Question for military or ex military personnel (soldiers)

[EDCanAdamas]

I dont agree.
With few exceptions, there are very few instances in modern warfare, where a knife is needed for combat.

Okay, combat use in the sense of disabling a foe is a stretch, but stranger things have happened. Combat use of a knife that revolves around the knife as a tool could be a more common occurrence, to include a variety of combat-related tasks such as cutting a soldier out of a damaged vehicle, prying open supplies, and conducting battlefield first aid with supplies that have to be slightly altered to be applied.

There are different scenarios to ponder.

As for Israeli MIL personnel, thats a bad example to choose; most if not all are required to carry a firearm. Even off duty. You'll see the strange sight of an IDF woman soldier on the beach in a bikini and rifle slung.

You got me here, I forgot that the Israelis are not disarmed on their posts/bases like the U.S. Military is in the United States.

Further more, even if an attack appears out of the blue, your training or your knife wont matter an iota. Imagine being in a super market line and the guys behind you decides to stab you. You get no warning.

No/little warning of the Initial Attack. So the bad guy stabs you in the back and does not hit anything vital, now you react with what ever makes the most sense, which could be a knife if your firearm(s) are not reachable. Would you rather struggle for your life with bare hands or a with knife?

A recent scenario in Europe - two German police officers on foot patrol, a loon stabs one of them, lady police officer calmly draws HK and shoots attacker dead. No amount of combat training would have helped the first officer from being stabbed, as the attack happened out of the blue and Im pretty certain, that the lady cop was happy to have a gun.

Knife and/or hand to hand combat training was probably the farthest from her mind.[Quote/]

Probably was, and she was lucky to have a firearm/the ability to access that firearm while the bad guy was in the process of extricating his weapon from the original victim.

I understand that carrying extra weight sucks, but is a 4-5 oz folding knife really going to break the bank when it is one more option among many?

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

I dont agree.
With few exceptions, there are very few instances in modern warfare, where a knife is needed for combat.

Okay, combat use in the sense of disabling a foe is a stretch, but stranger things have happened. Combat use of a knife that revolves around the knife as a tool could be a more common occurrence, to include a variety of combat-related tasks such as cutting a soldier out of a damaged vehicle, prying open supplies, and conducting battlefield first aid with supplies that have to be slightly altered to be applied.

There are different scenarios to ponder.

As for Israeli MIL personnel, thats a bad example to choose; most if not all are required to carry a firearm. Even off duty. You'll see the strange sight of an IDF woman soldier on the beach in a bikini and rifle slung.

You got me here, I forgot that the Israelis are not disarmed on their posts/bases like the U.S. Military is in the United States.

Further more, even if an attack appears out of the blue, your training or your knife wont matter an iota. Imagine being in a super market line and the guys behind you decides to stab you. You get no warning.

No/little warning of the Initial Attack. So the bad guy stabs you in the back and does not hit anything vital, now you react with what ever makes the most sense, which could be a knife if your firearm(s) are not reachable. Would you rather struggle for your life with bare hands or a with knife?

A recent scenario in Europe - two German police officers on foot patrol, a loon stabs one of them, lady police officer calmly draws HK and shoots attacker dead. No amount of combat training would have helped the first officer from being stabbed, as the attack happened out of the blue and Im pretty certain, that the lady cop was happy to have a gun.

Knife and/or hand to hand combat training was probably the farthest from her mind.[Quote/]

Probably was, and she was lucky to have a firearm/the ability to access that firearm while the bad guy was in the process of extricating his weapon from the original victim.

I understand that carrying extra weight sucks, but is a 4-5 oz folding knife really going to break the bank when it is one more option among many?

According to me, you hit each nail right....nothing I could disagree with has been said.

