pass-around contest!

Will52100 said:
Or since it seems to upset you, why don't you make two blades, one with the book heat treat, and one with the 11 day heat treat and test them out for yourself? Not trying to be a smartass, but I hate it when people say "that's impossible" but yet they refuse to try it themselves. If you try it and it doesn't work for you then you've got a reason to say it doesn't work. Have you tried it?

Here's the thing, a lot of Ed's thoughts on heat treating sounded off the wall at first, but I tried them and noticed an improvement. How will you know until you experiment with it? I know in my shop and with my tools and equipment the triple quench and waiting 24 hours works for 52100. How do I know? I tried it and noticed an improvement over the single quench and an improvement over all three quenches in the same day. I don't think industry would bother because of time, it's not cost effective, but it does work, at least for me and my shop. How do I know? Because I tried it! If it had not worked then I'd say it doesn't work.

As for the kitchen freezer, it does have an effect, perhaps a negligible effect, but I figure it evens out the knives made in the summer to ones made in the winter. And for me mainly means the blade has fully "cooled down" from the oven. Also it doesn't hurt. No it's not the same as -320 below cryo.

If you have a lab to recommend and the cost is reasonable I'd love to send them a sample to see what's going on. Until then I'll keep using observable, AKA testing, to see what effects I'm having on the steel. I'll agree with you on having the blade tested under an electron microscope, but where and how much?
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I'm not getting upset at anything. I have better things to do. If you are going to claim something out of the norm works wonders for knife making you better have the proof to back it up is what I'm saying and getting at. I'm not mad or upset about anything. I'm also not doubting chad2 can make a good knife, I'm just saying that with no proof how are we supposed to know or believe that the 11 day freezer ht does anything?

And I'm not saying anything is impossible! Please show me where I said that. I'm wanting proof for his claims is all
 
Will52100 said:
Or since it seems to upset you, why don't you make two blades, one with the book heat treat, and one with the 11 day heat treat and test them out for yourself? Not trying to be a smartass, but I hate it when people say "that's impossible" but yet they refuse to try it themselves. If you try it and it doesn't work for you then you've got a reason to say it doesn't work. Have you tried it?

Here's the thing, a lot of Ed's thoughts on heat treating sounded off the wall at first, but I tried them and noticed an improvement. How will you know until you experiment with it? I know in my shop and with my tools and equipment the triple quench and waiting 24 hours works for 52100. How do I know? I tried it and noticed an improvement over the single quench and an improvement over all three quenches in the same day. I don't think industry would bother because of time, it's not cost effective, but it does work, at least for me and my shop. How do I know? Because I tried it! If it had not worked then I'd say it doesn't work.

As for the kitchen freezer, it does have an effect, perhaps a negligible effect, but I figure it evens out the knives made in the summer to ones made in the winter. And for me mainly means the blade has fully "cooled down" from the oven. Also it doesn't hurt. No it's not the same as -320 below cryo.

If you have a lab to recommend and the cost is reasonable I'd love to send them a sample to see what's going on. Until then I'll keep using observable, AKA testing, to see what effects I'm having on the steel. I'll agree with you on having the blade tested under an electron microscope, but where and how much?
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And how did you know you had improvement with no lab testing? You could make two exact blades and ht them as close to the same as you can. Yet doing cutting tests on wood and other at home test could yield complete diff results. There are so many variables and inconsistencies when doin testing at home that you couldn't know know for sure what exactly you did to cause those results. You could take an educated guess but without a lab analysis how could you know for sure?

And on a side note. We aren't talking about a 24 rest period on 52100. We are talking 11 days on 5160. And he has gone back on several things he claimed happened in the process which tells me he is just going off bits and pieces he is reading from Eds process or elsewhere
 
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I am not a metalurgist, so yes I dont know exactly what is going on but I do know that going from a one day heat treating process to an 11 day has yielded an enormous amount of improvement in my blades. I also BELIEVE, but dont know exactly that the freezer gives the steel a more complete cycle during HT. What i mean by this is before, I would go from guench to temper when my blades were cool to the touch with out knowing if the knife had cooled down enough. With this process there is no doubt that all transformations in the steel are being completed.

Also 5160 and 52100 have the same heat treat they react to heat in the same way, obviously they are two different steels, the only difference between there heat treats is 52100 needs to be regulated better, it is a little more finicky. So when will is talking about 52100 he is also refering to 5160 in the same .
 
Thanks for the link, I'll check them out.

