Peter demmer of terrier blades buyer beware

[Thomas Linton]

Assume for the purposes of analysis that the OP asked for/demanded more than he bought.

Did the OP get what he bought?

 

[9Nine]

How do you figure? Demmer said he's going to give this guy the blank. So, he's at least getting that, and honestly, sounds to me like it's all he deserves. Scope creep, and demanding one maker use another maker's procedure is nonsense.

How do you figure? OP paid a deposit for a piece of work from a professional. That person didn't follow through on their end of the bargain. Sending the knife blank and keeping the deposit is tantamount to theft, and extremely unprofessional.

Imagine this was any well known knife maker. Let's say a bunch of people put deposits down on a new run of limited knives that CRK was releasing, for the sake of argument. Then CRK decides, "you know what, nevermind. We're keeping the deposit but here, have the blanks".

 

[sutherland]

Just processing your post:

Me and Mr demmer had many conversations about knives and philosophies although it always seemed to be a bit snobby on his behalf. Nonetheless he claims he's an ex engineer so I figured he knew what he was talking about.

We should ignore your assessment of his character as being "snobby". "Knives" and "Philosophies" are of opinion and preference and not fact.

We agreed upon 475 with a 150 dollar deposit which was payed via etransfer. So throughout our dealing we had a few minor disagreements. First he wanted to ht the steel per msds right to the t. I had just read an article by Roman Landes about the lower tempering and sent it to him and requested he work from that if possible. He basically dismissed it but said he would add cryo so we met halfway.

This appears to be a moot point as you two came to a mutual agreement ("we met halfway").

I received an email from him saying the blank had been cut. Now I had chosen ironwood for the handle and had kept seeing knives with ironwood+bolsters and just thought it was a great accent. I then asked him if he could do bolsters to which he said he wanted to scrap our project and would prefer our business concluded. I was disappointed and thought it was partially my fault for perhaps overstepping but keep in mind this was to be my first custom. Anyways he said no refund of payment but he would send me the blank. I refused that as I couldn't finish the knife with my skill level or lack of and could not find anyone else to touch it. Sorry this post has been so long I just wanted to get the details in order. So I emailed Mr demmer of terrier blades after 2 months and finally finding someone to finish the knife asking for the blank to which there was no reply.

This is where I start to get really tripped up.

1. What was the original order that was agreed to?

2. Was the order agreed upon prior to the deposit requested?

3. Modifying an order after the deposit put down is nothing unusual and deposits typically are a percentage of goods (net of shipping, tax, etc.). Bolsters and Ironwood may require additional sourcing, planning (based on his operations backlog), and charges. I doubt that was the reason he elected to cancel the order, however it could have been the final straw. Again, there are a lot of variables at play here:
- your "few minor disagreements", which may not have been "minor" to Peter Demmer
- the builder has every right to refuse to modify the work order and hold you to the order you requested and agreed to (which you did upon submitting your deposit)

4. Was there a contract or mutually agreed upon terms? Typically a deposit is non-refundable if the order is cancelled (key word being, "Typically").

 

[Peter Hartwig]

Original agreement plays into this. What was he told the deposit was for- a deposit toward the work or the start of the work. Was he told the deposit was not refundable. If it was for the start of work, at least in the makers mind he may be giving him that work.

That said I think it could all be worked out if the maker was allowing some contact and that finding a way to refund would be best for both parties. If it were me I would refuse acceptance of the blank when it arrived or send it back with a note that this is un-acceptable(even though it would cost more money)-letting the maker know this is not a resolved problem. I would have no need for $150 paper weight. Too early to start claiming theft or fraud-try to find a solution. The maker was obviously really POed about this one.

Leaving this 2nd part up-I was hoping there would be some communication, but from the makers comments there has been, and he is past that.

 

[FullMetalJackass]

Hi,

Here is the answer I got from Peter:


Hi, and thank you for pointing this out to me. I’m not registered on blade forums and do not frequent blogs/forums so I was totally unaware of the post.