In relation to last blue section i must highlight importance of carrying fixed blade over folder.This is directly my answer why fixed, referring to unforseen,or sudden close quarter bodily attack of insurgency on soldier.This sort of situation simply doesn't allow enough time to - looking for small tool like folder in the pockets or even ruck,pockets are often deep or folder is in its leather /nylon case, first it must be found (in highly stressful rush during deadly attack,which takes place usually within fragments of seconds) , opening folder after and only now (too late) to engage it into counter weapon,,,,with not even sufficient length of blade to reach vital parts of insurgent,along chances of breaking (snapping) folder in half, as all of their constructions have weakness point within pivots,where each folder is prone to break,this to me is vivid scenario, why would I always carry fixed blade - always know exactly it's by my right hand,(never have to look for it,never have to loose a vital second that decide between my life or death by opening it, it can be deployed extremly fast,rapidly ON TIME, and have EFFECTIVE REACH to all vital parts, once imbedded in insurgent's body, not to worry about locking mechanism and own fingers....Fixed blade is the fastest,more effective knife for self-defence or even offensive action

Thanks for patience with my English, hope you can translate at least some of it

 

[Frailer]

"NAJAF, Iraq — One of his friends was dead, 12 others lay wounded and the four soldiers still left standing were surrounded and out of ammunition. So Salvadoran Cpl. Samuel Toloza said a prayer, whipped out his knife and charged the Iraqi gunmen.

In one of the only known instances of hand-to-hand combat in the Iraq conflict, Cpl. Toloza stabbed several attackers swarming around a comrade. The stunned assailants backed away momentarily, just as a relief column came to the unit’s rescue."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2004/may/3/20040503-115511-7092r/

It wasn't a fixed blade...but I'll bet he was glad he didn't just have one of those folding can openers people like posting photos of.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/toloza.html

Kufa and Najaf were interesting around this time. Based on the date of the story, I'm pretty sure I know *exactly* when this happened. Multi-National Division-Center--headed up by the Spaniards at the time--were operating under very restrictive rules of engagement. Shortly before Easter 2004 Muqtada al Sadr decided the rising tensions in Fulluja provided a golden opportunity to assert his authority.

Since our (US) ROE was considerably less restrictive, we got the call to quickly move to the area and keep the upstart cleric in a box until the Marines could get Fallujah under control. I was only involved in one brief battle during my time there, and the only knife I had with me was my lowly Victorinox Compact.

So I was forced to sort things out with judicious use of an F-15E.

 

[NativeCraft]

I was in one of the last units to do the bayonet course, I've heard they no longer even do it. If that tells you anything.

Spirit of the Bayonet! "What makes the grass grow?"

 

[shinyedges]

Spirit of the Bayonet! "What makes the grass grow?"

Blood blood bright red blood! Makes the green grass grow!

 

[GREENJACKET]

Serousbladedeno1, Bladescout,

We all know a well made fixed blade is stronger than nearly all folders. A well made folder can be stronger than a poorly made fixed. This thread was directed at the combat fixed blade.

What this thread shows is most modern military find a medium folder or/and multitool more than adequate for their needs and fixed blades are rare, or at least rarely put to any real use.
Fixed blades are a liability in crowd control, added weight and where do you put them on an already crowded webbing order? There is enough to carry anyway, and a fixed blade can't do much more than what a good folder can do. Military personnel in high threat zones have their handguns and assault rifles as personal protection; knives don't come into the equation.
They are not redundant but presently not very popular.

Most loony attacks are so sudden there isn't much defence to start. Few people I know are in "watch threat zone" every minute. No one can live like that. At best with training it can be tuned and turned on for a period of time. Loony attacks are either sustained assault or ambush and retire. The former the victim can but defend as best they can, the later hope help arrives. The victims are at a huge disadvantage, and even the best reaction is slow.
Police officers, and soldiers in regular combat are more tuned as they have been regularly exposed to such high stress situations. Off duty they are only a bit faster. Experience will give them the advantage.
There is a lot more to it than I've put here but I have never felt the need to carry a knife for self defence.

