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Thanks Boru13.
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Bad PSA: Use CAUTION selling to BF buyer "LIN" (AKA Kai Zhao)
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Gastonknife
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Question for the moderators; and I am not trying to get in the middle of any of this but.............Is this thread really proper? We have one member basically branding another member a dishonest knife grabber who sends many knives to China and implying that he may use them to counterfeit copies. Yet, the OP has no transactions with the member and the only negative fact he can substantiate is an old thread that has seem to be settled between Bobby and Lin. Whatever needed to be addressed was already done in the Branton thread prior. Nothing new here but baseless allegations. It seems like sour grapes because the other member seems to have interest in the same knives. Just trying to understand that is all. thanks
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You don't have all the facts Gaston. And did you miss the part where I mentioned that I had discussed this with Spark in March, and he said it would be OK for me to start this thread?
You seem to be missing the main point, this thread is here to address that LIN is using a proxy address without being upfront about it. Everything else IS speculation until the point that LIN answers my questions. FYI, I've spoken with several members that have done business with LIN, and didn't even know that LIN was using a proxy. More than one of them would not have sold to him if they would have known that fact before the deal was done.
ETA - Y'all behave, I'm going hunting. Back in ~6 hours, unless I'm cleaning and butchering an animal.
Gastonknife
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Other than the proxy thing; there is no "facts". And that was addressed prior in the Branton thread. Nothing here is new.
However, the question was asked to the moderators - NOT to you; unless you have taken on a new task and become one. Thank very much.
However, the question was asked to the moderators - NOT to you; unless you have taken on a new task and become one. Thank very much.
. Please Guys, let's not get personal; this whole subject really isn't worth it. 
braillediver
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And this is contrary to what Bladeforums Policy? Sour Grapes.
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Perhaps none explicitly, yet one could argue that the rule below was at least being tip toed and at worst outright broken.
http://www.bladeforums.com/help/exchange-rules/
Buyers/Buying -
4. Provide an accurate shipping address. Make sure the seller has that shipping address. Open and clear communication via email or Private Messaging is encouraged between the parties involved for every detail of the transaction.
As long as the transaction goes smoothly and everyone gets theirs, then I suppose this bit of info would be effectively moot in the end.
However, not every transaction will go 100% smooth and when it's due to extra parts at play that the seller was not informed about, has no control over, and may not have even agreed to in the first place, that would make this information about the buyer pertinent prior to payment and shipment.
gentelmen...
This is Mr. Lin's statement about that question. He posted it in THIS thread
The LINKED thread was resolved a year ago, and that was the only posted issue about Mr. Lin.
I believe even the proxy issue is a non issue here.
Hypothetical statements are doing this thread an injustice.
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He did provide an accurate address. There's no rule that it has to be your HOME address. If there was, all of us who use PO boxes and mail drop address are violating rules, too.
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You are right and that would make for a silly rule.
An accurate address was provided and the seller successfully shipped it to the correct address. I take issue with the buyer holding him accountable for the secondary trip around the planet which he was unaware of and had no control over.
My main point in posting that rule regarded the very last sentence. Important details were clearly omitted.
PeteyTwoPointOne
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^^^^ Best post in the entire thread!
But if this thread had a theme color, it'd be GRAY ...
The biggest problem here, and what I really want to highlight, are the deceptive buying practices. Is LIN upfront about it? Not in the least.That's the reason for this PSA thread.
Should've stopped there, IMHO.
Now, let's talk a bit about some of the collateral damage. The thread I linked in my OP highlights some of the potential issues that may occur when unknowingly shipping to a proxy address. I mentioned this in my OP, but how many flat-out counterfeits have we seen coming out of China the past few years? Way, way, WAY too many!!!You get the picture!)
How do they do it? Pictures, dimensions, and descriptions from the internet only get these slimy counterfeiters so far. To get their copies so close, they need to have an actual example of the model in-hand to compare with. How do they get them, when so many dealers/sellers flat refuse to ship to China? I think you see where I'm going with this.
Capitalism? Yeah, sure it is. But that's NOT really the point here! More the point, many, MANY of the knives I've seen purchased by LIN are custom, one-of-a-kind knives. After going to China, what are the odds that they'll ever be seen again in our enthusiast knife community again? Nil. If you're indeed here on this forum to be a real part of that community (and obviously some aren't), that should bother you. More than a little bit if you really start to think about it.