Colton Kroon ( I assume noob93) custom A1 project:

· Several CAD designs have been submitted to Colton Kroon in order to incorporate the different customer wishes

· After acceptance of design and determination of materials a price was quoted and accepted

· Down payment was reduced as customer was not able at the time to make the normally required down payment

· Material was ordered and the making started

· Half way through the making, just before the HT, the order was canceled.



Reason for cancelation

· Increased request by Colton Kroon for special HT he found with other makers on forums etc, insistence on changing my HT procedure but to keep the warranty. HT is done as per the steel smelters MSDS (they are the specialists as they design and make the steel) which has been forwarded to Colton at the beginning of the project. And quite frankly getting emails with ‘I just want to help you out’ regarding making etc. is kind of ‘strange’.

· It was not the addition of a bolster (simple to do) but major modification in the handle design which would have had an impact on the making which, together with the overall situation, triggered the decision to cancel the order. Till today I have not received a mailing address to forward the blade blank to Colton as offered months ago as the knife blank and work performed till this stage are his in my opinion.

· More than 40 emails were exchanged in a 10 week period with increasing deterioration of content, the gap customer – maker was not bridgeable anymore



Special considerations

· During the unusual amount of emails as well as phone calls received I got to know Colton, as per my view, as a very troubling young individual and an extremely difficult customer.

· Colton is blocked on my email as I got tired of the ‘flowery’ emails at the termination of the project as well as the ‘lovely’ voicemails he left on the answering machine.

· Colton has been blocked on my FB page to prevent slanderous actions, he has been reported to FB for using 3rd party login to access my FB page.

· He is aware that I do not frequent forums so I guess this post was the next logical step on his agenda ……



In general with respect to some comments on this post

· Changes during making, depending the nature of the changes, can be as serious that it is better to throw the blank away and start from scratch on. The customer should be aware of what he is changing and its impact especially on the cost.

· Down payment is always non refundable as it is intended to cover cost for materials to be ordered, time spend for design consultation and some of the work performed during the making. I have a few custom knives in the shelf where the customer bailed out, was not able to do the final payment, simply disappeared etc. and custom orders do NOT sell to other customers/knifies.

I felt the obligation to write this because of the positive comments/support of some of my customers and they deserve a clarification. Generally I do not engage in a ‘he said – she said’ situation and will ignore this post from here on.

Sincerely

Peter Demmer

 

[Peter Hartwig]

^^^
Thanks for posting the other side of the story

 

[Quiet]

How do you figure? OP paid a deposit for a piece of work from a professional. That person didn't follow through on their end of the bargain. Sending the knife blank and keeping the deposit is tantamount to theft, and extremely unprofessional.

Imagine this was any well known knife maker. Let's say a bunch of people put deposits down on a new run of limited knives that CRK was releasing, for the sake of argument. Then CRK decides, "you know what, nevermind. We're keeping the deposit but here, have the blanks".

So, let me ask you this. What is a maker's time worth. Nothing? Many places feature deposits which are nonrefundable. You are paying for having taken up the maker's time with your project. That's how I figure. It's clear from the guy's posts here that he was probably impossible to work with, and many makers are growing more and more sensitive to that these days. "This guy seems like the type who'll find flaws in anything, and who will cause a headache for me down the road. So, I'll give him the work I've finished thus far and he can take it to someone else who'll accept script changes midstream."

Your example is poor, because CRK hasn't expended any effort or materials making those knives...whereas this maker already had.


Sorry to see that you place such a low value on peoples' time.

 

[Quiet]

Hi,

Here is the answer I got from Peter:


Hi, and thank you for pointing this out to me. I’m not registered on blade forums and do not frequent blogs/forums so I was totally unaware of the post.

Colton Kroon ( I assume noob93) custom A1 project:

· Several CAD designs have been submitted to Colton Kroon in order to incorporate the different customer wishes

· After acceptance of design and determination of materials a price was quoted and accepted

· Down payment was reduced as customer was not able at the time to make the normally required down payment

· Material was ordered and the making started

· Half way through the making, just before the HT, the order was canceled.