The prof I had was from extensive testing, including a good bit of destructive testing on the blades. One or two blades could be a fluke, a dozen you've got a trend going on. Agreed that without laboratory testing you have a harder time proving it, but again if you've got an obvious gain and it's repeatable...

The reason I stated 52100 is that I've worked with it a lot more than I have with 5160. To be fair I've only ever used a one day heat treat with 5160. It may be that I need to re visit this steel and methods, but I've spent a lot of time and effort with 52100 and have a good supply all from the same melt. And that is another point, whichever steel you use learn all you can about it.

Also my 52100 recipe is 9 days at present, not just a single 24 hours.

I apologize if I come on a little strong, it's just that I've seen a lot of makers say it's out rite BS, and that it's impossible, yet they believe quenching in used trany fluid is as good as any commercial quenchant and cryo doesn't really help stainless and an 8" hollow grind on a big chopper works great, and used rusty springs are as good as virgin steel of a known alloy. Non of which will stop someone from making a good knife, but eliminating as many variables as possible with take you a good bit further. At the end of the day the average user probably won't notice a big improvement, but it's there. And I've had makers tell me the triple quench is BS because the next quench wipes out the first, until I show them a blade with three distinct harding lines. All of said makers I've experienced refuse to do any real testing, because that's what the commercial heat treat says they should get and they can skin a whitetail with it without having to resharpen. Nothing wrong with there knives, they do what a knife is supposed to do, but to say it's impossible to improve the performance without doing at least a little testing really drives me up the wall.
 
I know someone with the equipment and the ability to perfrom such a test. Let me email him and see if he has the time to test a couple of pieces and what the cost would be. It would also save us a lot of work and the results would remove all the variables that we have been trying to avoid. If he agrees to do it, I'll also find out what the best size for the test pieces would be. Give me a few days and I'll let you know what I find out.
 
darrin sanders said:
I know someone with the equipment and the ability to perfrom such a test. Let me email him and see if he has the time to test a couple of pieces and what the cost would be. It would also save us a lot of work and the results would remove all the variables that we have been trying to avoid. If he agrees to do it, I'll also find out what the best size for the test pieces would be. Give me a few days and I'll let you know what I find out.
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That is all I'm trying to get at!!

William- I'm not trying to be disrespectful towards anyone here and if anyone has felt that way from my posts i apologize. Really my point is simple and this is the sum of it. If someone has an out of the box type of way he does something, and claims that these ways improve the tried and true ways... He should have proof that these ways offer an improvement over the tried and true ways. And not just a few tested to destruction blades. He could be doing a basic heat treat that works perfect and just adding all these extra techniques that don't really do anything and still get good results because he is still hardening and tempering properly. I just want proof that those extra things work!
 
William I agree with most of the things in your last post.

Chad why don't you explain to me again the best you can why you use the freezer, what it does and offers over not using it.

Also explain the best you can why you drag out the heat treat to 11 days?
 
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I did a quick search and found a lab in Arizona that has a price list for 2012 on their site for their different services and tests.

http://metalstesting.com

in a test between 2 knives with different heat treats, which of the lab tests would be the most beneficial? Rockwell, photomicrograph, and grain size?? it looks like for those three tests it would be $90 or so for each knife plus shipping to get them there I guess.
 
chad2 said:
I am not a metalurgist, so yes I dont know exactly what is going on but I do know that going from a one day heat treating process to an 11 day has yielded an enormous amount of improvement in my blades. I also BELIEVE, but dont know exactly that the freezer gives the steel a more complete cycle during HT. What i mean by this is before, I would go from guench to temper when my blades were cool to the touch with out knowing if the knife had cooled down enough. With this process there is no doubt that all transformations in the steel are being completed.

Also 5160 and 52100 have the same heat treat they react to heat in the same way, obviously they are two different steels, the only difference between there heat treats is 52100 needs to be regulated better, it is a little more finicky. So when will is talking about 52100 he is also refering to 5160 in the same .
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Leethal Cutlery said:
William I agree with most of the things in your last post.

Chad why don't you explain to me again the best you can why you use the freezer, what it does and offers over not using it.

Also explain the best you can why you drag out the heat treat to 11 days?
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Already did about an hour ago
 
That sounds like run around bro. You aren't giving any reason or definition of the techniques used. So really you just think that what you do makes your knives better because you have tested a couple?
 
