My first Bowie/present for a friend WIP (fingers corssed)

I have done it both ways, glue the guard, then the handle, and all in one shot. Do whatever is more comfortable for you.
 
Always do the guard first. If you try and do it with the handle, something will end up with a gap.
 
It helps the overall fit to do the guard first. Fitting up and gluing and take down knives are the end product of your years of learning. The final product.
 
Thanks guys. I did the guard earlier today and after about 10 hours I decided to just hand fit everything together because I guess I'm not "seeing" how I want this guard to go with the spacers I guess is the best way to put it. I'm assuming my only real option is to shape the spacers and let the bottom of of the guard be by itself right? Pics seem easier to explain and I apologize for the quality I took these in the wee hours of the morning.


Here it is and it's amazing how the flash makes the block look so blue in comparison to the other pics lol.



Another shot where it looks like a totally different color block :confused:





Here is where I'm talking about trying to visualize this thing .



I'm having a hard time visualizing the flow of it into the handle I guess. I think it's because I see most people on here do the guards with the "wings" on them so they flow right into the guard and handle I'm assuming I can't necessarily get that look here (which is fine). But before I take files to everything once it's glued up I need to have a plan. I'm assuming all I can do is basically shape the spacers in line with my crudely drawn lines and see the back of the oval guard right?

Or is it possible to extend the curve of that red line right out to the guard and have a guard look similar to what Nick tends to have on a lot of his Bowies or like Phillip did here http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1158671-Fighter-WIP/page3? Or would that look stupid because it's a thinner stock and would look whimpy if I lose the oval look?

Lastly I plan to glue this thing up tomorrow and I'm wondering is there a need to use any glue between the spacers or do you just rely on everything being sandwiched between the guard and the handle? In other words just put the glue in the block slide the tang in and clamp it up?
 
AVigil said:
This might help some... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6RZHnBhYhQ
Click to expand...
Great video....also i think i'm in love with that aluminum foil-ball file handle you see on the bench!!!! BRILLIANT, i want use it myself !!!
It is a golf ball, but i got the idea of making one from a more simple aluminum foil wrapped in a ball shape :)

Fletch, your knife it is looking very nice. As per the handle/guard etc... be patient... seems like the work is almost finished, but it's not!!! Every time i must repeat myself not to screw up in the end, and figured out the the handle, guard, fittings are more than the 1/2 of the overall labour, and one of the trickiest part of it ;)
From my little experience (most in screw ups, LOL) i can suggest to decide what you want it to look like and go by steps as possible (don't glue up things with epoxy before shaping....etc).
Good luck...i like that curly wood!! :)
 
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You could slide everything back off of there ,make a sacrificial guard out of wood ,plastic ,or something,then put all of the spacers and the handle back on .Then you could shape your handle right up into the sacrificial guard,including grinding right into the sacrificial guard without fear of ruining the real guard .Then ,when you put the real guard back on and slide the rest of the handle up to it you'll have the nice rounded contours of the handle meeting up with the flat backside of the guard.
 
I really appreciate you posting this WIP. I'm right in the middle of doing my first hidden tang knife with a guard and I'm trying to figure out the exact same things you are right now. My guard is a 3/16" thick piece of steel and behind it I have a sandwich of copper, G10 liner and Padauck wood then blackwood handle. I used CA to glue the copper, spacer and padauck together into one piece and I'm shaping that piece before I glue up everything together so I don't mess up the guard trying to sand behind it.
 
Since I JB weled the guard on yesterday I think I'm just going to bypass the sacrificial guard and go all out lol. I'm using Acraglass on it do I need to just do the block and just let the spacers be compressed in there or is the proper technique to put a little acraglass in between all the spacers as well?
 
No need to forgo the sacrificial guard.

Make a mock-up of the tang in mild steel. Leave about 8-10" of "blade" on the bar for a grip. Make a guard spacer in Masonite, Micarta, or plywood, and then put on all the handle parts. The guard spacer is just a backer, and doesn't need to be any larger than the end of the desired handle. Push everything up snug and check to see that the guard-bolster-handle and any spacers all fit flush. If all is OK, there are two ways to proceed....but first, a tip:

Now, this is a really important and professional tip:
Before you do any assemble and shaping, drill two small holes through the guard spacer, through the metal bolster and any other parts, and up into the handle at least 1". These holes should be about 1/8" on each side of the tang hole. I like to use a 1/16" drill bit. Slide in two pieces of 1/16" piano wire (taper the ends, and leave about 1" extra to stick out for later). They should be snug, but not too hard to pull out. You now have reference holes and pins for later disassembly/assembly. Slip the handle assembly, with the pins in place, back on the tang/mandrel.

