Problems with JCrow97

It all boils down to these two rules...
When a buyer asks specific questions about condition, be honest, pessimistic and concise. Provide clear pictures of item so that buyers can have a reasonable idea of the items condition.

3.Be honest and provide an accurate & detailed description of the item. Don't forget to mention defects, blemishes, new, used, or other problems. When in doubt, be pessimistic with your descriptions.
4.Provide as many photos as possible, in the best lighting possible. It's always nice for buyers to see what they are going to get.
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jcrow97 said:
Everything's going great, life is good and a few days later I'm awaiting confirmation that the buyer recieved the knife, Friday night I got an email from the buyer starting out by him saying "Got the knife, Love the knife, it's a beauty, but there's a few things wrong with it"... I can still feel my damn stomach getting uneasy just thinking about it now. Went on to say that the lock is sticky which I knew since that's what I expect now from Emersons, and that there was some centering issue. I asked if the pivot was loose(did not ask him to mess with it) . He said no and that he did try to tighted and loosen it to get it to the desired effect. So then the offer was made to return the knife, little hesitant since it was a BNIB(still bag fuzz on blade) knife, the only one to make the knife right was Ernest himself. From there I offered to pay for shipping to EKI, buyer didn't like that Idea. Ok so now we're in a deadlock, what the hell do I do now.. I don't want to piss anybody off. Oh I know, ask the people that know best what to do for these types of situations, and not knowing the hiearchy or seniority of this place I looked and found 3 mods that post a bunch and gave them as much information as I could to get back some Ideas(was criticized for btw "now that you brought the mods into this"). NOW, if I had a clear ruling that I should accept return and move on we wouldnt be having this conversation. Some of the comments included his lack of knowledge of Emerson's perhaps, to being a buyer that cannot be pleased(buyer did admit to having return knives before to me in one of the emails), to be carefull when getting returns because you dont know if buyer messed with it (buyer did admit to messing with pivot screw) which means what else did he mess with? They also suggested that if I pay shipping to EKI this is an acceptible solution. So with all this spinning around and now asking myself, I'm as damn confused what to now as I was before haha. So I gave what the majority concesus, which was, " I cannot accept the return, but I'll pay for shipping to EKI". No go..
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There's a lot in your post that just isn't relevant (how you won the Emerson lottery and wanted to carry it, then decided to sell it, but you weren't sure if you would sell it, but you finally decided to, etc.) Maybe that's your writing style. Fine.

But you wrote a lot and don't mention the issue of blade play. If the knife does in fact have the blade play, that's not something that you wouldn't notice before you sold it.

In my humble opinion, it seems you are hiding behind the fact that he turned (gently, presumably) the pivot screw a quarter turn. That you didn't mention blade play (and to a lesser extent that the knife was off center) seems trump the fact that the buyer made a small attempt to adjust the knife.

You also seem to be hiding behind the advice of a few moderators, who naturally only heard one side of the story before giving advice (I wonder if you left out the issue of blade play when PM'ing the moderators just as you left it out in your post here?). The fact that the buyer mentioned the lock was sticky (which he says he can live with) seems to have caused at least one of the moderator to suspect it was a case of buyers remorse or not being educated about Emerson's. From what the buyer wrote, I don't think it's a case of buyers remorse. I think the supposed 'consensus' from the moderators is irrelevant. Just know that if you decided not to return the buyer his money, it was your choice and your choice alone and not the decision of some arbitration panel (the mods) that has all the facts of the case.
 
Glad both party's are talking. As a semi frequent Buyer on this forum, I cannot think of any way Egally08 could have handled differently or better. He wanted to make sure of what he was getting, asked the questions and reported back promptly when he did not get what he expected. I hope PayPal rules in your favor. I feel for you Egally08. BtW, don't be bullied to take less than a full refund is my 0.02.
 
Here is a picture of the presentation side with a clear photo of the pivot and surrounding bolster. There are zero marks or scratches anywhere on the knife. Me slightly adjusting the pivot should have no more bearing on his refusal of a refund.

I appreciate the support I have received both in this thread and through email/PM. I still think there is a chance for both of us to come out of this with no harm done. We're both adults, both reasonable people, we shouldn't have to let PP decide what's the right thing to do.
 

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Emerson's, even customs, have a break in period where the pivot needs to be tightened to eliminate blade play and opened and closed multiple times until it smooths out.
 
This is not that difficult. Questions were asked by buyer, answered by seller. Turned out not to be the case. Buyer communicated issue immediately. Buyer not happy with knife ... Mainly due to points prior. All other stuff/opinions really do not matter. All buyer is asking for is to return and get refund. Simple.
 
Seller should have never presumed that the buyer had the same expectations concerning the stickiness of the lockbar as him, regardless if it's an Emerson, an Mtech or a Chevrolet. If the lock is sticky and Emersons always have sticky locks, that's the answer to the question "does the lock stick"?, not "No, the lockbar is not sticky". Blade play, poor centering - even though the stated condition indicated none of this was a problem - The seller needs to refund, plain and simple - if sending it to Emerson was a good enough option to offer him, surely it's acceptable to you.


