Problems with JCrow97

Karda said:
The reasoning as stated to me was because:
1) three moderators told him the solution was to send it in to be fixed by EKI.
2) you adjusted the pivot.
3) you filed a claim with paypal.
4) you started this "smear campaign"
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All of which were the results of his refusal to accept a return in the first place. He refused a return the very first email he sent me, and suggested that the pivot being loose was the cause of all the problems.

I don't like airing my dirty laundry in public, and the only reason I brought this to light was to protect his potential future customers. I still can't believe people are willing to ruin their reputation for a few quick bucks.

Jason - smearing you was never my intention, and I believe you know that. It's not too late to save your reputation and make this right. Everyone makes mistakes, and if you have already spent the money, I'd still be willing to work it out with you. I'd even be willing to accept a partial refund, and you can give me the rest once you get the Emerson fixed and sold to someone else.

I don't know how else to be more reasonable, I'd like for us both to come out of this as whole as we did before, reputation and all.
 
Unfortunately, I cannot speak to any of the "what if" questions. First of all, we (mods) cannot reverse deals. We are as mods to be as invisible as possible, or should be. This is the venue or transactions to occur between buyers and sellers. Mods cannot and should not have to supervise or oversee every transaction that takes place, and we aren't going to. I'm confused by the situation actually, you love the knife, or did at one point then something changed. Regardless of what it was that changed, something did happen. The only questions i have now is, if you loved the knife as you write in your first post, why not send it into Emerson for repair, it would not have costed you a dime as Jason would be paying for the trip? At this stage I'd rather not assume that Jason spent the money on something or that a sudden case of buyer's remorse happened. I understand the predicament, but will reserve any judgement at this time.


egally08 said:
And what happens if Paypal sides with Jason because he lied to them, and led them to believe that adjusting the pivot is altering the knife? Do I get to just eat the probable $400 loss if I resell the knife, and he gets to stay here and do it to someone else?

Jason has refused to come in here and state his side of the story, probably because he has nothing to add. Everything I've said has been the truth. What's the reasoning he has given you and Karda for not reversing the deal? He hasn't corresponded with me at all. After I filed the claim, I even emailed him and said I was sorry for how this all went down, and I wanted him to know he will receive his knife back exactly as he sent it to me.

The only think I can think of is that he spent the money right after I sent it to him. If I end up having to eat the loss, so be it, but I don't want him to do this to someone else.
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RevDevil said:
I'm confused by the situation actually, you love the knife, or did at one point then something changed. Regardless of what it was that changed, something did happen. The only questions i have now is, if you loved the knife as you write in your first post, why not send it into Emerson for repair, it would not have costed you a dime as Jason would be paying for the trip? At this stage I'd rather not assume that Jason spent the money on something or that a sudden case of buyer's remorse happened. I understand the predicament, but will reserve any judgement at this time.
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Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I never actually loved the knife, it's a figure of speech, and I was speaking to the aesthetics only. I emailed Jason 10 mins after I opened the package and requested a refund. Nothing happened between the time that I opened the package, and those 10 mins.

I'm not going to send it in to Emerson, because I shouldn't have to. He lied to me about the condition and function, and that's not what I was paying $1200 for. What if Emerson can't fix it? What if it gets a hairline scratch while at Emerson?
 
I for one would come here and state my case myself..... Jcrow's silence on this issue is concerning and does not speak to his trustworthy


P
 
If a deal isn't done unless both parties are happy - in this case OP isn't because of conditions on the knife were not as accurately described, even when specifically asked about - then OP should not have to send the knife back to Ernie if that is not what he wants to do. I don't see a refund request or paypal claim out of the question, especially if JCrow97 was unwilling to discuss matters with OP beyond advising him to adjust the pivot and then using that as bait to state OP is at fault for the knife's..faults.

Sometimes silence can be deafening and it says a lot that JCrow97 won't respond here in this thread.
 
Unless the seller has some additional "game changing" information - sounds like he owes a complete refund as soon as knife is received back. This would be pretty cut and dry.
 
egally08 said:
Maybe I didn't explain it well enough. I never actually loved the knife, it's a figure of speech, and I was speaking to the aesthetics only. I emailed Jason 10 mins after I opened the package and requested a refund. Nothing happened between the time that I opened the package, and those 10 mins.

I'm not going to send it in to Emerson, because I shouldn't have to. He lied to me about the condition and function, and that's not what I was paying $1200 for. What if Emerson can't fix it? What if it gets a hairline scratch while at Emerson?
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No offense intended, just trying to wade through this insanity. I'm going to take this time to share some of my observations. That way, if anyone else is in a similar situation, they might be spared the needless turmoil this exchange has caused you both.