We can all think up good uses for a good fixed blade. Most here are knife enthusiasts. But to try and justify them to a professional military that hasn't got a use for them isn't helpful. If the military needed them they would carry them. Some individuals do carry them, a few at the bottom of a bergen that would take ten minutes to dig out, others closer at hand. Those that do, have their own reasons, or its theatre specific. But the vast majority don't.

There has been some interesting and varied input to this thread. Different situations and different times produced different result. The facts are that the classic combat utility fixed blade is far less common that enthusiasts and the manufacturers hype would want us to believe. Just the way it is.

If I was doing my time now I'd probably go and buy a Spyderco Military folder, and take my Leatherman and SAK Huntsman.

 

[Charlie Mike]

 

[NativeCraft]

Blood blood bright red blood! Makes the green grass grow!

You got it, brother!

 

[shinyedges]

You got it, brother!

Been years since I yelled them words, only someone who's done it, would think of it.

Be safe, brother.

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

Here is (UTON vzor 75),at the time of my service - army issue fixed blade for Paras air regiment

I don't know if I can put this link here just for picture,but here it is (great ergonomic knife, with add on options) quite a big history behind them too...
https://goo.gl/images/LhFNDy

 

[Quiet]

Many thanks for all opinions and experiences shared in here so far, also for great photography additions of few guys! Interesting to read different point between various military or ex military guys.My initial intentions were not exactly to compare pro's and con's of folders vs fixed in the battlefields or on everyday soldier's duties, however two major groups emerged here, one that see fixed blade on duty as necessary while other group not and rather opt for folders/multitool...i don't mind the way thread evolved, as all additions are at some point related and discussion goes well and informative so far.

I personally believe that military personnel shall be definitely equipped with fixed blades, regardless of climate.It doesn't matter whether soldier find himself in desert warfare or deep jungle, neither matters if technology have great impact by increasing distances between oppositions on battlefield, one is very likely to find himself in urgent need of tough, capable blade for many unforseen reasons and such a tool can become quickly only lifeline and saviour of human life in critical moments,or just simply utility tool for task,where folder wouldn't do the job as effectively or at all...However, I think that for most of the ordinary days of soldier, good folder or multitool, will cover pretty much nearly every task without need of fixed, tougher blade.

When it comes to deployments in some specific climate conditions such as mountains with thick vegetation and woods, or tropical jungles - where soldiers are practically living and serving daily in close proximity of many dangerous wild animals night and day plus having to work their way through thick vegetation or build shelters occasionally, or mask the artillery, vehicles etc,setting trapps for enemy / animals when running out of food, good reliable and sharpened blade, (not only machetes) is a must IMO... In these conditions, multitools or folders obviously wouldn't much help as "only edged" tools.

Again, - I wasn't deployed into any warfare, serving only mandatory military service in middle of Europe,so i can not fantacise about topic much, but i can imagine, I d definitely had more than one knife on me,if I would be the only guy from entire battalion, to carry fixed blade, i d be the one!!!,,,, and I would invest into my optional knife best as i could,(not overly) but definitely wouldn't be saving on it. Knife would have to be able to hold much more than my bodyweight in lateral strength, easy to sharp, be an all rounder, not too large but neither too small,able to chopp, hack, slash,stab,batton,with some level of rust resistancy,simply reliable and well functional in most tasks expected from good combat knife.Also would carry back up fixed blade, plus folder for day to day use.

Mankind evolved tens of thousands years along knife - this tool was and still is of great importance for every human being and I think soldier have twice as many reasons to carry it on his route to unknown.

I find it odd that you continue along this line of thinking when many, many Veterans who actually served in multiple wartime arenas are telling you that multitools are the way to go. It just makes it look like you think Military service is what is shown in movies. I mean, the answer to the question you asked is right here in this thread, yet it seems that none of it really stuck.

 

[Quiet]

According to me, you hit each nail right....nothing I could disagree with has been said.