Reason for cancelation

· Increased request by Colton Kroon for special HT he found with other makers on forums etc, insistence on changing my HT procedure but to keep the warranty. HT is done as per the steel smelters MSDS (they are the specialists as they design and make the steel) which has been forwarded to Colton at the beginning of the project. And quite frankly getting emails with ‘I just want to help you out’ regarding making etc. is kind of ‘strange’.

· It was not the addition of a bolster (simple to do) but major modification in the handle design which would have had an impact on the making which, together with the overall situation, triggered the decision to cancel the order. Till today I have not received a mailing address to forward the blade blank to Colton as offered months ago as the knife blank and work performed till this stage are his in my opinion.

· More than 40 emails were exchanged in a 10 week period with increasing deterioration of content, the gap customer – maker was not bridgeable anymore



Special considerations

· During the unusual amount of emails as well as phone calls received I got to know Colton, as per my view, as a very troubling young individual and an extremely difficult customer.

· Colton is blocked on my email as I got tired of the ‘flowery’ emails at the termination of the project as well as the ‘lovely’ voicemails he left on the answering machine.

· Colton has been blocked on my FB page to prevent slanderous actions, he has been reported to FB for using 3rd party login to access my FB page.

· He is aware that I do not frequent forums so I guess this post was the next logical step on his agenda ……



In general with respect to some comments on this post

· Changes during making, depending the nature of the changes, can be as serious that it is better to throw the blank away and start from scratch on. The customer should be aware of what he is changing and its impact especially on the cost.

· Down payment is always non refundable as it is intended to cover cost for materials to be ordered, time spend for design consultation and some of the work performed during the making. I have a few custom knives in the shelf where the customer bailed out, was not able to do the final payment, simply disappeared etc. and custom orders do NOT sell to other customers/knifies.

I felt the obligation to write this because of the positive comments/support of some of my customers and they deserve a clarification. Generally I do not engage in a ‘he said – she said’ situation and will ignore this post from here on.

Sincerely

Peter Demmer

Glad to see this situation was exactly how I called it.

 

[noob93]

Hi,

Here is the answer I got from Peter:


Hi, and thank you for pointing this out to me. I’m not registered on blade forums and do not frequent blogs/forums so I was totally unaware of the post.

Colton Kroon ( I assume noob93) custom A1 project:

· Several CAD designs have been submitted to Colton Kroon in order to incorporate the different customer wishes

· After acceptance of design and determination of materials a price was quoted and accepted

· Down payment was reduced as customer was not able at the time to make the normally required down payment

· Material was ordered and the making started

· Half way through the making, just before the HT, the order was canceled.



Reason for cancelation

· Increased request by Colton Kroon for special HT he found with other makers on forums etc, insistence on changing my HT procedure but to keep the warranty. HT is done as per the steel smelters MSDS (they are the specialists as they design and make the steel) which has been forwarded to Colton at the beginning of the project. And quite frankly getting emails with ‘I just want to help you out’ regarding making etc. is kind of ‘strange’.

· It was not the addition of a bolster (simple to do) but major modification in the handle design which would have had an impact on the making which, together with the overall situation, triggered the decision to cancel the order. Till today I have not received a mailing address to forward the blade blank to Colton as offered months ago as the knife blank and work performed till this stage are his in my opinion.

· More than 40 emails were exchanged in a 10 week period with increasing deterioration of content, the gap customer – maker was not bridgeable anymore



Special considerations

· During the unusual amount of emails as well as phone calls received I got to know Colton, as per my view, as a very troubling young individual and an extremely difficult customer.

· Colton is blocked on my email as I got tired of the ‘flowery’ emails at the termination of the project as well as the ‘lovely’ voicemails he left on the answering machine.

· Colton has been blocked on my FB page to prevent slanderous actions, he has been reported to FB for using 3rd party login to access my FB page.

· He is aware that I do not frequent forums so I guess this post was the next logical step on his agenda ……



In general with respect to some comments on this post

· Changes during making, depending the nature of the changes, can be as serious that it is better to throw the blank away and start from scratch on. The customer should be aware of what he is changing and its impact especially on the cost.