You explained yourself well enough, I can read the original first post well enough. Something in you, triggered a purchase of $1200. Personally, if I don't absolutely love something, I won't even so much as consider dropping the sheer amount of coin you did. Emerson custom knives in general are not built like mid tech knives that you might be familiar with (Hinderer, CRK, Strider, and so on), I don't care what their price tag or markup is. I've owned, carried, and used Emerson knives since 2004 and have seen and held more than a couple customs in the last 10 years to know of what I speak. Doesn't make them bad at all. If you were after a display piece/safe queen, you don't buy those from anyone but the maker himself. That is the way it goes.

There are a lot of "what ifs" involved here, too many for us to get through. I can see some fault on both sides of this problem. Also to note, there is no actual policy that indicates what you infer. It's more of an unspoken rule rather than an actual written one. One other thing, hairline scratches in knifemaking can and do occur. It happens to the best makers, the environments they make knives in are not what I consider pristine or sterile.

Here is what I see:
Jason should have been more clear in his sales listing. The wording should have been clearer on the terms of sale. He could have provided 2 dozen in focus pictures in broad daylight or at least in a very well lit room from various angles. He could have indicated "only serious purchases only", etc.

On your end, you should not have pulled the trigger unless you were absolutely sure that you wanted that exact knife, especially for that kind of cash. Request or demand more pictures, videos, talk to him on the phone, anything. When we are talking $1200 that deserves a phone call in my eyes. I need to hear the voice and decide for myself whether or not the guy I am going to be paying is full of it or is sincere. That also gives me a platform to ask point blank questions.

Now, I am not defending anyone here, again just trying to make sense of this mess in as much of impartial way as possible. Like I said, it appears that both sides made some mistakes. I hope things get resolved amicably and life goes on as normal for us all.
 
Rev, thank you for your input. Everyone knows you do a tremendous service for this community, and I appreciate it greatly.

I was 100% sure that I wanted that knife, but only in the perfect condition in which he stated it was. I asked him to make sure there was no blade play, and he said there was none. No amount of pictures could have told me otherwise. I am a serious buyer, and I always have been. I don't think I've ever had to return a knife in the 50+ knives I've purchased here, most of which have been over the $400 price mark.

As far as the scratches are concerned, that is exactly what I'm talking about. There is a good chance of it getting a scratch here or there if it's sent back to be fixed. The price difference on a rare Emerson custom that's in perfect condition, and one that's had to be sent in to be fixed, and than has some scratches is at least a few hundred dollars.

The fact that it has to be sent in to be fixed is proof enough that there is something wrong with it. Something that Jason either intentionally overlooked, or simply missed. Either way, I don't believe I should have to absorb the loss in value over his mistakes. I just ask that you put yourself in my position and tell me how you would feel.
 
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I will throw in my 2 cents yet again..
Heres my concern --bottom line-------YOU ARE NOT HAPPY and this is simple not a DONE DEAL..

JCrow97 has NOT PIPED in to plead his case and or to speak his mind on this whole transaction
I FULLY AGREE with a few other members here that have shown their concern of the SELLER not making 1 attempt
to pipe in here and see what he has to say--This has been ""lets say"" one side for the moment and he fully deserves his time
to put forth the effort to openly explain what may or may not have transpired
Im grateful things are progressing and OUR fantastic MODS have stepped in too help out.......Keep us posted all...
 
Hello all,

Some of you were wondering why I havn't chimed in yet, mainly to let the dust settle I guess. I know that when people are butt-hurt(myself included) they say things they might regret later, so again, I'm stepping back and evaluating the best course of action, thinking it through with a cool head. Also, this is the first time I've ever had to deal with a negative outcome from a deal gone horribly wrong, so this subforum's use is new to me, which is a good thing.

So first off, I better address the conspiracy theories. I did it, you know. After waiting year after year putting my name in the sacred Emerson Lottery hat, I scored, only to get it to my house and play hacky sack with a deadly weapon, get the centering all out of wack, and see if I could screw a guy over by taking OBLIQUE angled picks with a sophisticated camera and software, take $1200 and go nab a hooker for one of the greatest nights ever, flush all feedback and crediblilty down the drain for kicks!!?? Yeah OK