We're not talking about a single foreign individual buying something for themselves here and there through our forum, are we? (We even have some of those folks here, from, wait for it, China!) that's buying up many tens of thousands of dollars in goods out of the hands of our community, and many don't even realize what's happening. Yeah, that bothers me a bit...
TLDR; too bad! Go read it!
This is a bit beyond the pale...while you stop <just> short of outing LIN as a mule for the Chinese Connection...seems a little like you're trying to implicate him by bringing it up in the same breath. That's the way I took it, at least.
As much as I'd hate to be forever memorialized as customer zero in the BUSSE CLONEPOCALYPSE, does anyone have any definitive PROOF that LIN is doing anything other than reselling to grateful Chinese blade lovin brethren?
For that matter...who can prove that a blade they sold to a good 'ole boy from LA <Lower Alabama> didn't somehow wind up in the hand of cloners?
If someone chooses to no longer deal with LIN because of the possible complications of dealing with a proxy buyer, that's one thing...but I'm not gonna lose sleep worrying about if any blades I sold are gonna wind up as weapons in The Clone Wars without proof. This could happen <probably already happened> by selling to ANYONE!
I reserve the right to change my mind if evidence is revealed to prove copyright shenanigans on LIN's part....
I am grateful for the discussion of the pitfalls of proxy buying/selling being brought up, however!
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Absolutely. That proxy BS is the show stopper, for me.
Also, once a knife is sold, the buyer can do with it as he pleases......it's his knife.
Like you say BW, all the seller's obligations have been fulfilled when it arrived at the US address. Anything after that is on the buyer.
Period.
Joe
Also, once a knife is sold, the buyer can do with it as he pleases......it's his knife.
Like you say BW, all the seller's obligations have been fulfilled when it arrived at the US address. Anything after that is on the buyer.
Period.
Joe
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I answered every one of your questions promptly, thank you very much.
P dot S: Yes, what you're doing in my thread is trolling. Start your own, and it might be a different story.
I think it's the Perry Mason in me. At any rate, I apologize, my attempt to show it from the other fellow's point of view backfired and does indeed smack of trolling.
I guess part of me is just plain tickled by Commie authorities getting the run around, because they are. LIN obviously puts work and some expense into this endeavor, I also like that in buying the knives, LIN's helping folks wishing to sell the knives (likely so that they can buy more knives). By "proxy", (pun intended) he, and his Chinese collector friends are admitting the superiority of American-made knives and helping American business and in my opinion that's a great thing. Barring Mr. Branton, there doesn't seem to be any dissatisfied sellers, and apparently that issue got resolved. How big of a market is there for $1200 worth of knife(s)?
I've never bought a blade (or lot of them) worth that much at one time in my life and I'd wager neither has 99.9% of the folks who are members here. Business is a good thing, that's all I'm saying. Again, apologies for the light trolling, and now I'll excuse myself because I've just said what i should have in the first place.
Great post JJ! But I, for one, will be calling you Perry from now on! Or maybe Counselor!
Joe
Joe
I think it's the Perry Mason in me. At any rate, I apologize, my attempt to show it from the other fellow's point of view backfired and does indeed smack of trolling.
I guess part of me is just plain tickled by Commie authorities getting the run around, because they are. LIN obviously puts work and some expense into this endeavor, I also like that in buying the knives, LIN's helping folks wishing to sell the knives (likely so that they can buy more knives). By "proxy", (pun intended) he, and his Chinese collector friends are admitting the superiority of American-made knives and helping American business and in my opinion that's a great thing. Barring Mr. Branton, there doesn't seem to be any dissatisfied sellers, and apparently that issue got resolved. How big of a market is there for $1200 worth of knife(s)?
I've never bought a blade (or lot of them) worth that much at one time in my life and I'd wager neither has 99.9% of the folks who are members here. Business is a good thing, that's all I'm saying. Again, apologies for the light trolling, and now I'll excuse myself because I've just said what i should have in the first place.
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I'm having trouble understanding some things about shipping to the proxy address. In the other thread, there was an issue with not being able to collect insurance and it tied in with the proxy address. I don't fully understand what happened there, but I think that would be a big concern as a seller, and I'd want to know if I were shipping to a proxy if that's the case. Can anyone walk me through what I'm missing there?
