stamp, probably made in China. My very first (and only) liner/frame lock. My other folders are 30-40 year old folders, Puma Game-Warrden and large Rigid.
Anything else about liner/frame lock you can share?
Bought a cheap "Jaguar" brand, has no country stamp, probably made in China. My very first (and only) liner/frame lock. My other folders are 30-40 year old folders, Puma Game-Warrden and large Rigid.
Anything else about liner/frame lock you can share?
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Ok. Kind of a small sampling. That's why there are so many variations, something for everyone. I've got an old buck 110 around here somewhere. Probably in a box.
Sure, I'm not the biggest fan of the liner/frame lock because of a pair of CRKT M16's I used to own. They were scary. Thankfully I ended up losing them and then wising up.
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Too many variables for my tastes, at least for making any kind of comparisons between anything. (Namely -the distances between the points of contact and the pivot areas for both the blades and the handles. These distances would have had to be the same for every knife in order for leverage to be equal, and they never addressed that important fact, so I assume there is quite a bit of potential slop in the variables.)
What was interesting was seeing when a knife did break, -how and where it broke.
What was interesting was seeing when a knife did break, -how and where it broke.
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It did at least indicate that linerlocks are potentially a lot weaker than the others; it was the only lock that completely broke, which is strange, considering that it should have, at least, the same amount of steel (And steel thickness.) behind the tang as the framelock. Comparing the way the framelock gave in, and the way the linerlock gave in, it almost seems as if the linerlocks hadn't been heat treated, or used a softer steel.
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That may be true, at least for the knives shown, but not even all liner locks are the same. Thickness, width, length, overall shape, and distance from the pivot can vary in liner lock construction, and here we have only seen three different liner locks. There are many more linerlocks with plenty of differences in construction. The sloppy variables in the testing, as well as the assumption that these knives can represent all others in their lock catagory only creates more questions than answers in my book. ymmv
In my mind we should test on a case by case basis, rather than conclude that the one can represent "all." By making these conclusions we could be doing ourselves a disservice.
In my mind we should test on a case by case basis, rather than conclude that the one can represent "all." By making these conclusions we could be doing ourselves a disservice.
Yep I think the type of failure is the best info from the video.
Making real world scientific tests is ridiculously difficult when you really break it all down when you have multiple (in this case probably dozens if not hundreds) of variables that you can never perfectly isolate, hence us physics people always using the "a spherical cow in a vacuum" joke. You would have to simulate a mechanical human hand to grip the knife in a realistic way then apply the force in a simulated human arm movement. As others have noted where you put the weight might help one lock type over another. You can't drill the handle to hang the weight or some handle designs are going to gain an advantage. Apply the weight over a wider area of the handle and weaker handle designs are not going to fail. If that 1/4" cable was a 2" leather strap none of the handles would have failed I'd bet. There's also the fact that if it's 3" handle the user is never going to be able to apply as much force compared to a 5" handle.
There's also the fact that some lock/knife designs are more likely to be compromised by the user themselves certain cutting situations, for example hard downward cutting your palm can depress a lock back bar, in twisting or very tight grips the users fingers can partly release a liner/frame lock bar as well. An axis or ball bearing, hogue lock I suppose could be released with certain hand positions when pulling rearward on the knife to dislodge it.
You can go further down the spiral and it never ends, which lock type works best when the knife/lock surfaces are wet, worn, frozen, full of sand, various force vectors, torque etc. etc.
In the end it wouldn't matter, most people still won't accept the results no matter how unbiased and detailed the scientific testing is. People have gone to ridiculous lengths to simulate real world performance testing of firearm bullet performance and archery broadheads for hunting, using ballistic gel and real bones, actual dead animals, years of live animal hunting results etc. etc. and people mostly still believe what they want to and to an even greater extent the marketing hype they are fed.
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Yeah, but the linerlocks were the only locks that actually broke -- 2 products from different companies -- and at the lowest weights out of all the locks, and in the same manner as I've seen posted by people on these forums. Why didn't the framelocks break like that? Or break at all?
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Did you watch the end? The framelocks broke as well just in a different manner.
All this shows is that even with the same mechanisms, not all knives or knife companies are created equal. It doesn't even really prove that because there's only one example each from certain companies, some of which aren't even the highest regarded companies.
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They didn't break though, they just got *slightly* bent. I guess you could say the linerlocks got bent too, but significantly more than the framelocks. None of the linerlocks looked remotely usable anymore, while all the framelocks did (As far as being locked, anyways.).
I forgot that the Spyderco went to 380, though. Still, the way the 2 other failed just makes them seem a lot weaker. As stated by others, it could have been because they were bad samples; but, does it not seem slightly more common that linerlocks break in that manner, compared to any other lock? Or is that just because there are more linerlocks out there? Not sure. I'd like to see them test a lot more framelocks and linerlocks, though. At least 5 of the same models from 3 different companies in both categories.
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Good edit.
The locks might not have bent as much but the actual frame did. Which is part of the lock, hence frame lock. Each liner lock and each frame lock broke (bent) in the same place and manner. The liner locks bent around the finger choil and the frame locks bent at the cut out. I wouldn't use any of those knives after this. Even the frame locks. Well maybe the Cryo. We have now learned how to make a folding fixed blade knife!
The locks might not have bent as much but the actual frame did. Which is part of the lock, hence frame lock. Each liner lock and each frame lock broke (bent) in the same place and manner. The liner locks bent around the finger choil and the frame locks bent at the cut out. I wouldn't use any of those knives after this. Even the frame locks. Well maybe the Cryo. We have now learned how to make a folding fixed blade knife!
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I would say that the other two examples are weaker and don't speak for liner locks as a whole. There is a big difference between a POS liner lock and quality liner lock. I believe that this video proved that if nothing else. The part highlighted in bold would be interesting to see. I would sub out 5.11 (I mean really..) and the CRKT. The former a lesser company (in terms of popularity and perhaps quality, cant speak towards that) and then the latter is one that feels the need to put a lock on their lock for a secure lock up. I did have a Hissatsu folder for a little while. Wasn't bad but nothing special.
As to where they broke, I guess that is just the nature of the beast.