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Problems with JCrow97
- Thread starter egally08
- Start date
I finally heard from PP today.
They asked me to provide further prove of damage by taking it to a shop to have it looked at and given an estimate of repair, or just a documentation of the issues with the knife. A local gun shop near me, the owner is a knife maker, so I will bring it to him to get the paperwork needed for a refund.
After that, it should be a couple days before they tell me to send it back for a refund.
They asked me to provide further prove of damage by taking it to a shop to have it looked at and given an estimate of repair, or just a documentation of the issues with the knife. A local gun shop near me, the owner is a knife maker, so I will bring it to him to get the paperwork needed for a refund.
After that, it should be a couple days before they tell me to send it back for a refund.
I guess damage wasn't the right word. They just want documentation stating that it is not in the condition in which it was advertised. I'll get a report saying that there is in fact blade play and centering issues. I will also ask the person that does the report to state if and how it devalues the knife. Once I send that to them, I will be able to send the knife back for a refund.
From PayPals email to me:
"
In order to continue with our investigation, we need documentation
supporting your claim that the item is damaged or significantly not as
described. Please obtain a document (such as an estimate or invoice) from
an unbiased third-party, such as a dealer, repair shop, appraiser, or
another individual or organization that is qualified in the area of the
item in question (other than you).
This document should detail the extent of the damage or clearly explain how
the item received significantly differs from the item advertised. Please do
not proceed with any repairs or alterations to the item, as doing so will
limit our ability to successfully resolve your claim, and may result in the
cancellation of your dispute. "
"
In order to continue with our investigation, we need documentation
supporting your claim that the item is damaged or significantly not as
described. Please obtain a document (such as an estimate or invoice) from
an unbiased third-party, such as a dealer, repair shop, appraiser, or
another individual or organization that is qualified in the area of the
item in question (other than you).
This document should detail the extent of the damage or clearly explain how
the item received significantly differs from the item advertised. Please do
not proceed with any repairs or alterations to the item, as doing so will
limit our ability to successfully resolve your claim, and may result in the
cancellation of your dispute. "
I'd be a little wary about "sending it back for a refund"
I would want to know how much money exactly PayPal is in control of before you return it. If they end up ruling in your favor, but will not guarantee the return of your funds once you return the knife, you might end up with no knife and no money.
I would want to know how much money exactly PayPal is in control of before you return it. If they end up ruling in your favor, but will not guarantee the return of your funds once you return the knife, you might end up with no knife and no money.
I appreciate your concern, but once you return the item, PP verifies with the shipped company and refunds you whether he has the money or not. Whenever someone files a claim, PP freezes that amount in your account. If you don't have it, the account goes negative, but the buyer still gets the money.
I plan on sending it by registered mail, and taking a video of the entire boxing and shipping process.
I plan on sending it by registered mail, and taking a video of the entire boxing and shipping process.
I have heard of cases where buyers in your shoes get told they are in the right, but until PayPal can recover the funds from the seller they are SOL. I found this one from the forum here in 2009.
The eligibility of off eBay purchases may have changed since then but it looks like purchases off ebay are only covered for 'Item Not Received' and not 'significantly not as described', and then only if you bought the item through the PayPal website.
From Protection for Buyers on the Paypal website (bold text used to emphasize relevent sections):
As much as I like PayPal I have learned to ignore anything they say to me verbally, and pay very close attention to the printed rules.
Get it in writing, and good luck.
One of Jason's first replies to me quoted the exact same thing. He tried saying I wasn't eligible. You made the same mistake he did. It's easy to misinterpret the rules with the way they laid them out.
Where it says "for eligible items only INR only ect" that does not pertain to the statement directly above it(where it says off ebay). They are two separate things. Look at the beginning of the section, it is stating what IS covered. Items purchased off of ebay are covered. Only items that are eligible are Not received. Eligible items fall under non tangible goods. Like providing a service.
I fell for the exact same thing, but the person at PP cleared it up for me immediately. I appreciate you taking the time to investigate.
Where it says "for eligible items only INR only ect" that does not pertain to the statement directly above it(where it says off ebay). They are two separate things. Look at the beginning of the section, it is stating what IS covered. Items purchased off of ebay are covered. Only items that are eligible are Not received. Eligible items fall under non tangible goods. Like providing a service.
I fell for the exact same thing, but the person at PP cleared it up for me immediately. I appreciate you taking the time to investigate.