Also, we see all the time in the exchange where a seller states to the effect that it is the buyer's responsibility on international shipments once the package is delivered to the post office. Even if that's agreed to in the sale, what if the buyer makes a claim anyway? Wouldn't paypal just rule in favor of the buyer if it's lost in international shipping, even though there was a gentleman's agreement?
Also, we see all the time in the exchange where a seller states to the effect that it is the buyer's responsibility on international shipments once the package is delivered to the post office. Even if that's agreed to in the sale, what if the buyer makes a claim anyway? Wouldn't paypal just rule in favor of the buyer if it's lost in international shipping, even though there was a gentleman's agreement?
gonebad395
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No matter what the feeling on either side this post now opens a can of worms. By that I mean now a line has been drawn in the sand. That people can just decide that they if they don't like a persons deals or what have you on here they can just start a thread about them without ever dealing with said person or company. I mean GB&U is as I understand to let people know the good or the bad of the deals you personally had. Now once posted people weigh in their thoughts on right or wrong but the OP was involved in the original deal. This is not the case here and just seems wrong. I mean what's next people being able to leave trader feed back because they missed out on a knife or gear? Or that someone decided they didn't want to sell to the first person to say I'll take it because that person is a pita so that skipped person can leave feed back over being butt hurt because that's what this thread is like.
Mr. HardKnocks,
Somehow sir, the Insurance issue was never addressed in the LINKED thread.
I read, and re-read it several times.
There is no mention of an insurance claim.
IMHO "Gentlemens' agreements" are worth as much as air.
I have very strong convictions, and stand behind my word yet time, and time again people tend to "flake", and try to disappear into the fabric.
It is perhaps a generational thing. Gentlemen seem to become very rare after the 1960's.
If I can look a man in the eye, and shake on a deal, hell or high water could not break that agreement.
Even with vouchers on the INTERNET I am hesitant to make deals. I've been burned on deals several times, and the other party simply disappears.
Somehow sir, the Insurance issue was never addressed in the LINKED thread.
I read, and re-read it several times.
There is no mention of an insurance claim.
IMHO "Gentlemens' agreements" are worth as much as air.
I have very strong convictions, and stand behind my word yet time, and time again people tend to "flake", and try to disappear into the fabric.
It is perhaps a generational thing. Gentlemen seem to become very rare after the 1960's.
If I can look a man in the eye, and shake on a deal, hell or high water could not break that agreement.
Even with vouchers on the INTERNET I am hesitant to make deals. I've been burned on deals several times, and the other party simply disappears.
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Here's the post from the OP of that thread that has me wondering the specifics, bolded section by me. He mentions in other posts that he was contacted about the damage 2-3 weeks after it was delivered, so maybe that's why he was unable to collect even though he insured it.
"I am not saying he is a bad guy. I can back up everything I said. I have the paper trail.
I feel like I was misled into thinking he lived at the address that I shipped to. The communications with him sucked. This could have been resolved in a week. I have lost business because PP locked up my account for a few weeks. I paid insurance that I can not collect on. I have a knife with a broken tip coming back to me that has been the China and back. Multiple people have handled this knife. Now, I have to ship to the maker and back and pay him to fix the knife."
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Peter Hartwig
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Without re-reading the whole thread:
Lin claimed the knife was damaged in the original shipping to a US address, but picked the knife up(believe there was a delay in doing so) and took it to china before making a claim to the seller. If an immediate claim had been made when it arrived at the US destination, USPS supposedly would have paid on the insurance that the seller bought. They are not going to pay after the knife has been taken on a trip, so the seller was left to pay the damages(though some settlement was reached). The seller was not aware that the US address was not the final destination, thus the proxy argument.
Hope that explains it
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Yes that is helpful Peter, thank you. I've been thinking on it as well, and believe you have it. Not so much that it was sent to a proxied address, but the events that ensued.....possibly delayed inspection, definitely a delayed claim of damage by the buyer, and product taken out of the country. I guess I have mixed feelings as to whether I would ship to someone's proxy as it doesn't now seem safer to ship to a stateside proxy than it does to ship internationally, although I have done so in the past believing it was safer.
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