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How To Put an End to the F&F and +% in the exchange.

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Noodle methinks your ire is due to being one of the called out sellers. Buyer is helping the seller, not vice versa. A merchant needs to present a single price to his customer. To do otherwise is condescending and poor business.
Also there is absolutely no defense for Friends and Family. It is not meant for business transactions (ie buying and selling), and it offers no protections for either party; asking for it is not only dishonest towards PayPal, who provides a robust framework for online transactions, but it shows a lack of care for the customer.
 
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There's always some <insert preferred term here> that tries to make this about the dollar figure...probably the same clowns that claim that people that don't want to post "I'll take it" in an ad must be hiding their purchases from the wives. SMH.
I can't even bring myself to explain it to them any more...waste of time and energy.
 
RevDevil said:
Message the seller and let them know you want the item for whatever the price listed in the ad is. If they come back with "add 3%", say "no, I want it for the advertised price, yes or no?" If they decline, they just lost a sure sale.
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That sounds really rude. You'd be initiating personal animosity.
 
buendia518 said:
That sounds really rude. You'd be initiating personal animosity.
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Dude, Somtimes we are all rude, and willing to provoke the hell out of each other. The bottom line is that we are all trying to learn the the art of a smooth and legal transaction.
 
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Personally, I think that F+F for business transactions is immoral. However, I don't take issue with paying extra for shipping, or even taxes where pertinent. These added costs are common for most large online stores, even if the advertised price doesn't include these costs. These added costs (e.g. tax) are also common in brick and mortar stores (although I believe sales tax is negated if the business is installing said merchandise; your state may be different)... and just to be technical, I believe that bartering and trading items is technically also considered income and is considered taxable by the IRS... so if you want to be righteous about fees, make sure you report all of your trades come tax time. I'm pretty sure that the EU countries have taxes baked into the advertised price, but I don't live there (VAT). That being said, I wholeheartedly agree that F+F for business transactions is an abuse of PayPal and hurts customers' online purchasing protection.
 
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This is a personal suggestion, not speaking as a moderator in any way, shape, or form. My moderation is limited to my house, and this ain't it!

Has anyone considered coming up with a sales format that let's buyers know that you will list the bottom line price, only accept Goods & Services, and where you will ship to? A way to say "Hey, I'm easy peasy, lemon squeezy and don't want you to do math, I want you to pay what is listed, end of story"?

If the format had a name or acronym, it would help sellers and buyers promote it. If the format became the status quo, then new sellers would be encouraged to use it, and salty sellers might decide to change to it.

In my opinion, adding rules, regulations, and ratting does nothing to solve the problem, is just as ridiculous as adding fees and handling charges to a sale, and creates more negativity and crap that we don't need, especially when everyone is carrying a sharp knife and might know how to use it.

Just an idea, but sometimes less, is more.
 
buendia518 said:
That sounds really rude. You'd be initiating personal animosity.
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Rude? How so exactly? I have to disagree with you on this. Rude is selling an item to someone and asking them to pay fees that YOU owe on YOUR behalf, on top of some kind of premium they decided to tack on to make an extra $100 or whatever. You don't think that in and of itself creates animosity? Look at the threads about how much people hate the addition of fees. Those sellers are cutting their own nose off to spite their face.

If you have an item say $450, NIB knife and you are asking $550 + fees because it is a LE or something. You're going to make some extra money. SO If I send you a private message or email and say, "Look I'll take it for the %550 out the door", then you have the right to accept my offer or decline it. There is no time or space for anyone to get all butt hurt over that. Now, if I told you, "I will give you $250 and a minty new 8Cr13MoV Tactiturd Knife, Made in China", I could see how someone might get a little knicker twisted.

My suggestion at least has some tact as it is a discussion that happens privately between 2 people without wrecking the sales thread. Now that you mention it, If someone is going to get their feelings hurt over that, then I would rather not deal with them at all in any regard. I have a low tolerance for melodramatics and overall stupidity (not directed at anyone in this thread, just speaking in general). I do not well working with overly emotional male adults over what should be a simple yes or no transaction done in a respectful manner. YMMV, of course. If someone gets pissed off, I sure hope there is a legitimate reason for it, rather than a simple bit of nonsense, it makes the ordeal worthy of the high blood pressure and resulting rage.
 
lessismore said:
Has anyone considered coming up with a sales format that let's buyers know that you will list the bottom line price, only accept Goods & Services, and where you will ship to? A way to say "Hey, I'm easy peasy, lemon squeezy and don't want you to do math, I want you to pay what is listed, end of story"?
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Plenty of sellers do this. My sales threads always say something to the effect of "price is via PayPal Goods & Services, and includes shipping in the US." Others say something like "price includes PayPal fees, shipped CONUS."
 
blanco112 said:
Plenty of sellers do this. My sales threads always say something to the effect of "price is via PayPal Goods & Services, and includes shipping in the US." Others say something like "price includes PayPal fees, shipped CONUS."
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I think less was implying that "it" needed a slogan...

