Liu Kang (Dan Huang) - when is enough...well, enough?

[Chuka]

Well said Mr. Busse

 

[Infi-del]

When the discussion began more than a year ago as to how to define a dealer, I was inundated with phone calls from many of our customers who frequently “buy many and sell many” as to the difficulty they would experience in selling on the Dealer Forum if they were deemed to be dealers by Bladeforums, since everybody who was looking for a Busse Kin blade would now be looking on the Busse For Sale Forum. Liu Kang was only one of the many who expressed this concern.

Their concern seemed valid so I spoke with Spark about it and he agreed to allow all Busse Kin blades to be sold on the Busse Kin blades for sale forum. That way, there would be a clearly defined place for customers to look for a Busse Kin knife on the secondary market. If a dealer came across a Busse Kin knife through a trade or collection purchase, they would, likewise, be allowed to post it in the Busse Exchange forum. It made sense at the time. It was NEVER a case of us “sheltering Liu Kang”. It was a case of doing what seemed fair for everyone who was involved in selling or buying Busse Kin knives.

I personally believe Liu Kang is only concerned with his bottom line. Buying, selling, and trading among fellow Busse Lovers is awesome. I'm one of them. And there is a sense of friendship in that. Everyone knows there were one or two that were making a buck every now and again. But LK has taken it beyond that and made it a business... with IMHO dirty business practices at that. It doesn't reflect poorly on you Mr. Busse as you have no say in what LK does with your product after he's purchased it. But it most definitely sucked any friendship and fun out of the process. I for one don't frequent that forum much anymore. And LK is the reason. Now... that's just me, and who cares what I think?

From my point of view, I wasn't excited about a number of our customers being labeled as “Dealers” because I was afraid that new customers might think that these newly labeled “Dealers” were somehow sanctioned by Busse. They ARE NOT.

Allowing him in the Busse F/S Forum makes it look that way. Makes it look like He's getting special treatment and is above the rules the rest of us try to follow.

 

[Infi-del]

Really there's no good way to handle this. Liu Kang should have set up a website a long time ago, instead of relying on reposting threads over and over and over again. Confining him to the dealer forum isn't going to help if he does the same antics there, driving off other paying dealers... not to mention the existing rules already state that dealers are exempt from most of the rules that limit individuals. I hate to put posting limits in effect for a dealer as well.

Jerry called me up yesterday and asked if we should open a Busse dealer forum. I'm loathe to open a subforum for a single individual to use. There are no great solutions for this.

He's poison in this community. Ban him. Why is anyone doing so much soul searching and discussion over one member who has obviously taken the good nature of this community and crapped on it. He's poison to the Busse FS forum. You feel he'd be poison to the dealer forum. He's one member. Drop the hammer. IMHO anyway. I'm not the boss. You don't have to be justified... you own the place. Just squash him.

 

[knarfeng]

I spoke with Spark a few days ago and suggested a separate subforum for those who would be labeled as “Dealers” under BFC rules. He suggested that instead of a separate subforum, that Liu Kang and any others who move such large quantities of Busse Kin blades get their own websites and limit their listings on Bladeforums.

I think that this is probably the best solution. I spoke with Liu Kang about this and he agreed to pursue this course of action.

Sounds like "problem solved.".

So, now the question becomes, will this solve the problem and put an end to the vitriol? . . . I hope so. The name calling, accusations, and “piling on” needs to come to an end. . . . It takes the fun out of knife collecting and using, which is I hope, the main reason that we are all here.

I sincerely hope so. I'm not exactly certain which has been more of a bother. LK, or the threads about him.

On second thought, it's all the threads about him. I never go into the Busse Forum. I would be totally oblivious to LK if it weren't for all the protest threads everywhere else I go. (I'm sure they are great knives. That style of cutlery just isn't my thing.)

So I second the motion from Mr. Busse to let LK get a web site as he has apparently agreed to do, then just let it go.

