pass-around contest!

So is this about best overall tool or simply best HT? As you said chad2, it is your particular HT protocol that draws the fire. Keep it simple and no Huckleberries need apply.
 
there we go i will make a blade template and send it with the knife so that the blades are the same.
 
Hey guys... I have no ponies in this race, as I don't work with 5160, but...

Two different knives made by two different makers is not going to be a reliable test of HT. Even if you use the same "pattern", you still have variables like edge thickness and geometry. If you want to test HT (and HT only) I recommend the following:
  1. Knives are ground by one {skilled} maker capable of grinding nearly identical blades.
  2. The maker who grinds the knives is not one of the heat-treaters... nor is he affiliated with either one.
  3. The maker provides the material (5160) or at least ensures that the blades come from the same barstock. This will help avoid potential arguments about fixing the contest by supplying dissimilar quality steels.
  4. Testing volunteers test both knives at the same time.

May the force be with you.
 
Erin Burke said:
Hey guys... I have no ponies in this race, as I don't work with 5160, but...

Two different knives made by two different makers is not going to be a reliable test of HT. Even if you use the same "pattern", you still have variables like edge thickness and geometry. If you want to test HT (and HT only) I recommend the following:
  1. Knives are ground by one {skilled} maker capable of grinding nearly identical blades.
  2. The maker who grinds the knives is not one of the heat-treaters... nor is he affiliated with either one.
  3. The maker provides the material (5160) or at least ensures that the blades come from the same barstock. This will help avoid potential arguments about fixing the contest by supplying dissimilar quality steels.
  4. Testing volunteers test both knives at the same time.

May the force be with you.
Click to expand...

I agree and think that is the only way to test only the heat treat. You have to eliminate all variables.
 
Erin Burke said:
Hey guys... I have no ponies in this race, as I don't work with 5160, but...

Two different knives made by two different makers is not going to be a reliable test of HT. Even if you use the same "pattern", you still have variables like edge thickness and geometry. If you want to test HT (and HT only) I recommend the following:
  1. Knives are ground by one {skilled} maker capable of grinding nearly identical blades.
  2. The maker who grinds the knives is not one of the heat-treaters... nor is he affiliated with either one.
  3. The maker provides the material (5160) or at least ensures that the blades come from the same barstock. This will help avoid potential arguments about fixing the contest by supplying dissimilar quality steels.
  4. Testing volunteers test both knives at the same time.

May the force be with you.
Click to expand...

if someone is willing to do this to keep the test more about HT then please let me know and that is the way we will do it!
 
it does not seem as if anyone is willing to grind our knives so we will do them our selves :) thanks for all the suggestions.

darrin i think i will pass by the post office tomorrow. so you will get the steel in a week or two :)
 
Ok I have figured it out. I will do my knife then send my finished knife to darrin and he can match his knife as close as possible to mine. does this work for everyone?
 
Everybody has good ideas but we can't use em all. Its your baby so you do it like you want to and I'll follow the rules as best I can.
 
eric brinkerhoff said:
If your only testing the H T ,why grind at all?Just H T two lengths of barstock and break them .
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking. Just heat treat two pieces of steel the two diff ways and send them to a lab to see if the freezer method has any advantages over a traditional ht. because in the end that's all people here care about. If you make a good knife that's awesome and we are happy for you. It's the freezer and 11 day process that no one agrees with so why not cut to the chase and do the testing by a real metallurgist and cut all the amateur testing out.
 
Leethal Cutlery said:
That's what I was thinking. Just heat treat two pieces of steel the two diff ways and send them to a lab to see if the freezer method has any advantages over a traditional ht. because in the end that's all people here care about. If you make a good knife that's awesome and we are happy for you. It's the freezer and 11 day process that no one agrees with so why not cut to the chase and do the testing by a real metallurgist and cut all the amateur testing out.
Click to expand...

Because that would be too scientific, and what do metallurgy labs really know? They don't make knives. They just analyse steel 5 or 6 days a week. That can't compete with cutting 2x4's, or the use of a torque wrench. Silly man!
 
Not that I would not love to be able to do that, but that i dont have the money to do that.
 
What exactly is the freezer technique supposed to accomplish. Is this the method the two Ed's use or is this part what you added ? I'm only asking out of curiosity. Is it a stress relief or is it a grain refinement add tough toughness with this type of steel. I have never used this steel so I have not done a lot of reasearch on the methods used.
 
Leethal Cutlery--having never sent anything to a lab to have it tested, what lab would you recommend, what are the names of the tests you would recommend and what do they test for, and what do you think the cost would be?
 
LRB said:
Because that would be too scientific, and what do metallurgy labs really know? They don't make knives. They just analyse steel 5 or 6 days a week. That can't compete with cutting 2x4's, or the use of a torque wrench. Silly man!
Click to expand...

That's whats in question here is his ht. what better way to find out if his way has any real benefits then under a microscope!
 
Joe Calton said:
Leethal Cutlery--having never sent anything to a lab to have it tested, what lab would you recommend, what are the names of the tests you would recommend and what do they test for, and what do you think the cost would be?
Click to expand...

I'm recomending him do this because of the off the wall 11 day ht he is doing. I think the only way he would see the light is if he had scientific data saying it did or did not benefit the steel any. I mean the stuff he is saying he does have no effects on steel at all. Putting a knife in the freezer and an 11 day ht is just silly. I don't mean to be mean but that's my opinion and I think I speak for quite a few in saying that. He might make a great knife and in that case good for him. But it's not because of the freezer or 11 ht
 
I'm also not the one makin these out there claims. If he is going to claim that it works he better have proof in writing. A real experiment without all the variables is what I'm really suggesting.
 
Or since it seems to upset you, why don't you make two blades, one with the book heat treat, and one with the 11 day heat treat and test them out for yourself? Not trying to be a smartass, but I hate it when people say "that's impossible" but yet they refuse to try it themselves. If you try it and it doesn't work for you then you've got a reason to say it doesn't work. Have you tried it?

Here's the thing, a lot of Ed's thoughts on heat treating sounded off the wall at first, but I tried them and noticed an improvement. How will you know until you experiment with it? I know in my shop and with my tools and equipment the triple quench and waiting 24 hours works for 52100. How do I know? I tried it and noticed an improvement over the single quench and an improvement over all three quenches in the same day. I don't think industry would bother because of time, it's not cost effective, but it does work, at least for me and my shop. How do I know? Because I tried it! If it had not worked then I'd say it doesn't work.

As for the kitchen freezer, it does have an effect, perhaps a negligible effect, but I figure it evens out the knives made in the summer to ones made in the winter. And for me mainly means the blade has fully "cooled down" from the oven. Also it doesn't hurt. No it's not the same as -320 below cryo.

If you have a lab to recommend and the cost is reasonable I'd love to send them a sample to see what's going on. Until then I'll keep using observable, AKA testing, to see what effects I'm having on the steel. I'll agree with you on having the blade tested under an electron microscope, but where and how much?
 
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