In relation to last blue section i must highlight importance of carrying fixed blade over folder.This is directly my answer why fixed, referring to unforseen,or sudden close quarter bodily attack of insurgency on soldier.This sort of situation simply doesn't allow enough time to - looking for small tool like folder in the pockets or even ruck,pockets are often deep or folder is in its leather /nylon case, first it must be found (in highly stressful rush during deadly attack,which takes place usually within fragments of seconds) , opening folder after and only now (too late) to engage it into counter weapon,,,,with not even sufficient length of blade to reach vital parts of insurgent,along chances of breaking (snapping) folder in half, as all of their constructions have weakness point within pivots,where each folder is prone to break,this to me is vivid scenario, why would I always carry fixed blade - always know exactly it's by my right hand,(never have to look for it,never have to loose a vital second that decide between my life or death by opening it, it can be deployed extremly fast,rapidly ON TIME, and have EFFECTIVE REACH to all vital parts, once imbedded in insurgent's body, not to worry about locking mechanism and own fingers....Fixed blade is the fastest,more effective knife for self-defence or even offensive action

Thanks for patience with my English, hope you can translate at least some of it

Are you speaking from experience with extremely close quarters entanglement with an "insurgent", or is this just how you expect it would go? Because, using your own logic, a sidearm would be just as quick to deploy as a fixed blade, so....why would you use a knife? I'm trying to follow your train of thought and I'm in the weeds here.

 

[Mecha]

Are you speaking from experience with extremely close quarters entanglement with an "insurgent", or is this just how you expect it would go? Because, using your own logic, a sidearm would be just as quick to deploy as a fixed blade, so....why would you use a knife? I'm trying to follow your train of thought and I'm in the weeds here.

He's just really serious about which blade is no.1!

 

[Quiet]

He's just really serious about which blade is no.1!

Apparently. He just seems kind of fixated on the idea that a knife is primarily a weapon (along with a vivid imagination for instances of stabbing bad guys), when a lot of soldiers who've been in actual wartime locations and situations are in here telling him that in real life, it's not like that at all.

I can't speak for others, but when a bunch of people who've actually BTDT are telling me one thing, I'm not going to insist on clinging to the complete opposite. But hey, that's just me.

And for the record, as someone who works with, and is friends with a lot of Veterans and currently serving folks in multiple branches, I can tell you that the universal answer of "a multitool paired with a cheap Gerber or CRKT folder* was what they ran with. Carrying multiple fixed blades with a head full of fantasies of stabbing bad guys...that just comes off as fantasy to me.




*To this day, this makes up most of the selection you find at the PX/BX (I always check when I'm there)

 

[neeman]

In the Israeli Army, combat engineers who specialize in mine clearing are given a fixed blade at the graduation
They wear it on the top front strap of their field harness
It is a symbol of great pride
But it is not for fighting but a glorified spade for digging mines

 

[BladeScout]

Think the Guardian aluminium handle snapped; it was a long time ago. Didn't like the cats tongue handle finish either.
IM a big fan of the Gerber MKII but I guess thats more for nostalgic reasons if nothing else. I certainly dont use those MKIIs, that I have. They are from a bygone era, when Gerber made quality knives and before they sold out and made moronic crap knives like the BG range catering to couch ninjas (rant over)
I did say I like a fixed bade. First boar was with the Chris Reeve Project II counting 4th from the left (now retired and refinished as per the picture):

Ohh, I like fixed blades as well and youve hit a home rund with some of those. Big fan of the Project II. I bought a CR Shadow and always have wanted a Project II but the now disco'ed CR fixed knives are expensive and Ive never managed to put my mitts on one.

Nice to see a Survive GSO. I usually dont run with the pack in regards to which knives, I buy - but having handled the GSO 4.1, I just had to have one and its all their owners rave about. Ive used mine in the woods for camping now for a while and its one of my favorite knives. I keep using the GSO 4.1 hard and it keeps asking for more. With its regular intended use, I seriously doubt, that one can destroy that knife.