It's not black and white, but it's clear. Considering everything, most of the information is moot and the most important aspects of this dispute show a buyer that received a knife that was not in the advertised condition.

OP made the mistake of messing with the screw, but that seems more like a gotcha than a legitimate reason not to accept the return. The mods made a mistake of weighing in on a situation without enough information without consulting both parties. The seller made the mistake of assuming that everyone knows how an Emerson sticks (or that it was adequate to deny any stickiness on that basis). None of those mistakes are unforgivable they are avoidable in the future, so everyone reading should take note) or dramatic enough to derail a resolution. Insufficient description has always been considered a legitimate reason for a knife return here as I've understood it though, and just because a buyer is detail oriented doesn't forfeit their rights to getting a knife that is at least as good as advertised. There are usually some clear observations that help dictate the best course of action - in this case, it's the quick reporting on the part of the buyer (forget that he said he loved the knife - the majority of people do that small talk compliment stuff, especially when they respect the person they're speaking with), the parts about the flaws and wanting a refund are what comes through in that message. He got the knife, immediately requested a refund and explained his reasoning; now, even though the course of action should be clear with that, the seller seems to be looking for an out (consulting sources until someone gives him an out, denying refund because a screw was turned, trying to put the knife off on Emerson's warranty department, etc).


It's not unforgivable that you would rather keep the money instead of the knife, but your actions are not confidence inspiring thus far. I think you know what needs to be done to salvage your reputation, and the quicker you do it the better - forgo the wait for more opinions, PayPal's ruling, and the chance that someone more powerful will weigh in on your side - just do what's right and chalk this one up as a lesson, put the knife back up for sale with a clearer description, or send it in for warranty work. You may not get wrote off as a scammer if you play this out and finally do the right thing in 2 weeks, but you're hurting your reputation more and more the longer you procrastinate, and that's what I'm seeing with waiting to post, eliciting comments in your favor, putting off the inevitable, and suggesting to the buyer that tightening the pivot screw would fix the centering, but then using the fact that he tightened the pivot screw as a reason to dispute the return. The buyer isn't an online exchange forum saint, far from it - but the issue at hand is the return of a knife that the recipient felt wasn't in the advertised condition, and that's all on you. There isn't any real reason to dissect the buyer's actions or weigh his fault - just issue the refund, get your knife back, assess your situation and move forward.
 
Actually the Buyer is an online forum saint. ;) Buyer bought knife and confirmed the condition and was mislead. He receives a $1200 off centered knife and immediately notifies the Seller. He attempts to remedy the problem and is honest about tightening the pivot bolt. There is not a maker or manufacturer who voids a warranty based on pivots being tightened or loosened. Hinderer and Strider sell special tools for their pivots. Every CRK comes with an allen wrench to tighten the pivot. Silly excuses. Give the man his money back. There is way too much of this BS going on lately. Integrity is lacking.

No disrespect intended, but there is no such thing as a "break in period" with a knife. I have never heard a reputable custom maker say they need to be broken in. Its not a car with an engine, these are knives with simple pivots and locks. Either the knife is properly centered, tightened, etc or its B/O.
 
The lock being broken in has nothing to do with side to side play. The lock only affects up and down play.
 
Not a $1200 knife or a reputable maker. Either it locks up, is centered, and works as it is designed to or it is B/O. Sorry, every premium knife I have bought is good to go or it goes back til its right. (My 2 cents brother, especially at $1200.) The maker better have the knife "broken in" before he sells it.
 
Good luck on winning your "NO BRAINER" case, against this member who is now eating a lot of Crow.
 
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Every time something like this happens it "cheapens" the exchange. IT starts many to think that a sale/trade of an expensive knife is a big risk that just might not be worth it. Not because the knife is not what it is supposed to be, not because the knife is not worth what is should be BUT simply because some have forgotten a deal is not a deal until and unless both parties are happy.
Why risk a $1000 without the confidence of knowing if one part is not happy the deal can be undone. No BS, no stories, no complaints, no GB&U just an E-mail from the buyer to the seller that the knife deal needs to be undone and 'poof', the deal is undone.
Imagine how many reputation will be salvaged if alll played with this simple rule intact?
 
wolfmann601 said:
Every time something like this happens it "cheapens" the exchange. IT starts many to think that a sale/trade of an expensive knife is a big risk that just might not be worth it. Not because the knife is not what it is supposed to be, not because the knife is not worth what is should be BUT simply because some have forgotten a deal is not a deal until and unless both parties are happy.
Why risk a $1000 without the confidence of knowing if one part is not happy the deal can be undone. No BS, no stories, no complaints, no GB&U just an E-mail from the buyer to the seller that the knife deal needs to be undone and 'poof', the deal is undone.
Imagine how many reputation will be salvaged if alll played with this simple rule intact?
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In my experience most people do play by those rules. With the 50+ transactions I've had, they've all went smoothly. The one time I had to return a knife, the seller knew he was at fault, and immediately made it right. The same has happened to me. I'm not perfect, but when I've made a mistake, I do everything I can to correct it.

