Rambo V

[jimmyd1982]

Here you go, Sly (I know you're following this thread ). It's on eBay and already well used by your fictional father when you find it in his ranch house.

Brown leather!!! Are you trying to get Rambo killed!?

 

[jackknife]

Because to keep from smearing black on you the black surface has to be fully sealed... That, and the dye, increases the effect by filling the pores to a certain depth, creating a hard "outer surface shell" that keeps the leather's general shape, allowing it to dry back to its original shape. (Whereas brown has no pore-filling color or sealing, and is penetrated from both the inside and outside, so it instantly softens and loses its overall shape completely, taking a permanent "misshapen" set when dry: You can always tell a brown sheath that has been really wet). Also the black dye in some cases (like Randall) penetrates the leather completely, which fills the pores all the way through, and reduces water penetration even from the inside.

Not to say that any leather is the best outdoor sheath material, but varnish and dye sealed leather sure beats sponge brown... I can't remember ever seeing brown leather acting like it is fully sealed, because even with a coat of varnish there is no dye inside to fill pores and act as a further impediment when water comes from the inside: The behaviour is truly sponge-like when fully soaked, with no shape holding tendency whatsoever: Barely any better than soaked cardboard...

Brown leather can eventually be protected, but only by putting a mass of covering materials(like wax) inside and outside, leaving huge grubby smears all over your blade, making it useless for food processing. It is the same thing as protecting carbon steel from rusting: Easy to do if you have good conditions, but not so practical with use and walking long distances under rain. Everybody know leather sheaths in Vietnam fell apart, but the same people seem to think North America is always drier (because they stay indoors when the weather turns bad)...

Of course the real counterpoint to brown leather's vulnerability is that if you wet it that bad, then you yourself are so wet that you probably won't survive. That's one way of looking at it...

Gaston

First off, sonny, let me enlighten you on something. I spent a whole year in Vietnam in the army combat engineers. That includes the monsoon season where the daily weather report is rain. Period. Lots of it. I didn't see one sheath or other piece of gear that had a leather sheath or holster that fell apart. The idea seems to be in your brain like a tumor that water is death to leather. Guess what, it dries just fine when it stops raining or it's set up in your hootch over night. That's to include the knife sheaths and holsters for the 1911's that was issued at the time.

And second, guess how the knife sheaths have that dark brown color; their dyed that color! You never saw the raw light tan natural color that leather is on a finished knife sheath or gun holster. It's ALL dyed as a finished product. Or are you saying the black dye used is somehow more water prof than the brown dye used by the same dye company?

I had a Puma Bowie in a brown leather sheath and it survived the tour in Vietnam just fine. You need to check your facts before you blather on in almost comical posts.

Oh, my offer to you still stands on our "Training season," and I'm still willing to pay your airfare to Texas so you can prove to me that a skinny "non metallic" stick is incapable of stopping someone. The gold eagles can still be yours.

 

[Planterz]

If I ever have a leather sheath made, it'll look like Eddie Murphy's suit in "Raw". That should make it impervious to carborane acid.

 

[rover]

I have a knife that my father made on a destroyer minesweeper in the South Pacific during WWII that is carbon steel and has spent 70+ years in a brown leather sheath. Probably oiled twice in the last 30 years and neither blade or sheath is falling apart.

 

[Gaston444]

First off, sonny, let me enlighten you on something. I spent a whole year in Vietnam in the army combat engineers. That includes the monsoon season where the daily weather report is rain. Period. Lots of it. I didn't see one sheath or other piece of gear that had a leather sheath or holster that fell apart. The idea seems to be in your brain like a tumor that water is death to leather. Guess what, it dries just fine when it stops raining or it's set up in your hootch over night. That's to include the knife sheaths and holsters for the 1911's that was issued at the time.

And second, guess how the knife sheaths have that dark brown color; their dyed that color! You never saw the raw light tan natural color that leather is on a finished knife sheath or gun holster. It's ALL dyed as a finished product. Or are you saying the black dye used is somehow more water prof than the brown dye used by the same dye company?

I had a Puma Bowie in a brown leather sheath and it survived the tour in Vietnam just fine. You need to check your facts before you blather on in almost comical posts.

Oh, my offer to you still stands on our "Training season," and I'm still willing to pay your airfare to Texas so you can prove to me that a skinny "non metallic" stick is incapable of stopping someone. The gold eagles can still be yours.

You keep repeating the same misinformation over and over.

I know damn well that the brown leather colour is dyed in. Of course the black dye is different than brown. Ask any leather maker if the varnishing process is the same for both... He will educate you that it isn't, because the black stuff has to be fully sealed to not stain everything that touches it. That is why, if you had any understanding of this, you would notice that most (not all) black leather has a tendency to crack the thicker surface varnish on "working" bending surfaces (the snap straps notably), which is not the case with the less thickly sealed, less dense brown dye.