Frank R

 

[LMT66]

His own website would be nice but if allowed to remain here on BFC, it still doesn't address his known shady business practices. He will lie without shame and misrepresent blade descriptions then tell the seller to send it to the maker for repair. Pocketing monies he receives from buyers for insurance then "self insuring" the parcel. Shill accounts to buy blades people refuse to sell to him. I'm sure there's plenty more.
He is a tumor on BFC and should have been banned long ago.

His major investment in blades and losing the #1 outlet to flip them is not this communities problem. His actions are of his own doing. He took the risk all his own. Quit catering to this guy.

 

[CarpScot]

Even if LK has a diminished number of listings here it doesn't change the fact that he has done what a lot of members consider to be dirty business. He has repeatedly shown that he is willing to lie or misrepresent in order to make a sale, and that he doesn't stand behind his transactions after they are made. Getting a website elsewhere isn't going to make him a good dude or push him to treat this community with a modicum of respect or professionalism. I'm generally not one to advocate the banning of an individual but if he is allowed to sell here in any capacity then I feel it does a disservice to Bladeforums and to all of the upstanding people that make this the place what it is. These thoughts extend to any dealer who engages in conduct similar to that of LK, I just haven't seen anyone else do it.

To the mods: My intent with this post is to comment on the policies that are/can be put in place here in regard to dealers. If you see this post as being out of line for the purpose of the thread then I'd be more than willing to edit it out.

 

[unky_gumbi]

I personally believe Liu Kang is only concerned with his bottom line. Buying, selling, and trading among fellow Busse Lovers is awesome. I'm one of them. And there is a sense of friendship in that. Everyone knows there were one or two that were making a buck every now and again. But LK has taken it beyond that and made it a business... with IMHO dirty business practices at that. It doesn't reflect poorly on you Mr. Busse as you have no say in what LK does with your product after he's purchased it. But it most definitely sucked any friendship and fun out of the process. I for one don't frequent that forum much anymore. And LK is the reason. Now... that's just me, and who cares what I think?



Allowing him in the Busse F/S Forum makes it look that way. Makes it look like He's getting special treatment and is above the rules the rest of us try to follow.

Unfortunately it does taint the Busse name even though Mr. Busse himself does not condone and is not responsible for LK's actions. The problem is assumptions, people assume LK is a Busse dealer so LK's bad practices reflect back to Mr Busse even though they are undeserved.

 

[Infi-del]

Unfortunately it does taint the Busse name even though Mr. Busse himself does not condone and is not responsible for LK's actions. The problem is assumptions, people assume LK is a Busse dealer so LK's bad practices reflect back to Mr Busse even though they are undeserved.

I don't disagree with you. However Mr. Busse didn't do anything to foster such an outcome. His biggest crime is making wonderful knives that everyone wants to own.

However I will agree along the lines that Mr. Busse as a business man would do well to avoid associating his company with the likes of Liu Kang in any way possible. I wouldn't have my picture made with the guy at any blade shows or the like were I Mr. Busse. It's a shame he has to worry about such things too. For all I've seen, and heard of the company and its history... Mr. Busse has conducted himself as a gentleman and created a fine product and marketed it like mad scientist.

 

[Infi-del]

Even if LK has a diminished number of listings here it doesn't change the fact that he has done what a lot of members consider to be dirty business. He has repeatedly shown that he is willing to lie or misrepresent in order to make a sale, and that he doesn't stand behind his transactions after they are made. Getting a website elsewhere isn't going to make him a good dude or push him to treat this community with a modicum of respect or professionalism. I'm generally not one to advocate the banning of an individual but if he is allowed to sell here in any capacity then I feel it does a disservice to Bladeforums and to all of the upstanding people that make this the place what it is. These thoughts extend to any dealer who engages in conduct similar to that of LK, I just haven't seen anyone else do it.

To the mods: My intent with this post is to comment on the policies that are/can be put in place here in regard to dealers. If you see this post as being out of line for the purpose of the thread then I'd be more than willing to edit it out.

His own website would be nice but if allowed to remain here on BFC, it still doesn't address his known shady business practices. He will lie without shame and misrepresent blade descriptions then tell the seller to send it to the maker for repair. Pocketing monies he receives from buyers for insurance then "self insuring" the parcel. Shill accounts to buy blades people refuse to sell to him. I'm sure there's plenty more.
He is a tumor on BFC and should have been banned long ago.