Looks like a Finnish field knife in there as well? I like those....and of course I had to have a Cold Steel Tanto as well. Mine is an old 1. gen. Never used it - I just like the look of it.

I now have the Australian made Razerback pig sticking knife (my use is European wild boar that generally already have a hole in them but covered in dogs... for finishing):

That last knife certainly looks like it should do the job - very nice.

None of the hogs, Ive killed had been ventilated prior to me sticking them....but they sure had dogs one them (I couldnt gain on a running hog.....or outrun one, even if I wanted to. 'Them suckers are fast!')

From a previous post on hog stickers:

Im partial to hog huting and not least eating them.

Having hunted boars in Poland, warthogs in Africa and hogs in the US, I must admit, that Im hooked.

Lon Humphrey made this pig sticker for me

It is made for one purpose and one purpose only.
It is the perfect tool and slices through pigs in order to get as clean a kill as possible.
Both edges hair popping sharp.
I could not have asked for a better tool for the job.



***********WARNING GRAPHIC PICS**************************'

Its sharp

 

[BladeScout]

Dont know about today. And how many line units have suppressed handguns lying around?

Those who need a suppressed small arm have them at their disposal.

In fact, suppressors are in widespread (and issued) use today because of some of the warfare, that US troops have been involved in.

A simple google search will reveal all.

As a general rule, grunts tire quickly at having their mates fire rifles/carbines right next to their ears.

Further more, a suppressor can to a degree 'throw' sound waves and thus 'mask' where a soldier firing his weapon are situated.

Suppressors are excellent for use in build-up areas/cities but even where there are no structures, a suppressor can be nice.

I have a degree of tinnitus from shooting guns all my life (and from having an excited buddy fire his 870 right parallel to my ear and without prior warning on a duck hunt years ago) and always swore, that it must never be worse. I always wear muffs and shooting glasses.

Sometimes a situation can arise though, which calls for immediate action. Suffice it to say that in perfectly open desert a situation arose and I had to fire my M4 variation VERY quickly. Firing only a couple of shots were like having a jackhammer right next to my ear - I regretted not having donned ear protection for that one ver since, but there was just no time and nobody expected it in wide open desert. A suppressor does not remove all sound, but I bet the tinnitus would have been on a lower level.

 

[BladeScout]

Or my new favourite:

Ive been eyeing that one. Ive recently dealt with the Finnish company Varusteleka - they have those in stock and are super efficient.

Ive been tempted but Im already covered on the chopper front and really shouldnt....

I miss the days when we had mules to carry the heavy stuff. Now where is my gun bearer?

Mules!? You should travel in style - elephant and Howdah gun! Think of all the blades, you could carry!

 

[BladeScout]

I personally believe that military personnel shall be definitely equipped with fixed blades, regardless of climate.It doesn't matter whether soldier find himself in desert warfare or deep jungle, neither matters if technology have great impact by increasing distances between oppositions on battlefield, one is very likely to find himself in urgent need of tough, capable blade for many unforseen reasons and such a tool can become quickly only lifeline and saviour of human life in critical moments,or just simply utility tool for task,where folder wouldn't do the job as effectively or at all...However, I think that for most of the ordinary days of soldier, good folder or multitool, will cover pretty much nearly every task without need of fixed, tougher blade.

Again, - I wasn't deployed into any warfare, serving only mandatory military service in middle of Europe,so i can not fantacise about topic much, but i can imagine, I d definitely had more than one knife on me,if I would be the only guy from entire battalion, to carry fixed blade, i d be the one!!!,,,,

Mankind evolved tens of thousands years along knife - this tool was and still is of great importance for every human being and I think soldier have twice as many reasons to carry it on his route to unknown.

You persist and you seem to have a very romantic view of soldiering.

Ive read your postings before and even though members in this thread go out of their way to take your questions seriously - many even meticulously answering each and every one of your points, it is as if you dont absorb the words of some who post here (not necessarily mine)

 

[BladeScout]

I dont agree.
With few exceptions, there are very few instances in modern warfare, where a knife is needed for combat.