While these types of threads come up more often than we'd all like to see, they are still the minority by far. For every 100 good transactions we don't see, there's one bad deal that pops up here. While it might make a newer member hesitate, the people that have been around a while know this to still be a very safe and tight knit community.

This deal in no way is going to make me think twice about buying another $1200 knife from someone else. I love being part of this great community, and I still have faith that Jason will come to his senses and show that he is a man of his word.
 
Turning a pivot with a tool that fits, carefully a bit to try to fix a problem and not marking up anything at all, does not harm the knife anymore than the person that put the knife together does. Also I can't understand why the price of the knife is even an issue, in any return. 12 dollars or 1200 if the buyer isn't happy refund them.
 
wolfmann601 said:
Every time something like this happens it "cheapens" the exchange. IT starts many to think that a sale/trade of an expensive knife is a big risk that just might not be worth it. Not because the knife is not what it is supposed to be, not because the knife is not worth what is should be BUT simply because some have forgotten a deal is not a deal until and unless both parties are happy.
Why risk a $1000 without the confidence of knowing if one part is not happy the deal can be undone. No BS, no stories, no complaints, no GB&U just an E-mail from the buyer to the seller that the knife deal needs to be undone and 'poof', the deal is undone.
Imagine how many reputation will be salvaged if alll played with this simple rule intact?
Click to expand...

I've already about stopped trading here because I've been tricked too many times, by dishonest trading partners. One guy went out of his way to make a knife appear flawless in his pictures, lied about blade centering, (oh it was centered alright as long as the pivot was loose) nicks on the handle and lock rock. I wish I'd forced him to reverse the deal, but I at the time wrote it off as a loss. I see now he should have been outed if he didn't reverse the deal.
 
This is something that should not have even needed consulting to decide what to do. Irregardless of the rules. If you sell or trade something and the other person for any reason or no reason wants to reverse the trade within a day after receiving and inspecting the item then it should be reversed. Upon the items return if you find that it's not the same condition as it was sent then address the refund issue at that time. In fact I dont notice it being done anymore but people used to include in their ad 24 or 48 hour inspection period etc probably should lay down some sale trade rules in the sales post to alleviate some of these issues. If it was buyers remorse you could always put them on your no sell and trade list if that rubs you wrong.
 
Just wanted to give a quick update. Jason has not returned any of my emails trying to peacefully work out a return.

No word from PP as of yet, but it looks like even with the community pressure Jason is unwillingly to do the right thing on his own. Hope this thread serves as a warning for future customers of Jason Crow of South Dakota.
 
jcrow97 said:
...
Everything's going great, life is good and a few days later I'm awaiting confirmation that the buyer recieved the knife, Friday night I got an email from the buyer starting out by him saying "Got the knife, Love the knife, it's a beauty, but there's a few things wrong with it"... I can still feel my damn stomach getting uneasy just thinking about it now. Went on to say that the lock is sticky which I knew since that's what I expect now from Emersons, and that there was some centering issue. I asked if the pivot was loose(did not ask him to mess with it) . He said no and that he did try to tighted and loosen it to get it to the desired effect. So then the offer was made to return the knife, little hesitant since it was a BNIB(still bag fuzz on blade) knife, the only one to make the knife right was Ernest himself. From there I offered to pay for shipping to EKI, buyer didn't like that Idea. Ok so now we're in a deadlock, what the hell do I do now.. I don't want to piss anybody off. Oh I know, ask the people that know best what to do for these types of situations, and not knowing the hiearchy or seniority of this place I looked and found 3 mods that post a bunch and gave them as much information as I could to get back some Ideas(was criticized for btw "now that you brought the mods into this"). NOW, if I had a clear ruling that I should accept return and move on we wouldnt be having this conversation. Some of the comments included his lack of knowledge of Emerson's perhaps, to being a buyer that cannot be pleased(buyer did admit to having return knives before to me in one of the emails), to be carefull when getting returns because you dont know if buyer messed with it (buyer did admit to messing with pivot screw) which means what else did he mess with? They also suggested that if I pay shipping to EKI this is an acceptible solution. So with all this spinning around and now asking myself, I'm as damn confused what to now as I was before haha. So I gave what the majority concesus, which was, " I cannot accept the return, but I'll pay for shipping to EKI". No go..
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Only important thing you said in that wall of text. If he asked about lockup and you said it's all fine, knowing there is or most likely is lock stick, then you misrepresented the knife (regardless of whether you or anyone considers it normal for Emerson's).

If you're willing to pay to send it to EKI, then accept the return and send it in yourself. The buyer's pics show no sign of any alteration, tampering.

The RIGHT thing to do here is accept the return and the fact that FULL disclosure when selling a knife of this caliber is of the utmost importance and you dropped the ball.
 
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