"Made in Sheffield" 1830-1930, A golden age ?

[Will Power]

Very interesting knife indeed. As noted, thick scale slabs and a very nice backspring.

Names of knives can be treacherous as some people can be dogmatic about them, knives get names from makers, collectors latch onto a name and it gains currency. No idea if such a pattern existed but to my weak eyes it could be regarded as a Swell-Centre Sleeveboard? Sleeveboard tend to have the master blade at the broad end and other blade(s) at the tapering narrow end.

It appears to have a Whittler configuration. Its original name may well have been lost as knife fashions changed along with tastes, so only by luck in looking at very old catalogues can we find out if it had a different name or use. I suspect whittling to have been more popular in rural America than in England, except perhaps with schoolboys but this looks a quality expensive knife . Some well off gent's or lady's personal knife, Ivory even then was costly and prized but inherently fragile, hard use is an anathema to it. Others know the facts and years about makers which can be of help but the odd styling makes me suspect it is very old, mid Victorian.

Wonderful gem.

Thanks, Will

 

[Jack Black]

ed_is_dead Ed, very nice Thomas Turner. I'm just on my phone at the moment, but take a look at the Three-blade Penknives in the Thomas Turner catalogue posted in the stickie at the top of the page

Edited to add:

 

[ed_is_dead]

Very interesting knife indeed. As noted, thick scale slabs and a very nice backspring.

Names of knives can be treacherous as some people can be dogmatic about them, knives get names from makers, collectors latch onto a name and it gains currency. No idea if such a pattern existed but to my weak eyes it could be regarded as a Swell-Centre Sleeveboard? Sleeveboard tend to have the master blade at the broad end and other blade(s) at the tapering narrow end.

It appears to have a Whittler configuration. Its original name may well have been lost as knife fashions changed along with tastes, so only by luck in looking at very old catalogues can we find out if it had a different name or use. I suspect whittling to have been more popular in rural America than in England, except perhaps with schoolboys but this looks a quality expensive knife . Some well off gent's or lady's personal knife, Ivory even then was costly and prized but inherently fragile, hard use is an anathema to it. Others know the facts and years about makers which can be of help but the odd styling makes me suspect it is very old, mid Victorian.

Wonderful gem.

Thanks, Will

Fantastic bit of information there Will, thank you. I could do with scrubbing up on my knowledge of pattern names. Shadow and Sleeveboard are two I confuse for one.
I find the trademarks and corporate branding back then to be facinating. I suppose the creation of or naming of a pattern was a powerful sales tool then too.
As to aging the knife it looks like Jack did what I should have straight away. I'm still engrossed in and working my way through many sticky threads here, so much to learn!

ed_is_dead Ed, very nice Thomas Turner. I'm just on my phone at the moment, but take a look at the Three-blade Penknives in the Thomas Turner catalogue posted in the stickie at the top of the page

Edited to add:

View attachment 1669466

Wow Jack, and there it is, straight from their own literature! Can you read the description better than me? Have you a date for the brochure?
I must go read through that thread pronto, thanks so much

 

[Jack Black]

Wow Jack, and there it is, straight from their own literature! Can you read the description better than me? Have you a date for the brochure?
I must go read through that thread pronto, thanks so much

The brochure is from 1902 Ed

Levine lists the pattern as a Swell-centre Whittler, though, as he notes 'Whittler' is a modern collectors term, and it is not actually a 'true' Whittler. Old Sheffield cutlery catalogues rarely give much detail as to patterns, but as you can see, it was sold as a 3-blade Penknife

 

[ed_is_dead]

The brochure is from 1902 Ed

Levine lists the pattern as a Swell-centre Whittler, though, as he notes 'Whittler' is a modern collectors term, and it is not actually a 'true' Whittler. Old Sheffield cutlery catalogues rarely give much detail as to patterns, but as you can see, it was sold as a 3-blade Penknife

A true whittler having that Wharnie main with large swell to the spine is it?
3 blade penknife it is and good enough for me.
Thankfully I prefaced my date predictions as being wildly amateur lol. 119ish years old and (Edwardian?) it is.
Tha ks a mill for finding that, a trip to see it there and I can appreciate how it looked with its original main tip!

 

[Jack Black]

A true whittler having that Wharnie main with large swell to the spine is it?