Seriously now, I'll tell you what I know. It's December now and I entered the Emerson Lottery as I always do every year trying to get one of my most sought after knives. My name was drawn... I was happy and kind of dissapointed at the same time, There is maybe 4 models that I was really hoping for, and If I finally got that one, I was going to EDC it for the rest of my life. I'm a one special knife carrier type of guy. Well, it didn't turn out that way, so for the past couple of months I was contemplating on what to do with the knife. Should I keep it, sell it, Use it? All the while I had it stored away utill I came up with a decision. I have yet to use a custom knife, until I find the right custom. Right now I use my trusty production mini CQC 15, have been for many years. Then I broke down and decided to sell the Custom and had thoughts to use those funds to purchase a model I was looking for, very hesitant of course because I didn't think I'd ever score another golden ticket. So from there, I took out my camera phone, couple minutes later had 8 pics and proceeded to upload them here (only could use 5). After a short time, I got a hit from the buyer, I was happy yet bummed at the same time. Even though I never used the knife, I got attached to the Idea of maybe keeping it. I consulted with the buyer and threw out the option of doing the gift paypal option to save him and I some money. I'll have to say it was very nice of him to offer to pay half of the paypal fees, so I accepted his kind offer and did just that. The very next day, I raced down to the post office after work around lunch time and sent it off, then sent the buyer pics of the tracking reciepts of both the shipping label and insurance label.

Everything's going great, life is good and a few days later I'm awaiting confirmation that the buyer recieved the knife, Friday night I got an email from the buyer starting out by him saying "Got the knife, Love the knife, it's a beauty, but there's a few things wrong with it"... I can still feel my damn stomach getting uneasy just thinking about it now. Went on to say that the lock is sticky which I knew since that's what I expect now from Emersons, and that there was some centering issue. I asked if the pivot was loose(did not ask him to mess with it) . He said no and that he did try to tighted and loosen it to get it to the desired effect. So then the offer was made to return the knife, little hesitant since it was a BNIB(still bag fuzz on blade) knife, the only one to make the knife right was Ernest himself. From there I offered to pay for shipping to EKI, buyer didn't like that Idea. Ok so now we're in a deadlock, what the hell do I do now.. I don't want to piss anybody off. Oh I know, ask the people that know best what to do for these types of situations, and not knowing the hiearchy or seniority of this place I looked and found 3 mods that post a bunch and gave them as much information as I could to get back some Ideas(was criticized for btw "now that you brought the mods into this"). NOW, if I had a clear ruling that I should accept return and move on we wouldnt be having this conversation. Some of the comments included his lack of knowledge of Emerson's perhaps, to being a buyer that cannot be pleased(buyer did admit to having return knives before to me in one of the emails), to be carefull when getting returns because you dont know if buyer messed with it (buyer did admit to messing with pivot screw) which means what else did he mess with? They also suggested that if I pay shipping to EKI this is an acceptible solution. So with all this spinning around and now asking myself, I'm as damn confused what to now as I was before haha. So I gave what the majority concesus, which was, " I cannot accept the return, but I'll pay for shipping to EKI". No go..

Then got an email saying there was PayPal dispute opened on me and that my balance of funds was removed..
Then got an email from buyer saying you might want to look at this thread "The good, The bad, yadayadayada"
Smear campaign started, felt shat on.. the kind of shat that's really yukky when someone attacks your character.
I get that cheaters and stuff should be brought to justice, but C'mon.
Now, I'd NEVER crap on a dudes character. I think, it's about 2 people butting heads is all. The buyer seems like a nice guy, just frustrated himself, so I'm not hating. Maybe he could've got some mod advice too?

So hear I am, what to do now? accept paypal's decision and move on? if you want to give suggestions (im still humbly listening) just PM me.
Thanks
 
I would like to ask an innocent question, that would help me (and possibly others) in the future. How does one test if a pivot is loose without trying to tighten it?
 
Jcrow, you know exactly what to do. It has been stated in several posts. Egally is not happy so give him a refund. He's not a guy who would rip people off in fact he does the opposite. You can do a quick search and see. Who else would sell a MT troodon for ~$100 or a bodega for $555 when he paid $650? You admit that he's a good guy, and he really is.

The main problem is that you weren't honest when he asked you about those specific issues that would devaluate the knife or take the enjoyment away. I would like for you to shed some light on to the questions that egally had asked you. What is expected of Emerson's is irrelevant when he has asked you specifically about play and centering. For 95% of us here, that can make or break a $200 dollar knife let alone a $1200 knife.
 
OK all one more comment..