· Down payment is always non refundable as it is intended to cover cost for materials to be ordered, time spend for design consultation and some of the work performed during the making. I have a few custom knives in the shelf where the customer bailed out, was not able to do the final payment, simply disappeared etc. and custom orders do NOT sell to other customers/knifies.

I felt the obligation to write this because of the positive comments/support of some of my customers and they deserve a clarification. Generally I do not engage in a ‘he said – she said’ situation and will ignore this post from here on.

Sincerely

Peter Demmer[/QUOTE
The deposit was for the steel he had to order is what I was told. Why did he talk to me numerous times if I bothered him so much. Furthermore his opinion of me has nothing to do with our business agreement. I didn't ask for a modification I simply said he could modify it if it would make the work simpler.

 

[mbp]

So, let me ask you this. What is a maker's time worth. Nothing? Many places feature deposits which are nonrefundable. You are paying for having taken up the maker's time with your project. That's how I figure. It's clear from the guy's posts here that he was probably impossible to work with, and many makers are growing more and more sensitive to that these days. "This guy seems like the type who'll find flaws in anything, and who will cause a headache for me down the road. So, I'll give him the work I've finished thus far and he can take it to someone else who'll accept script changes midstream."

Your example is poor, because CRK hasn't expended any effort or materials making those knives...whereas this maker already had.


Sorry to see that you place such a low value on peoples' time.

Nonsense. You're not paying for anyone's time; you're paying for a product! The buyer and seller (using these terms for convenience) agreed to terms; the buyer indicated his acceptance by furnishing a deposit, and the seller by accepting said deposit.

The buyer requested changes to the order. It is at the seller's discretion whether or not he will accept the requested changes. If not, the original agreement stands, unless canceled. The buyer and seller are both obligated to complete the purchase as originally agreed. If one party cancels the order, that party forfeits the deposit unless mutually agreed otherwise.

The buyer did not agree to purchase a knife blank for $150. He agreed to purchase a knife for (whatever the original price was) with a $150 deposit. If the seller cancels the order, that's on him, and he should receive no compensation. It was his decision to cancel and his alone. He should have just completed the original deal. Sounds like he got scared of the buyer flaking out if he didn't get what he wanted, and so the seller decided to pull out first. That might be understandable from a certain perspective but it's not legitimate business.

The "deposit is always nonrefundable because I need the money to make the knife" is EXTREMELY shady. First of all, a maker who has no operating capital to purchase materials is at best financially questionable and at worst one step above a pyramid scheme. Second of all, the buyer has no protection in the event of a situation like this--a seller that simply decides he no longer wants to do business with you and will be keeping your money for the trouble.

 

[Skystorm]

You are most certainly paying for someone's skilled time, which does have a dollar value along with the materials deposit. A knife will not manufacture itself. Personally I would not send someone a half finished product, rather just refund them, write the loss off, and move on.

No respectable knife maker is going to have someone tell them how to do their job. If your so knowledgeable about how its done from some random google article then maybe just build it yourself.

Nonsense. You're not paying for anyone's time; you're paying for a product! The buyer and seller (using these terms for convenience) agreed to terms; the buyer indicated his acceptance by furnishing a deposit, and the seller by accepting said deposit.

The buyer requested changes to the order. It is at the seller's discretion whether or not he will accept the requested changes. If not, the original agreement stands, unless canceled. The buyer and seller are both obligated to complete the purchase as originally agreed. If one party cancels the order, that party forfeits the deposit unless mutually agreed otherwise.

The buyer did not agree to purchase a knife blank for $150. He agreed to purchase a knife for (whatever the original price was) with a $150 deposit. If the seller cancels the order, that's on him, and he should receive no compensation. It was his decision to cancel and his alone. He should have just completed the original deal. Sounds like he got scared of the buyer flaking out if he didn't get what he wanted, and so the seller decided to pull out first. That might be understandable from a certain perspective but it's not legitimate business.

The "deposit is always nonrefundable because I need the money to make the knife" is EXTREMELY shady. First of all, a maker who has no operating capital to purchase materials is at best financially questionable and at worst one step above a pyramid scheme. Second of all, the buyer has no protection in the event of a situation like this--a seller that simply decides he no longer wants to do business with you and will be keeping your money for the trouble.