Good luck with all that y'all do. I'm gonna leave the debate here. I guess in the long run , bro if it makes you happy do it. I don't have to agree just like you don't have to agree with me. Good luck in your testing
 
I'd be primarily interested in the photomicrograph and grain size, but would like to know the rockwell too. Hardness is an indicator, not an end all be all. You can have a high rockwell blade that's been over heated with large grain size and a lower rockwell blade with finer grain that will out perform the harder blade. Also some steels simply perform better at a slightly lower rockwell where harder and you can get micro chipping of the edge. I'd really like to know how much if any grain reduction is present.

No offense taken LeethalCutlery, all I'm saying is that if you disagree with someone's heat treat and dissatisfied with there answers give it a try and see how it works for you.

I think Chad is doing similar to me. Using the freezer to make sure the blade is fully cooled from a temper cycle. I don't really think it does much, but it doesn't hurt and I know the blade is down to a certain temp not dependent outside air temp or seasons. Call it an easy way to cut down on one more variable.

I'll give an off topic example of little things that can make a difference. You've all probably heard about having your anvil facing north? And come to the conclusion that it's an old wives tail? Well I thought that too till I just happened to notice mine is facing North. I deliberately laid out my smithy area this way, it's under a drop shed off the back of the shop. The reason I laid it out that way was for more consistent lighting at all hours of the day. Don't have to do it that way but I see the colors of the hot steel better this way and I'd be willing to bet a lot of old smiths did the same thing. Could be something this simple helps keep some people from over heating there steel. Of course if your in an enclosed building that pretty much nixes that idea. I try for consistency while forging, grinding and heat treating.
 
Good luck yourself, and disagree all you want. That's one of the great things about making knives, more than one way to skin a cat, or make a blade for that mater.
 
Are you using a temperature recording thermometer overnight in the freezer?

Especially refieg freezer combos as I think I recall being mentioned used , they run a defrost cycle that will show a temp of over freezing.

If you're looking for consistancy, you will want to monitor the temperatures and be sure it wasn't doing a defrost on you.
that could give you a forty degree F variation.




If you think there is an advantage to doing to overnight freezer thing, have you considered doing a Liquid nitrogen cryo, or dry ice cryoi-sh dunk at each step?

Add that to your testing and see of there is a difference.
 
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Hadn't really considered it, and rite now the only way I can handle liquid nitrogen is with a stainless thermos. It only keeps liquid nitrogen for a couple of days. Enough to heat treat the few stainless blades I do, but not enough for a multiple day heat treat.

Though now that you mention it I may have to give it a try just to see what if any advantages it gives. It wouldn't be that hard to fill the thermos every couple of days. If it does make a noticeable improvement I could get a dewar and just plan my batches better.

Hadn't really though about, but I'll see about making a few test blades and see what happens,

Thanks for the idea.
 
Leethal Cutlery said:
That sounds like run around bro. You aren't giving any reason or definition of the techniques used. So really you just think that what you do makes your knives better because you have tested a couple?
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Yep. I think it is a perfectly good reason to do it.
 
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I would be curious to see how your HT holds up compared to what Brad at Peters would do. Might be another worthwhile experiment.
 
I just don't understand the freezer thing. Yes, 52100 is solidly hyper-e, so there really could be some retained austenite. Research shows that real cryo temps are what it takes to reduce that.

You know, if you want more conclusive "testing" results for your multi vs. single quench, or your 1 day vs. 11 day HT, or your Amana vs. DeWar mf finish, I'd think you'd need to test the blades "blind". That is, you don't know which is which while you test them, and you'd have to do a few rounds of the same testing with a pool of knives, to average out results.

For the best credibility, you'd need to have a completely independent party do the testing. And, the blades would have to have exactly the same geometry and sharpening.

This would all be quite labor and time intensive, not to mention expensive. It's the sort of thing that happens in big industry because the funding, and the labs are there. To my knowledge, the only major cutlery specific work that has been published by a reputable expert in the metallurgical field would be Verhoeven's "Metallurgy of Steel for Bladesmiths & Others who Heat Treat and Forge Steel". Another would be Roman Landes' book, which has not been translated to English.

As far as I am aware, the overwhelming majority of folks who care about this stuff would seem to take the single quench approach based on the science outlined in these works. That would put the burden of proof on the triple everything, kitchen freezer people.

I doubt that this can really be resolved satisfactorily. Even if the perfect testing somehow was performed, there would still be detractors and hold outs whatever the outcome. I really wish though that it could, because frankly I get tired of this discussion.

And why, why, WHY, do some people insist on using a torch to reach critical?
 
And how can they be really sure they reached critical, or maybe passed it?
 
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