Those few black dyed snap straps that appear not to crack (so far I noticed this only on Randall sheaths, and a few other very heavily treated items) in fact probably do, but have a leather that is treated deeper so the cracks don't show up, and the surface varnish is more supple as well, with only the barest porous-like "stretching marks" occurring, leaving no visible cracking.

This is actually why most leather makers will recommend to you brown leather, because they feel that with "oil treatment" it will "age" better in appearance, and will be less prone to show "cracking" on the bends, since the protective treatment you do in the sheath's life will be able to "penetrate" the leather, and thus maintain its "suppleness" over time.

Oils do not penetrate a black finish (except in the cracked bending areas), which is why anyone who works in leather will tell you a black finish does not allow leather to "breathe": Anything you put on the top side of black leather stays on top, and has no conditioning effect at all, because none of it penetrates.

Sorry to any leatherworker that I have to belabor this painfully obvious point...

I think the advice that brown knife sheaths will age better than black, because of the option of re-conditioning, is well-meaning and correct for most leather uses, but ultimately counter-productive for knife sheaths that are basically a simple rigid item with only a tiny snap that flexes. I don't care if the snap is cracked in appearance, but I do care if the overall sheath loses any of its shape, and one good dunking can have that effect on brown leather (and immediately so if any pressure is applied while wet).

That is why leather sheaths are now forbidden for any fixed blade knife used in the US military...: They lost their shape, softened, and people injured themselves. The military bureaucracy being what it is, they didn't go into the details of how leather could be finished to make this less severe... Your beloved brown leather turned out to be a nuisance and a safety issue on exactly the use you claimed it passed, and the very institution you draw your authority argument from has banned it for fixed blade knives.

Gaston

 

[brandonc]

This is hilarious considering our community of true pro leatherworkers.

 

[jimmyd1982]

You keep repeating the same misinformation over and over.

Oh the irony

That is why leather sheaths are now forbidden for any fixed blade knife used in the US military...: They lost their shape, softened, and people injured themselves. The military bureaucracy being what it is, they didn't go into the details of how leather could be finished to make this less severe... Your beloved brown leather turned out to be a nuisance and a safety issue on exactly the use you claimed it passed, and the very institution you draw your authority argument from has banned it for fixed blade knives.

Gaston

Such a bold statement should be easy enough to back up. Please link the rule against using brown leather in the military.

 

[Pilsner]

Oh the irony


Such a bold statement should be easy enough to back up. Please link the rule against using brown leather in the military.

It’s in the same rule book that bans carbon steel knives from commercial kitchens...

The same made-up rule book.

Here’s a funny thing. I recently bought a Condor Kephart that came with a good quality brown leather sheath. The problem was, and this is apparently common to all Condor Kepharts, the sheath was not properly moulded to the knife and it had basically zero retention.

No problem, says I, I’ll wet mould it myself. That is where the fun began. I ended up immersing that brown leather sheath in water for over an hour before it became even remotely pliable. And even then I had to repeat the process twice more, and the leather never became really floppy. I think Gaston has owned one or more poor quality brown sheaths, and this has formed the basis of his ludicrous theory. As usual he provides no evidence whatsoever, which is hardly surprising as there isn’t any.

 

[jackknife]

It’s in the same rule book that bans carbon steel knives from commercial kitchens...

The same made-up rule book.

Oh no, it's not a made up rule book, it must be real for gaston to quote so well. Perhaps we need to google The Rules Of The World According To Gaston" to find this precious information. A copy of it must be found so we can all be set strait on this mis information we keep spreading.

After all, we must be in error if we don't agree with these gems of knowledge coming from someone who states that they had use for a knife only five times in the outdoors in their life and uses x-acto blade around the house for his cutting.

Oh and Gaston, I suppose all those guides on the trip my wife and I took in Costa Rica were all mis informed. We spent a week in the rain forest on an eco tour nature watching and hiking every day along the trails to the new campsite for that night, and camping out each night. All the guides has those poor miserable carbon steel 10 and 12 inch small machete's in brown leather sheaths, and it rained like heck every single day between 11am and 2 pm. Panchos were carried and used every single day of the trip. Those small machetes got used everyday, several times a day for all manor of things from setting up camp to slicing and serving up the pork from the pig roast on the last night in the jungle. All meals were cooked over the open campfire, so kindling was chopped every afternoon. Poor poor Enriche , Mario, Ricardo, and Carlos. They need to read the "World According To Gaston" so they can enlightened. Poor guys probably need to buy new machetes every week!

Maybe the poor eco trip companies that do these guided trips don't have access to black leather dyes. Maybe Costa Rica is soooo backwards that they are all un-enlightened.

P.S.- Dear Gaston, if brown leather is soooo bad that the U.S. military has 'banned' leather sheaths, why oh why do they still issue brown leather boots for all the peresonel to wear instead of some more modern nylon trail shoes type of footgear? Please, inquiring minds want to know??????

 

[TAH]

Ask Chris Reeve and G Feller Casemakers about brown leather sheaths...

"High quality leather sheath treated to be water resistant."