His major investment in blades and losing the #1 outlet to flip them is not this communities problem. His actions are of his own doing. He took the risk all his own. Quit catering to this guy.

Well put. I think the remedy is clear. To me at least.

 

[wolfmann601]

Are you a knife colllector if you buy and then sell all your knives to make a profit?
Collectors collect, Dealers sell for profit, no?

LK is beyond a Dealer, he is an Internet storefront with no overhead. Time for him to put together his own website.

Sounds like the fix is in the works, back to collecting for me!!

Have a nice day.

 

[Matteo Escobar]

His own website would be nice but if allowed to remain here on BFC, it still doesn't address his known shady business practices. He will lie without shame and misrepresent blade descriptions then tell the seller to send it to the maker for repair. Pocketing monies he receives from buyers for insurance then "self insuring" the parcel. Shill accounts to buy blades people refuse to sell to him. I'm sure there's plenty more.
He is a tumor on BFC and should have been banned long ago.

His major investment in blades and losing the #1 outlet to flip them is not this communities problem. His actions are of his own doing. He took the risk all his own. Quit catering to this guy.

Very well said. That's it.

 

[NPE]

i was wrong in my earlier post to associate a reseller with entire busse company

 

[kdstrick]

Sounds like "problem solved.".



I sincerely hope so. I'm not exactly certain which has been more of a bother. LK, or the threads about him.

On second thought, it's all the threads about him. I never go into the Busse Forum. I would be totally oblivious to LK if it weren't for all the protest threads everywhere else I go. (I'm sure they are great knives. That style of cutlery just isn't my thing.)

So I second the motion from Mr. Busse to let LK get a web site as he has apparently agreed to do, then just let it go.

Frank R

LOL... I couldn't agree more! Well put...



thanks for the laugh. :thumbup:

 

[Guyon]

So, now the question becomes, will this solve the problem and put an end to the vitriol? . . . I hope so. The name calling, accusations, and “piling on” needs to come to an end. . . . It takes the fun out of knife collecting and using, which is I hope, the main reason that we are all here.

I hope so too. The Busse subforum used to be pretty fun until LK showed up with his fake enthusiasm and his snake-oil posts. Name calling? Accusations? Maybe. There has been some over-the-top stuff, but there's also a strong foundation of truth in just about every negative post I've seen about LK.

I personally believe Liu Kang is only concerned with his bottom line. Buying, selling, and trading among fellow Busse Lovers is awesome. I'm one of them. And there is a sense of friendship in that. Everyone knows there were one or two that were making a buck every now and again. But LK has taken it beyond that and made it a business... with IMHO dirty business practices at that. It doesn't reflect poorly on you Mr. Busse as you have no say in what LK does with your product after he's purchased it. But it most definitely sucked any friendship and fun out of the process. I for one don't frequent that forum much anymore. And LK is the reason. Now... that's just me, and who cares what I think?

Yeah, what he said. Fact of the matter is that even if LK gets his own website, many folks won't be back in the Busse forum because LK will still be there, doing EVERYTHING he can within the limits to draw attention to his knives for sale.

 

[snowreaper1]

So, now the question becomes, will this solve the problem and put an end to the vitriol? . . . I hope so. The name calling, accusations, and “piling on” needs to come to an end. . . . It takes the fun out of knife collecting and using, which is I hope, the main reason that we are all here.

Thats probably something you should speak to Lui Kang about. His actions and inaction to change is what is causing this outcry from the BF community as a whole.
And I doubt LK is here for the fun of using and collecting knives but he sure seems like hes doing a great job sucking the fun out of Busse knife collecting for alot of people
on this forum.

 

[Trijicog]

the fact that jerry not only condones but endorses liu kang's asshattery is an indictment of busse as well. he could have easily put a stop to it instead of lobbying for the D-bag, and the resultant circle-jerk has made BFC as a whole a lot less fun than it used to be. get rid of them both.