There's more to it than that Ed, I'll give you a quote from Levine tomorrow. There are many types of Penknives, just as there are Jack knives

 

[ed_is_dead]

There's more to it than that Ed, I'll give you a quote from Levine tomorrow. There are many types of Penknives, just as there are Jack knives

I have a copy of Tweedale's on the way to me, does Levine have a book also I can order? Good to have a solid reference as I see so much is being lost to time. Case in point is an intresting James Bowden four blade senator on its way to me. Even Tweedale's is light on info.

I've seen some spectacular (what I understood to be.. ) whittlers from Saynor. Would love a stag example.
Look forward to your update.

 

[Jack Black]

Thankfully I prefaced my date predictions as being wildly amateur lol. 119ish years old and (Edwardian?) it is.
Tha ks a mill for finding that, a trip to see it there and I can appreciate how it looked with its original main tip!

While the catalogue is dated 1902, the firm almost certainly didn't just make that pattern that year. While I don't think Turner's ever got round to adding 'England' to their stamp (not on any of my later examples - as I say, I'm just on my phone now), they were fond of their 'Cutlers to His Majesty' stamp, and on a later 3-bladed knife, I would expect to see it. So, I think there's a greater chance that your knife was made slightly earlier than 1902, rather than later Happy to help Ed

 

[Jack Black]

I have a copy of Tweedale's on the way to me, does Levine have a book also I can order? Good to have a solid reference as I see so much is being lost to time. Case in point is an intresting James Bowden four blade senator on its way to me. Even Tweedale's is light on info.

I've seen some spectacular (what I understood to be.. ) whittlers from Saynor. Would love a stag example.
Look forward to your update.

Levine's Guide to Knives and their Values, if I remember the title correctly (it's late here, and I should be asleep). It's the best reference in terms of patterns. Volume 4 is acknowledged to be the best, but Volume 2, for example, has the same pattern descriptions I think, and it is easier to obtain

 

[ed_is_dead]

While the catalogue is dated 1902, the firm almost certainly didn't just make that pattern that year. While I don't think Turner's ever got round to adding 'England' to their stamp (not on any of my later examples - as I say, I'm just on my phone now), they were fond of their 'Cutlers to His Majesty' stamp, and on a later 3-bladed knife, I would expect to see it. So, I think there's a greater chance that your knife was made slightly earlier than 1902, rather than later Happy to help Ed

Noted re England.
So post 1901 might have been His Majesty 'till 1910. I have a couple Rodgers like that. Must keep an eye out for a Turner like that, I have a fair few, must check them...
Specific date aside I'm just chuffed to see it in an original catalogue!

Will see if I can get a copy Levine' s book. I bought Tweedale's on lulu, will check do they have it, thanks again Jack.

Levine's Guide to Knives and their Values, if I remember the title correctly (it's late here, and I should be asleep). It's the best reference in terms of patterns. Volume 4 is acknowledged to be the best, but Volume 2, for example, has the same pattern descriptions I think, and it is easier to obtain

 

[Jack Black]

Noted re England.
So post 1901 might have been His Majesty 'till 1910. I have a couple Rodgers like that. Must keep an eye out for a Turner like that, I have a fair few, must check them...
Specific date aside I'm just chuffed to see it in an original catalogue!

Will see if I can get a copy Levine' s book. I bought Tweedale's on lulu, will check do they have it, thanks again Jack.

I don't think Turner's had a Royal Warrant under Victoria, which is why you won't find it on earlier knives. They got their money's worth out of the 'His Majesty' stamp though, because, after Edward I, they were able to use it under a succession of other male monarchs.

Here's a couple of tang stamps from a stainless Thomas Turner Penknife.

An earlier version.

Tweedale's book is an absolute bargain, as you will see when you receive it I don't think you'll find Levine on lulu though

Going back to what BRL has to say about Whittlers:

"Whittler" is a modern collector's term that refers to a particular type of construction. Any pen knife with this construction is considered a whittler, regardless of its shape or construction.

"A Whittler is a three-blade pen knife with a large blade in one end and two small cutting blades of equal length in the other end. Whittlers have two springs. Each small blade bears on one of the springs. The large blade is extra thick and it bears on both springs. The thick master blade bearing on two springs is the most distinctive feature of a whittler."

He goes on to say:

"Many small knives with "whittler" construction have a manicure blade in place of one of the small cutting blades. These are not considered "true" whittlers by some collectors, but a nice one is not considered out of place in a whittler collection."