Okay, combat use in the sense of disabling a foe is a stretch, but stranger things have happened. Combat use of a knife that revolves around the knife as a tool could be a more common occurrence, to include a variety of combat-related tasks such as cutting a soldier out of a damaged vehicle, prying open supplies, and conducting battlefield first aid with supplies that have to be slightly altered to be applied.

There are different scenarios to ponder.

As for Israeli MIL personnel, thats a bad example to choose; most if not all are required to carry a firearm. Even off duty. You'll see the strange sight of an IDF woman soldier on the beach in a bikini and rifle slung.

You got me here, I forgot that the Israelis are not disarmed on their posts/bases like the U.S. Military is in the United States.

Further more, even if an attack appears out of the blue, your training or your knife wont matter an iota. Imagine being in a super market line and the guys behind you decides to stab you. You get no warning.

No/little warning of the Initial Attack. So the bad guy stabs you in the back and does not hit anything vital, now you react with what ever makes the most sense, which could be a knife if your firearm(s) are not reachable. Would you rather struggle for your life with bare hands or a with knife?

A recent scenario in Europe - two German police officers on foot patrol, a loon stabs one of them, lady police officer calmly draws HK and shoots attacker dead. No amount of combat training would have helped the first officer from being stabbed, as the attack happened out of the blue and Im pretty certain, that the lady cop was happy to have a gun.

Knife and/or hand to hand combat training was probably the farthest from her mind.[Quote/]

Probably was, and she was lucky to have a firearm/the ability to access that firearm while the bad guy was in the process of extricating his weapon from the original victim.

I understand that carrying extra weight sucks, but is a 4-5 oz folding knife really going to break the bank when it is one more option among many?

I agree with some of what you said.
Of course there is a place for knives - one cant rule them out, I agree. I still stand by my above posts in regards to useful small folders and multitools over large fixed blades for most soldiers in combat how ever.

In regards to 'our' scenario in the super market - as per your question, I would of course rather have a knife than bare hands fighting. Id rather have a gun over a knife tough.
In a perfect world, it wouldnt happen at all. All in all, Id rather not have to deal with such a situation.
(sadly a few years ago others couls scoff at the debte the two of us have right now - sadly the world have changed for the worse).

That being said; your scenario mentions being already stabbed in a non-vital place....and now we are getting close to PracTac territory
One thing is theory - the other the real world conditions.
Many members here are not allowed the carry of neither guns nor serious blades in public - check out Greenjacktes posts.

Further more, the vast majority of us are not trained nor mentally equipped for being in a knife fight - let alone being stabbed...even if its in a 'non-vital place.'

A knife fighting instructor once mentioned to me, that its not about stabbing somebody to the hilt when dealing with an ordinary knife wielding person. No, its about slicing the opponent a sufficient number of times; very few people of ordinary mindset can help being horrified or at least distracted (long enough), when they look down their chest, arms, thighs and see their clothing and flesh hanging in streams from their body along with copious amounts of their own blood.
I know I for one dont cotton to that,

One thing is talking about it from the safety of a PC - another thing is experiencing combat.

Especially iif it comes out of the blue.

In the above mentioned super market line scenario most people would scream and run away in a panic with arms flailing until running out of steam....or hydralics.

Im not referring to YOU - but most people would, as they are simply not equipped for such a situation. No guns, no knives, no training - it takes quite an effort to fend off a knife wielding loon let alone ignore ones own wounds - superficial or not.

In regards to the German police shooting scenario, that happened for real and went down as told.

The police woman was not lucky to have a gun - German police are issued handguns and most take their training seriously.

As for your comment re a folder - I quite agree, carrying a small folder would not take much and where and when legal, I prefer to have a small folder with me for utility purposes. Ive carried a small folder when legal as long as I can remember ever since getting my first SAK as a kid.