 

[noob93]

Nonsense. You're not paying for anyone's time; you're paying for a product! The buyer and seller (using these terms for convenience) agreed to terms; the buyer indicated his acceptance by furnishing a deposit, and the seller by accepting said deposit.

The buyer requested changes to the order. It is at the seller's discretion whether or not he will accept the requested changes. If not, the original agreement stands, unless canceled. The buyer and seller are both obligated to complete the purchase as originally agreed. If one party cancels the order, that party forfeits the deposit unless mutually agreed otherwise.

The buyer did not agree to purchase a knife blank for $150. He agreed to purchase a knife for (whatever the original price was) with a $150 deposit. If the seller cancels the order, that's on him, and he should receive no compensation. It was his decision to cancel and his alone. He should have just completed the original deal. Sounds like he got scared of the buyer flaking out if he didn't get what he wanted, and so the seller decided to pull out first. That might be understandable from a certain perspective but it's not legitimate business.

The "deposit is always nonrefundable because I need the money to make the knife" is EXTREMELY shady. First of all, a maker who has no operating capital to purchase materials is at best financially questionable and at worst one step above a pyramid scheme. Second of all, the buyer has no protection in the event of a situation like this--a seller that simply decides he no longer wants to do business with you and will be keeping your money for the trouble.

Honestly that is why I asked him so many questions and kept in contact with him. It just seemed odd he needed my money to pay for the material. Ht was never discussed prior to the deposit being sent. I admit I'm no expert but Aaron Gough I would consider to be quite knowledgeable and watched his testing and sent it to said maker. The feelings I got were as described above it just felt a little shady. With him needing my money and then saying the cryo was useless felt a bit like he was just low on funds. I didn't want to spend 500 on a knife that was made cutting corners. Also I'm no expert on blade geometry but he wanted to put a 30 inclusive edge on knife that was meant to be chopping reasonably hard and dirty wood. This also freaked me out so asked him if he'd be testing the blade like it says he does with all of them on his website to which he replied (I guess if you really want but it should be fine). I then presses him a bit more and he said he'd chop a 2/4 if I really wanted him to. All of those things freaked me out and I still didn't pull out even though I felt maybe I should. I mean it says right on his website every terrier blade is made and tested for its intended use and he was hesitant to chop a 2/4. He now says he can't send the blank because he doesn't have my mailing address yet clearly states I'm blocked from even contacting him? Maybe it's just me but I don't think Mr demmer is quite the upstanding businessman he would appear to be.

 

[Quiet]

You are most certainly paying for someone's skilled time, which does have a dollar value along with the materials deposit. A knife will not manufacture itself. Personally I would not send someone a half finished product, rather just refund them, write the loss off, and move on.

No respectable knife maker is going to have someone tell them how to do their job. If your so knowledgeable about how its done from some random google article then maybe just build it yourself.

Thank you for setting mbp straight, he clearly needed the help. "You're not paying for anyone's time! The knife magically makes itself!"

Criminy.

 

[mtangent]

It is a contract for a finished product, not to work at an hourly rate.

I think both parties exhibit poor behaviour.

 

[Busto]

I personally don't want to be micro-managed in my own shop and craft by someone who wants to waste my time with petty details or some miracle recipe they may have researched on the net. Once the deal is struck I will send updates to those next in line for completion. My time is valuable to meet commitment dates for other projects.

I will not call or text or send needless email to ask if its ok to move on to the next step of a build. I believe this may have been the case with the customer. He may have felt a need for daily updates wanting to know what are you doing now is it finished.

If a maker claims in his statement of work that he test each item he builds why can't you believe that? Why did you call that into question? Was that even a question that was asked before the contract was agreed to?

Maybe he should send you the blank and you can send it to your Metal Guru and have him put the super duper HT/Cryo on the blank and grind it to your Specific requirements and attach and doo-dads that you think it might need to your level of acceptance.... I don't think you were going to be happy even if the blade could do back flips!