Obviously the terms 'Whittler' and '3-Blade Penknife' are not mutually exclusive, since a Whittler IS a 3-Blade Penknife, but in my opinion, calling a small ornate Penknife, which was never sold as a 'Whittler', nor intended for whittling, a 'Whittler', does not make a lot of sense, except perhaps in conversations with other knife collectors, where we might say a knife has a Whittler-type construction, for example. The Sheffield cutlers who made these knives undoubtedly had other names for these patterns, to distinguish them from one another, but I've never seen them called 'Whittlers', nor do I think that is a designation which would have been used. Some, for example, are Ladies Knives.

 

[ed_is_dead]

I don't think Turner's had a Royal Warrant under Victoria, which is why you won't find it on earlier knives. They got their money's worth out of the 'His Majesty' stamp though, because, after Edward I, they were able to use it under a succession of other male monarchs.

Here's a couple of tang stamps from a stainless Thomas Turner Penknife.

An earlier version.

Tweedale's book is an absolute bargain, as you will see when you receive it I don't think you'll find Levine on lulu though

Going back to what BRL has to say about Whittlers:

"Whittler" is a modern collector's term that refers to a particular type of construction. Any pen knife with this construction is considered a whittler, regardless of its shape or construction.

"A Whittler is a three-blade pen knife with a large blade in one end and two small cutting blades of equal length in the other end. Whittlers have two springs. Each small blade bears on one of the springs. The large blade is extra thick and it bears on both springs. The thick master blade bearing on two springs is the most distinctive feature of a whittler."

He goes on to say:

"Many small knives with "whittler" construction have a manicure blade in place of one of the small cutting blades. These are not considered "true" whittlers by some collectors, but a nice one is not considered out of place in a whittler collection."

Obviously the terms 'Whittler' and '3-Blade Penknife' are not mutually exclusive, since a Whittler IS a 3-Blade Penknife, but in my opinion, calling a small ornate Penknife, which was never sold as a 'Whittler', nor intended for whittling, a 'Whittler', does not make a lot of sense, except perhaps in conversations with other knife collectors, where we might say a knife has a Whittler-type construction, for example. The Sheffield cutlers who made these knives undoubtedly had other names for these patterns, to distinguish them from one another, but I've never seen them called 'Whittlers', nor do I think that is a designation which would have been used. Some, for example, are Ladies Knives.

Brill info thanks again Jack.
So would it be fair to say Whittler as a term is more frequent in use across the pond than here?
Here is an example of what I thought Whittler (at least in profile of the main blade) was...

IMG-20210616-172822 hosted at ImgBB

Image IMG-20210616-172822 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Just back from my humble collection of Turners and yep I'm soft, here's two with Cutler to His Majesty

 

[Jack Black]

Brill info thanks again Jack.
So would it be fair to say Whittler as a term is more frequent in use across the pond than here?
Here is an example of what I thought Whittler (at least in profile of the main blade) was...

IMG-20210616-172822 hosted at ImgBB

Image IMG-20210616-172822 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

Just back from my humble collection of Turners and yep I'm soft, here's two with Cutler to His Majesty

Both the term 'Whittler', and whittling as a hobby I think Ed Assuming that knife has three blades, I'd call it a Wharncliffe Whittler Ed, but then I've probably been hanging out here too long! The two-blade version is a Wharncliffe Knife, which is named for the pattern, not for the blade. Nice pair of Penknives Ed

 

[Will Power]

Lot of interesting info here Have the feeling that the term 'Penknife' was used as a catch all expression (still is in many quarters, denoting Old School type knives non locking etc) before more specific pattern names took on. These names may have been as a result of advertising, words gaining currency and importantly, the massive expanding US market which English, German and American cutlers reacted to. Terms such as Stockman, Whittler and various sub types emerged and multiplied. Then connoisseurs spent the next hundred years trying to classify the bewildering array of styles of pocket-knife. But then, the old term *Penknife' can be reverted to whereas these days Penknife generally means a two blade knife with blades at each end, often single-spring, and usually compact. Formerly it could mean many blades or one because we assume its ancestor the Quill knife really was for sharpening quills, despite the fact that by c19th nibs were rapidly displacing such an anachronism. Two little Pen blades being useful for any delicate sharpening e.g. pencils.