Now, back to the handle shaping methods:
1) What I do is to drill an undersized rivet peg hole in the handle. Carefully drill it where the final pin will go with a 1/8" bit all the way through the tang/mandrel and out the other side of the handle. Put in a brass pin with one end tapered. This will hold the handle snug enough while shaping. If it is a bit sloppy, take it apart and slip a thin spacer of a business card between the sacrificial guard spacer and the bolster. This should make things snug. Once all is snug, trim off the excess brass pin and shape the handle and bolster as one unit.

2) The second way is to put just a little bit of 5 minute epoxy in the handle hole and clamp tight while it dries. Once the epoxy has cured, shape the handle as one unit.
After the handle is shaped, briefly put a torch on the metal next to the guard spacer and it will all come apart easily.


Sand and shape as needed to get the handle ready for final assembly. Once the handle is shaped and sanded to 400 grit, tap out the brass pin or heat the tang/mandrel as needed to remove the handle.

Before going any farther, make sure the blade and guard are completely finished...sanded and polished, etched, etc. If all is well, tape up the blade.

Pull the alignment pins on the handle assembly and discard the spacer block. Put some epoxy on the handle end and on the bolsters and any spacers. reassemble with the pins and clamp as needed to hold snug while the resin cures. Trim the alignment pins as needed so the are flush with the bolster. Touch up the handle if needed with fine sandpaper.

If you drilled the handle with a 1/8" pin hole, place the handle on the knife and mark the tang with a 1/8" bit through the holes. Just drill enough to make a mark. Take off the handle and drill where the mark is with a bit a little larger than your desired final pin. I like 1/4" pins, so I use a 5/16" bit. For a 3/16" in, use a 1/4" bit. If the tang is hardened, you will need to use a carbide bit.

Put the handle on the tang and up against the guard. Adjust the fit as needed, and when all is ready, tape the wood up to the bolster. Make sure you tape over the 1/8" hole if you used that method. Glue the handle up as normal, and when the resin is cured well, remove the tape and touch up any squeeze out at the guard and around the pin hole. If you did the pin hole method, re-drill the 1/8" pin hole to fit the final pin ( Tip - drill half way from each side to avoid tear out on exit). Pre shape and fit the rivet/pin, and when it is right, tap it out, apply glue, re-inserting the rivet flush. ( If using a mosaic rivet, make sure it is "clocked" correctly).

Do any final sanding and buffing as needed.

This method will give a shaped bolster and handle without messing up the guard. It is the only way to get some curved finger rest shapes in the handle bolster area.
 
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Well this gives me something completely different to ponder. I was going to just glue the whole thing up. Drill/set the pin, cut the basic shape of the handle out and shape and finish it. So you're saying shape the whole thing OFF the actual knife then assemble the whole thing. I was looking at Phillip's WIP and noticed that's how he did his (assemble the whole block right to the knife then cut/shape/finish it) I was under the impression that's how it was usually done. The back of the guard still needs to be polished. I only polished up the front of it figuring that I'm only going to see certain parts of it so I'll do that and the sides all during the final shaping and polishing stage.
 
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Okay made the sacrificial guard made everything fit and line up nice then proceeded to drill those 1/16" holes. Snapped two drill bits one being a carbide the first one got stuck in the thickest part of the metal spacer, while trying to drill that one out I snapped another. To me it seems so much easier since everything fits tight and there's no gaps when I dry fit everything to put the whole thing together glued up, drill the pin and shape the whole thing right on there. Is this really that horrible of an idea? I don't mind taking my time and filing everything down to fit. I cut the handle shape bigger than I need it I think so when I shape it and whatnot I can do it by feel as I go. If you guys tell me that's a horrible idea I'll attempt making it off the blade somehow and then fitting everything together. But it just seems to make more sense in the way I see how to shape it by having it all glued up. To me it feels like trying to make a set of scales off the knife then putting them on. It seems "easier" to make it as a knife rather then separate parts to me then try to match it all up. But if that's a major no-no then I'll have to go back to the drawing board.
 
Go ahead and do it the way you are comfortable with. We are just giving you some alternatives.
 
Okay so I came up with what SEEMED like a brilliant idea. Since I snapped all my small drillbits to drill the holes for the sacrificial guard I tried playing around with different ways to at least get myself close to shape, none of which were working. So I came up with the idea of gluing the G10 and spacers to the handle then once they set up I figured I could shape spacers and handles as once piece then slide it all on the tang when ready for final assembly. So I mixed up some Acraglass put it all together clamped it up and even went back after about two hours to pull the handle off to make sure it would come off. I even put oil on the tang and guard to help prevent adhesion. Evey thing seemed pretty good there was barely any tacky feeling putting the handle on and off so I figured I was pretty good with getting all the excess glue off. Went back today and that sucker is locked up solid on there, I was kinda stupid I guess to leave it clamped since everything was holding to the handle but wanted to make sure it was tight. Cant separate them so now I'm kinda stuck, literally. There can't be much holding this thing on which concerns me even if I left it on there and tried doing the guard like that. My plan was to pour a lot into the handle then glue it all up when the time came but not I don't know if there's an easy way to get the thing off.