I agree with Stu's interpretation. I don't see any other way to interpret it.
That said, I truly hope PayPal covers you. Perhaps they interpret their rules more loosely or make exceptions. Would be prudent to have communications with them in writing if that is not already the case.
That said, I truly hope PayPal covers you. Perhaps they interpret their rules more loosely or make exceptions. Would be prudent to have communications with them in writing if that is not already the case.
Each line is separate. You can ignore the bottom line for all intents and purposes. It clearly states that purchases made off ebay are covered. I spoke to two different reps to confirm this, and the fact that they are even moving forward shows this is the case.
a13. Protection for Buyers
13.1 How am I protected if I have a problem with a purchase?
PayPal Buyer Protection is available for purchases you make both on eBay and off eBay:
Purchases made on eBay
For eligible items, protection is available for both items not received (INR) and significantly not as described (SNAD); and
Purchases made off eBay
For eligible items protection is available for INR only(this applies only for intangible goods, like a service offered)
Actually if you look at the page, they're all listed as bullet points. It's thoroughly confusing, (in fact really confusing), but they're bullet points - Purchases made through Ebay and Purchases made off Ebay are not headers on the buyer protection page.
I don't understand what "For eligible items protection is available for INR only" applies to though, but Egally must be correct if they are allowing him to file SNAD for an item purchased off Ebay.
My only concern is the the item is not SIGNIFICANTLY not as described.
Yeah I get they're drafted as bullets and not headings. It's terribly confusing drafting. But I can't reconcile these two statements unless the clause before each is treated as a heading:
For eligible items, protection is available for both items not received (INR) and significantly not as described (SNAD)
For eligible items protection is available for INR only
I know egally says the second one is supposed to apply to intangible goods, but I don't see that written anywhere. What I see is that intangible goods purchased off ebay are not eligible at all.
In any event, we're probably spending a little too much time interpreting PayPal's rules for them. If they're proceeding with an SNAD claim and asking for proof, then it seems they're willing to cover him, which would be the fair result.
For eligible items, protection is available for both items not received (INR) and significantly not as described (SNAD)
For eligible items protection is available for INR only
I know egally says the second one is supposed to apply to intangible goods, but I don't see that written anywhere. What I see is that intangible goods purchased off ebay are not eligible at all.
In any event, we're probably spending a little too much time interpreting PayPal's rules for them. If they're proceeding with an SNAD claim and asking for proof, then it seems they're willing to cover him, which would be the fair result.
I agree with that
I'd just hate to see egally follow poor advice from some PayPal rep on the phone who cares not at all, and has spent less time thinking about this than most people who have read this far in this thread, and end up with nothing.
CYA CYA CYA
I'd be a little wary about "sending it back for a refund"
I would want to know how much money exactly PayPal is in control of before you return it. If they end up ruling in your favor, but will not guarantee the return of your funds once you return the knife, you might end up with no knife and no money.
Ya i wouldnt do that. I'm sure he spent the money already. So if you send him the knife, he keeps the $1200, the Emerson custom, AND even if pp pays you and his account goes into the red you just open another account...
I would want to know how much money exactly PayPal is in control of before you return it. If they end up ruling in your favor, but will not guarantee the return of your funds once you return the knife, you might end up with no knife and no money.
Ya i wouldnt do that. I'm sure he spent the money already. So if you send him the knife, he keeps the $1200, the Emerson custom, AND even if pp pays you and his account goes into the red you just open another account...
egally08 ,
I don't think anyone wants to see you lose. I don't like , I told you so's. Those concerned , all are looking out for your interest.
I agree sometimes the phone call can be less fact than opinion. Its a shame its not cut and dry or it doesn't seem to be. I'm not always right in my optimism.
I'd say still get it ready for the process and ask again before returning to jcrow If they were to say you'll be fine and it proves otherwise. I will cancel my paypal.
I can't support that. I don't have too. I will get by.
I don't think anyone wants to see you lose. I don't like , I told you so's. Those concerned , all are looking out for your interest.
I agree sometimes the phone call can be less fact than opinion. Its a shame its not cut and dry or it doesn't seem to be. I'm not always right in my optimism.
I'd say still get it ready for the process and ask again before returning to jcrow If they were to say you'll be fine and it proves otherwise. I will cancel my paypal.
I can't support that. I don't have too. I will get by.