Selling Yada yada yada. Bf standards apply.

Or something similar.
 
marcus52AR said:
I think less was implying that "it" needed a slogan...

Selling Yada yada yada. Bf standards apply.

Or something similar.
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I gotcha now. I think the problem is that a lot of sellers have developed their own terms and caveats and want to be crystal clear about these things. So an acronym or slogan might work but would need to be understood even by a buyer who has never seen it before.
 
blanco112 said:
I gotcha now. I think the problem is that a lot of sellers have developed their own terms and caveats and want to be crystal clear about these things. So an acronym or slogan might work but would need to be understood even by a buyer who has never seen it before.
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I was thinking the same as i was posting.

I guess the members that would want to elaborate could still do so, or have the option to state "standard BF selling rules".
 
Yup, for example, let's call the format "XYZ", a simple format with two or three lines that outlines G&S only, Price covers shipping to xxxx, etc. It would need to be created and agreed upon.

A thread could be used to reference the details, part of the format could be a link to that thread...."XYZ sale definitions and conditions".

Just looking for a solution, a thread like this pops up every few months, and usually ends in frustration.
 
US Addresses - all inclusive is my typical format - US/AI - but that won't stop the guys from asking payment via Friends & Family because they don't want to add an extra $6.00 or so to their asking price (or pay that $ 6.00 o_O). The point of this thread is that PayPal F&F should never be an option - should never be asked for - never be offered - never be accepted. I don't mind sending along this thread to awaken a few dolts but it is much easier to just move on if the terms of a sale/trade don't comply with your standards. Just sayin'.

Ray
 
I always put "$xxx PayPal G&S shipped Priority Insured in the US" in the post, I could start putting "$xxx PP G&S shipped" in the title. Seems pretty self explanatory to me:)

~Chip
 
This is an excerpt from one of my sales threads:

PeteyTwoPointOne said:
PRICE: SOLD $469 <all in, PayPal Goods & Services, no surprise fees>
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I'm a simple man, so I keep things simple to help keep everything straight.

The price I list is ALL INCLUSIVE <denoted by "all in" & "no surprise fees"> and it's is the total amount of $USD the BUYER TRANSFERS TO ME via PayPal Goods&Services. Shipping expenses and PayPal's fees came out of my end of the $469, as they should.

I wound up with a little less than $440 net on that deal after the dust settled. The $440 was a figure I had already pre-determined in my mind as a total amount I could live with.

Life's hard enough already...why make a knife sale more convoluted than necessary?
 
I'm in -- I almost do all of this anyway. On the few occasions where I REALLY wanted a "plus fees" knife, I offered the sellers back their "plus fees" price as an "all included" price on principle. Even though I wanted the knives pretty badly, I was prepared to walk away but in all cases my offer was accepted. In the furure, if I am ever refused, I'll link this thread.
 
I agree with this thread's suggestions, but would prefer it if it were a forum rule.

And as to people suggesting it's about the $3, it is not. By asking for F&F the seller is 1) asking the buyer to misrepresent the transaction to PayPal, and 2) give up purchase protections with that fraud.

I consider that insulting and predatory.

Add to that the unnecessary friction about whether PayPal fees are this-or-that percent for international transactions, or what is or isn't included in "net to me", and the whole practice is unnecessarily fractious.
 
powernoodle said:
This is ridiculous.

So some potential buyers think its great if a seller says "the price is $103 with free shipping and I'll eat the Paypal fee", but they get their panties bunched up if the seller says "the price is $100 with free shipping; please at 3% for Paypal".

Newsflash: $103 = $103. Its same dang price!

This just demonstrates how kooky the human mind can be, and why ad agencies and marketing are so effective. Its the same price either way. But say it one way, and the buyer thinks he got a great deal. Say the other way, its he is incensed! Them is fightin' words!

Sweet Mother of Pearl. This is probably the dumbest thing that ever pops up on BF. Second dumbest is "two is one and one is none" - which is self-stultifying - but that's for another thread. Honorable mention for dumb goes to 1) those stupid paracord bracelets that guys wear solely to make themselves look outdoorsy, and 2) SOS modes on lights (that no one in the history of mankind has ever used). I could go on, but someone might get grumpy.

Moderators: please place this post in the BF Hall of Fame, along with all of my other posts. Thanks.
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Yeah, no. It would be one thing if all sales prices were $100 and the fee was always exactly what PayPal charges, and you didn't charge the fee for alternate forms of payment.

But:

1. Almost nothing costs $100 exactly, and PayPal fees vary depending on the sale price. It's lazy to make the buyer go calculate it, and it inevitably opens the door to rounding issues and people being butt hurt about a few cents.
2. If you are using PayPal for an exchange of goods and services rather than a one-way transfer to a friend or family member, using F&F is a plain and simple, prima facie violation, of PayPal T&S.
3. No one is arguing about G&S because it's somehow a better deal than F&F.
 
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