I'm concerned about heating up the blade or guard at all because I don't want to affect the hardness/temper of the blade itself. Any advice on how to ger it off without destroying the G10 spacers or anything else? I don't have any more G10 and fee like I'm finally in home stretch on this thing (since I don't get much shop time) It's feeling good to finally bring this thing to a close. Am I screwed and have to just try shaping everything on there or is there a way to get this off? The material goes: Guard, G10, Steel, G10, Steel, then the handle. And no I didn't glue where the fitst piece of G10 meets the guard, I'm not THAT dumb lol.
 
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There is no worry about heating the blade/guard. You only need to heat to about 200-250°F to get the glue to release its hold. It would take twice that much to affect temper.

The same problem you have is often encountered when a handle is glued on and then you come back after the epoxy cures to find it has a gap or is crooked. Heat the blade gently with a small flame or a heat gun (heat gun is excellent for this task) at the ricasso until the handle can be twisted and pulled off ( wear gloves). When I have to do this ( more often than one would think), I put the blade in a vise with leather pads on the jaws, and just leave about two inches of ricasso area exposed. That is plenty to heat, and the vise firmly holds the blade as I twist and pull on the handle while heating. When the epoxy reaches the right temperature, it will suddenly pull off.

On your project, you might want to try clamping the blade in a padded vise and pull/twist hard on the handle first. It may come off without heat if you think there isn't much holding it. In the future, a few coats of paste wax works better than oil. Oil can rub off or get absorbed by the epoxy. Renaissance wax also works well.
 
Okay success!!

Didn't take a lot of heat, not as much as I thought and I actually heated up the spacer and the guard area but I was able to basically touch it by the time it came off little heat and a lot of force and off it came. Actually the handle separated first then with a screwdriver the spacer are came off. I'm debating trying to just glue it back up again since the only thing that can gap now is the handle and that's pretty flush. I checked everything a zillion times before I glued it up to make sure there was no daylight anywhere. Now I can just clamp the spacers to the handle and shape away (I hope) then glue everything up. I'm a bit unsure if I want to dtill the hole for the mosaic pin now or not since I can still easily see where the tang will be inside it. My only concern since I've never done a handle like this is since I left everything over sized when I get to final shaping will it look off center? I tend to to my handles/scales by file and feel as I go to see what feels best.

That's why I wanted to hopefully be able to work the handle as one piece and just slide it off and on the tang. Anyway here's some pics since everyone like those.

Here it is with a light behind it so you can see no gaps and this is just press fitted the left side is just a reflection no light shines through anywhere I've checked a ton of times:


Here is is kinda full view (with part of Freds bubble jig on the bench). I'd like the butt of the handle to drop a bit more and I'm thinking I can achieve that as it gets smaller as I shape it.


Some shots of the spacer I left it over sized for now and will work it down with the handle. My question also is on a guard like this should the width of everthing be about the same width of the guard or would it look okay with the guard being bigger on all sides?



 
Thanks AVigil my handle fits and holds pretty snug as it is so not sure if I need to go that route but good info regardless.

Things have been progressing pretty well and I wanted to ask you guys this before I went ahead it did it. The guard and spacer materials are all getting very close now and my plan since I'm doing this a bit unconventional anyway is to to the front of the handles similar to scales. Meaning finish the front area where it meets the handle meets the guard then glue it up and shape out and finish the rest of the handle. What I was thinking of doing is I have some 1/8" brass rod and I was considering drilling where the 1/4" mosaic pin will go to hold everything snug while I'm checking everything. I'm not sure though if I'll be able to get the pin out as I need to shape the top and bottom of the front of the handle and have it how I'd like as I go. I'm basically getting the spacer area and the guard to fit flush now and it would be easier if the handle was snug as if it were glued up. At the moment I use one hand to push it snug against where it needs to be. But I'd like the ability to get it on and off as needed. So I'm wondering if that's a good idea to do or should I just leave it as is and continue with that little bit of slop?
 
I dunno why I sometimes ask a question then proceed to work away regardless LOL. So have the handle rough shaped and the spacers and the guard are just about seamless when I press fit it. A little fine tuning and I should be happy. My plan is to make it look like Nick did on this amazing Bowie but I dunno if I have the skills for it. I most likely will have something that kinda sorta resembles it but I am particularly fond of this shape handle on a Bowie.

HarpoonTipBowie04.jpg


Here is where I'm at.





EDIT: That pic should be rotated 90 degrees dunno why it's posting like that
 
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