Well,LK contributes a lot to keeping the value of Busse knives artificially high,I'm sure that's why Jerry likes him selling his wares on here.

 

[roughedges]

Well,LK contributes a lot to keeping the value of Busse knives artificially high,I'm sure that's why Jerry likes him selling his wares on here.

I doubt this. Neither Mr. Busse nor Busse Knives benefit much from possibly inflated secondary market value and definitely not from what most people would term LK's unethical and predatory practices.

There is no conspiracy here that I can see. People would continue to buy up Busse kin knives as fast as they can be produced even if every major speculator/dealer type were excluded from this forum. People like LK are just a temporary unintended consequence of Busse's (pretty friggen brilliant) business model.

 

[jtsharp]

We can all be mad at LK for what he does, but if he wasnt providing a service that at least some people were using, then he couldnt keep his business up. I have not and will not buy from LK because his prices are too high. If he wasnt getting customers, then the problem would solve its self. So I guess we can be mad at those who buy from him too...

 

[Trijicog]

I doubt this. Neither Mr. Busse nor Busse Knives benefit much from possibly inflated secondary market value and definitely not from what most people would term LK's unethical and predatory practices.

There is no conspiracy here that I can see. People would continue to buy up Busse kin knives as fast as they can be produced even if every major speculator/dealer type were excluded from this forum. People like LK are just a temporary unintended consequence of Busse's (pretty friggen brilliant) business model.

That's not a conspiracy at all..just a fact.A fact as in when someone sells something that is in limited supply for a much higher price than originally offered,it brings value of the the whole brand up.The whole Busse buying process is that people feel they need to buy it because they have no idea how long it will be available.It's a business model,and it works.If something is sold out,it creates a demand and higher prices..much like generators after a hurricane.

It all lies in line with HOW Busse knives are sold...Ganzas,knife shows,first come first served,not saying how many of a certain knife is produced,it all adds to the value of a brand.

It works with a lot of people,but it also turns plenty of people off.

Like me.

Busse knives in my opinion are one of the best,if not the best fixed blade knives made.I only own 2 Busse's now,and sold off two.I will end up keeping only one and never sell it.

Why ? I can afford to buy a lot of Busse's.

But what I don't have is the patience required to sit by the computer and send two emails to Busse during one of the Ganzas...Only hoping and not knowing if what I wanted is available,or 50% of what was being offered scooped up by one guy that will mark them up 30%..I am also not going to travel to a knife show in the hopes that a dealer with seemingly endless funds bought out the whole table,leaving only scraps and me walking away empty handed or with something that I bought just to justify going to a knife show.

So did LK have a bearing on why I don't spend thousands collecting Busse knives ? Absolutely.

Does LK business practice fall in line with how Busse markets their knives ? IMO,absolutely.

I'm sure Busse or LK will not be affected by my decision to NOT buy any more Busse's,it is just what I decided to do to save myself the frustration.Collecting knives is supposed to be fun,not a stress filled circus during an online Ganza.

 

[roughedges]

That's not a conspiracy at all..just a fact.A fact as in when someone sells something that is in limited supply for a much higher price than originally offered,it brings value of the the whole brand up.The whole Busse buying process is that people feel they need to buy it because they have no idea how long it will be available.It's a business model,and it works.If something is sold out,it creates a demand and higher prices..much like generators after a hurricane.

And it is also a fact that Busse's business model worked before LK arrived on the scene and will continue to work after LK exhausts his good will here and moves on to other profit centers. As an aside, have you seen that Busse has raised it's prices due to the inflated pricing in the secondary market? I ask because it kinda seems like your entire argument is based on this supposition.

So did LK have a bearing on why I don't spend thousands collecting Busse knives ? Absolutely.

Does LK business practice fall in line with how Busse markets their knives ? IMO,absolutely.

I'm sure Busse or LK will not be affected by my decision to NOT buy any more Busse's,it is just what I decided to do to save myself the frustration.Collecting knives is supposed to be fun,not a stress filled circus during an online Ganza.

So you think that Busse benefits from keeping LK selling but is not hurt by the loss of customers because of LK's antics? Color me .