What also interests me is the catalogue pictures......No.3852 a Gardener's knife with a slightly curved Pruner (to be able to get in the frame?) but a beautifully handy tool! And the Ivory 8683 that's being discussed, those prices 69 Shillings which corresponds to 3.45 GBP I wonder if this is the price per dozen or each? Whatever, high grade costly 'superior' knives and 69 shillings in 1902 was a not inconsiderable sum, certainly not a cheap knife even per doz.

As for the Royal Warrant, true that manufacturers were (and are) keen to get it and milk it for all it's worth but the British Royal Family- a race of tax avoiders - has always been very keen to stock their numerous households with vast amounts of freebies.... It starts before Victoria but she accelerated the process and her all too numerous descendants picked up on it forever and ever.....

 

[Johnnythefox]

Penknife to me and most people in England not in the game is a catch all/umbrella term for a pocket knife.

for example I might say a Barlow penknife.

 

[Jack Black]

When I was young, because we didn't know any better, we called virtually every folding knife, apart from military knives, a penknife. The distinction between pen and pocket knives goes back hundreds of years though, with the earliest Sheffield directories, and cutlers lists, distinguishing between cutlers who made penknives, pocket knives, or both, and also other knives, 'spotted knives' for example. Later, the most common other distinct cutlery group seems to be Sportsman's Knives, but there are many other named patterns, some of which are now unknown to us.

 

[Campbellclanman]

Picked up these two the other day, I like grabbing the Joseph Rodgers when I can, I especially love how they prolifically stamp the Blades at times, The Knife is stamped "Joseph Rodgers & Sons as the bigger and Main Blade stamp on both the Spey and Clip. The Clip has "Hand Ground" stamped as well, the Tangs both stamped Joseph Rodgers with the two Maltese type crosses, and on the Pile side of Tangs, Sheffield England.

I love the Stove Pipe Kicks. all Steel construction - including Liners.

The Clip looks as though it is slightly short with wear, but in fact it is the same length as the Spey with both blades still being relatively full.
Typical Older Sheffield - tough Pull, but I can handle this one, the Wood pops in natural daylight- lovely Colours.

The Cut Throat has Cutlers to their Majesties - Victoria didn't cancel out the Plural of Majesties after Alberts death in 1861, when I looked up the dates of the stamps - 1840 to 1861 ( Alberts death) then the secondary date timeline states 1861 to 1901, I hope I have read this correctly.
With the above dates, I am thinking that this would quite possibly the later of the two date periods leaving me thinking that this Cut Throat Razor is around the 1900 mark give or take a few.
Horn Handles with a nice Blade etch........... hey lets be honest, nothing like some of the stunning early Sheffield pieces in this wonderful thread, still worth a mention

 

[Jack Black]

Two very nice finds Duncan

 

[Corso]

Great looking JR&S bunny knife

 

[ed_is_dead]

Picked up these two the other day, I like grabbing the Joseph Rodgers when I can, I especially love how they prolifically stamp the Blades at times, The Knife is stamped "Joseph Rodgers & Sons as the bigger and Main Blade stamp on both the Spey and Clip. The Clip has "Hand Ground" stamped as well, the Tangs both stamped Joseph Rodgers with the two Maltese type crosses, and on the Pile side of Tangs, Sheffield England.

I love the Stove Pipe Kicks. all Steel construction - including Liners.

The Clip looks as though it is slightly short with wear, but in fact it is the same length as the Spey with both blades still being relatively full.
Typical Older Sheffield - tough Pull, but I can handle this one, the Wood pops in natural daylight- lovely Colours.

The Cut Throat has Cutlers to their Majesties - Victoria didn't cancel out the Plural of Majesties after Alberts death in 1861, when I looked up the dates of the stamps - 1840 to 1861 ( Alberts death) then the secondary date timeline states 1861 to 1901, I hope I have read this correctly.
With the above dates, I am thinking that this would quite possibly the later of the two date periods leaving me thinking that this Cut Throat Razor is around the 1900 mark give or take a few.
Horn Handles with a nice Blade etch........... hey lets be honest, nothing like some of the stunning early Sheffield pieces in this wonderful thread, still worth a mention

Beautiful Rodgers Campbellclanman, they have that "specialness" (I've made it a word..)
Have you or would you sharpen the straight razor and use it?
I have my Grandfathers given to me by my Father lately and I'm giving the thought a twirl.