No one PUT YOUR CHARACTER down.. NOT in the least (well by me--I will speak for myself) I (ME) was concerned of no response from you..As this was made public Right-or-Wrong I feel after spending ""10"" years in this Forum it is the buyer-sellers responsibility-Proper Duty or Ethically appropriate to PIPE in rather than let the dust settle
I believe the moderators that helped..Did a GREAT job and handled things very properly. I don't feel this was smear campaign in the least,,It was and UNHAPPY BUYER and the RULES STATE--and I quote--"The deal is NOT DONE Until both Parties are Happy" The buyer wasn't happy

I have sold HIGH END $1000 or better to friends in here..MY RULE of thumb so I do things properly and my integrity is never in question--WAIT reply from buyer..Make sure we are good AND THEN I do what I feel I want to do with the $$$ that was sent to me for that knife. Its simply good too WAIT until things are GOOD on both ends and proceed cautiously to avoid this such instance happening..

I have been around here a bit of TIME I have met some fantastic folks here that are my friends. THIS happens from time to time ..I said earlier.I had to refund over 1000 to a guy that bought a knife from me--he ran into an emergency..I sent him the $$ back no questions asked.
Im sorry both of you had to go thru this. Im grateful for you finally piping in JCrow.

Lets just chalk this one up Part friends and have this as a Learning Transaction..We all have had similar stuff happen..I applaud everyone involved and how this has for the most part transpired and a resolution.. Maybe not everyone is happy but we are going forward ..
Let the Mods speak to you PRIVATELY in emails and PMs to see what you may/may not do with this Paypal issue..
I wish you both well.. and I also am GRATEFUL to the fantastic Moderators that take time out of their day.night to help resolve things like this and make this place a SAFE KNIFE FAMILY--

-Keith
 
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My 2¢:

There's a big difference between saying, "I'm not happy because of [...] I'd like to return it for a refund."
and "I'm not happy because of [...] and tried to fix it but couldn't, I'd like to return it..."

Not saying this is what happened here, but "both parties not happy = full refund" isn't so white and black.
 
Jason,

Most of what you say is true, except that I told you about the blade play in the very first email, and also asked for a refund in the first email I sent. It should of been an open and closed situation right there.

I'm glad you came in here and told your side, I don't want people to think bad about you. All I'd like to do is return the knife that I purchased that I thought was perfect. If you had told me it had blade play, I wouldn't of purchased it in the first place.

I've talked to PayPal and they said they have an abnormally high volume of claims, so I should expect to have it resolved by the middle of March. I don't know about you, but a month is a long time to tie up both of our funds. If you tell Paypal that you will issue a refund, I'd be willing to accept less than $1200 back for it, just as an incentive to get it done and over with.
 
justsomedude said:
My 2¢:

There's a big difference between saying, "I'm not happy because of [...] I'd like to return it for a refund."
and "I'm not happy because of [...] and tried to fix it but couldn't, I'd like to return it..."

Not saying this is what happened here, but "both parties not happy = full refund" isn't so white and black.
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Tightening the pivot doesn't change the knife one way or the other. I've handled knives for a long time, I'm not about to mess about a $1200 custom just buy gently screwing the pivot a 1/4" of a turn. Me trying to "fix" it shows that I wanted to keep it and it wasn't just buyers remorse.
 
justsomedude said:
Yea, but how is the seller supposed to know and trust that?
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Well, I wouldn't of contacted him if the knife was in the condition he lead me to believe, correct? I trusted that the knife was in the shape that he specifically told me it was. I can provide pictures and video proving that the knife hasn't been altered, and there are ZERO marks around or on the pivot. Is that proof enough?
 
justsomedude said:
My 2¢:

There's a big difference between saying, "I'm not happy because of [...] I'd like to return it for a refund."
and "I'm not happy because of [...] and tried to fix it but couldn't, I'd like to return it..."

Not saying this is what happened here, but "both parties not happy = full refund" isn't so white and black.
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I've seen members throwing the "until both parties are happy" phrase around for years now. It's neither black, nor white, nor an actual rule of this forum (http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=751&a=98). A buyer/seller can be unhappy for a multitude of reasons--buyer's remorse for one. If the seller misrepresented his item, via prior communication, stating that the blade centering was perfect, there wasn't any blade play, or the lock disengaged clean, a return should be issued. The rules of this forum do a pretty good job of keeping people honest, and IMO there's a reason "until both parties are happy" isn't among them. It is far too vague a statement, and a buyer's unhappiness could occur, absent any seller-related error, or mistruth. Hope this works out for all parties concerned... if the OP is being truthful, and asked about the centering/bladeplay prior to the transaction, then it seems like a return is the next step toward a resolution.
 
I'd be fine with that if I was the seller, absolutely.

My comment was meant more for the people saying the situation is black/white. It's never black/white.
 
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