 

[noob93]

I personally don't want to be micro-managed in my own shop and craft by someone who wants to waste my time with petty details or some miracle recipe they may have researched on the net. Once the deal is struck I will send updates to those next in line for completion. My time is valuable to meet commitment dates for other projects.

I will not call or text or send needless email to ask if its ok to move on to the next step of a build. I believe this may have been the case with the customer. He may have felt a need for daily updates wanting to know what are you doing now is it finished.

If a maker claims in his statement of work that he test each item he builds why can't you believe that? Why did you call that into question? Was that even a question that was asked before the contract was agreed to?

Maybe he should send you the blank and you can send it to your Metal Guru and have him put the super duper HT/Cryo on the blank and grind it to your Specific requirements and attach and doo-dads that you think it might need to your level of acceptance.... I don't think you were going to be happy even if the blade could do back flips!

So as a knife maker/knife nut your not interested in discussing different procedures and methods? You have no interest to perhaps gain knowledge from an unlikely source? Also just so we're clear here you do encourage theft and like to make fun of those who have suffered from theft? Just so you know your also standing up for a guy who thinks very little of these forums as he stated to me. Ignorance is bliss what else can I say.

 

[Busto]

So as a knife maker/knife nut your not interested in discussing different procedures and methods? You have no interest to perhaps gain knowledge from an unlikely source? Also just so we're clear here you do encourage theft and like to make fun of those who have suffered from theft? Just so you know your also standing up for a guy who thinks very little of these forums as he stated to me. Ignorance is bliss what else can I say.

First off you don't know me or my shop or past experience I spent 30 years working for NASA. I work with metal as my hobby which turned into a small business for guns and knives. I know than you will ever know about metal heat treat and specific metals. The steels I work with are tested by ME in house with many different heat treat protocols more than you have done period unless by some chance you are an apprentice bladesmith doing nothing but heat treat

I think that you are young and have a lot to learn about what other people and their preference may be. If a person chooses not to be a part of a forum that is by all means his choice. However you seem to think that coming onto this forum and calling him out after HE cancelled the order was going to gain you acceptance as a whistle blower when HE decided that you were going to be to much of a pain to deal with in the long run.

I think in the long run you should accept partial blame for pestering a craftsman who only wanted to build you a nice custom knife for an agreed upon price on his knowledge of the steels heat treat protocols.

 

[mtangent]

noob, regardless of who's right or wrong in this case, I believe the best value you are going to get is experience. There is a lot to be learned by you from this transaction, & this thread.
Stop viewing this thread as a place where you can argue your case. Start learning.

 

[noob93]

First off you don't know me or my shop or past experience I spent 30 years working for NASA. I work with metal as my hobby which turned into a small business for guns and knives. I know than you will ever know about metal heat treat and specific metals. The steels I work with are tested by ME in house with many different heat treat protocols more than you have done period unless by some chance you are an apprentice bladesmith doing nothing but heat treat

I think that you are young and have a lot to learn about what other people and their preference may be. If a person chooses not to be a part of a forum that is by all means his choice. However you seem to think that coming onto this forum and calling him out after HE cancelled the order was going to gain you acceptance as a whistle blower when HE decided that you were going to be to much of a pain to deal with in the long run.

I think in the long run you should accept partial blame for pestering a craftsman who only wanted to build you a nice custom knife for an agreed upon price on his knowledge of the steels heat treat protocols.

I don't give a f*ck about acceptance. I am who I am and this thread was not started for exceptance or for my character to be judged. You calling me a whistle blower and straying from my question of whether or not you were encouraging theft says it all. And to mtangent iv certainly learned enough about this forum from this post to see there's some downright stupid and immoral human beings here. If people want to make this thread about judging me and turn a blind eye that's fine. I just thought people were a lot less ignorant and a whole lot less rude here. Cheers to thievery and all who accept it. Oh and thanks for the warm welcome.

 

[jbmonkey]

he should have given you back your deposit...just cause.....

but we have a saying in my industry..when the customer tries to engineer the job...walk away.

cause if the customer knew what they were doing they would just do it themselves and not need you. ive made this mistake a few times and everytime i paid the price. i walk now. in the end though your right he should have given you back your deposit. i would have.