 

[Wilsonhome]

You keep repeating the same misinformation over and over.

I know damn well that the brown leather colour is dyed in. Of course the black dye is different than brown. Ask any leather maker if the varnishing process is the same for both... He will educate you that it isn't, because the black stuff has to be fully sealed to not stain everything that touches it. That is why, if you had any understanding of this, you would notice that most (not all) black leather has a tendency to crack the thicker surface varnish on "working" bending surfaces (the snap straps notably), which is not the case with the less thickly sealed, less dense brown dye.

Those few black dyed snap straps that appear not to crack (so far I noticed this only on Randall sheaths, and a few other very heavily treated items) in fact probably do, but have a leather that is treated deeper so the cracks don't show up, and the surface varnish is more supple as well, with only the barest porous-like "stretching marks" occurring, leaving no visible cracking.

This is actually why most leather makers will recommend to you brown leather, because they feel that with "oil treatment" it will "age" better in appearance, and will be less prone to show "cracking" on the bends, since the protective treatment you do in the sheath's life will be able to "penetrate" the leather, and thus maintain its "suppleness" over time.

Oils do not penetrate a black finish (except in the cracked bending areas), which is why anyone who works in leather will tell you a black finish does not allow leather to "breathe": Anything you put on the top side of black leather stays on top, and has no conditioning effect at all, because none of it penetrates.

Sorry to any leatherworker that I have to belabor this painfully obvious point...

I think the advice that brown knife sheaths will age better than black, because of the option of re-conditioning, is well-meaning and correct for most leather uses, but ultimately counter-productive for knife sheaths that are basically a simple rigid item with only a tiny snap that flexes. I don't care if the snap is cracked in appearance, but I do care if the overall sheath loses any of its shape, and one good dunking can have that effect on brown leather (and immediately so if any pressure is applied while wet).

That is why leather sheaths are now forbidden for any fixed blade knife used in the US military...: They lost their shape, softened, and people injured themselves. The military bureaucracy being what it is, they didn't go into the details of how leather could be finished to make this less severe... Your beloved brown leather turned out to be a nuisance and a safety issue on exactly the use you claimed it passed, and the very institution you draw your authority argument from has banned it for fixed blade knives.

Gaston

Boy, i hate to jump in this but there is just a logical break that bugs me too much (i can hear everyone's thoughts - Just the one? So maybe i should say there was one that pushed me over the tipping point).

You are claiming jackknife made an "appeal to authority" argument when he actually made an "extensive personal experience" argument, so your supposed negation of his argument hits thin air.

Also, I would love to know when leather was banned by the US military. Are we talking all US forces? Are we talking a real ban or does the military just not issue leather?

Beyond that, and to stay on track, i assume you are saying Rambo should not use a leather sheath when he goes to Mexico?

 

[Man with no name]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huarache_(shoe)
Since Rambo will be adventuring south of the border he should adopt the native footwear, a locally hand made pair of Huraches brown leather sandals. These popular time tested sandals, made from braided strips of local leather by local craftsmen and women, will help Rambo to blend in with the locals. He might even go so far as to have a knife sheath made of the very same brown leather used to make the ever popular Huraches sandals, helping him to stay below the radar of those pesky drug cartels.

 

[lieferung]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huarache_(shoe)
Since Rambo will be adventuring south of the border he should adopt the native footwear, a locally hand made pair of Huraches brown leather sandals. These popular time tested sandals, made from braided strips of local leather by local craftsmen and women, will help Rambo to blend in with the locals. He might even go so far as to have a knife sheath made of the very same brown leather used to make the ever popular Huraches sandals, helping him to stay below the radar of those pesky drug cartels.

Good idea, but the producers and execs are gonna want this flick to have a broad appeal to the younger generation. Therefore he will probably be required to wear THESE huaraches, with wide shots to show them off!

 

[JD Mandrell]

Isn't the current USMC Ontario 498 Combat/Utility knife issued with a leather sheath?

 

[dano]

I have black leather boots that absorb oil...

 

[John A. Larsen]

The ban on leather sheaths was for parachute jumps, brought about IMO by poorly made leather sheaths, such as the one on the Ka-Bar. Thin leather, poorly placed retention strap, that allowed the knife to ride up, the thin leather tip to bend over, and when the knife came back down, it would be pushed thru the bent leather, sometimes into the jumpers leg. I had a lot of jumps with either. a Ben Hibben knife or a Randall 14, with no problems, then again they had well made sheaths, but a knee jerk reaction by people in charge just banned all leather sheaths. John
PS I got the Ben Hibben sheath in early 1966, and all I have ever used on it is brown shoe polish and it is still good to go.

 

[JParanee]

From what I understand Stallone likes knives

With so many great knives out there I’d love to see him use something other than a Hibben design meant to be mass produced by United Cutlery but we all know that that ain’t gonna happen

Something from the bench of Rick Marchand





Or Foster



Or something fro Jason Kinght



Or something from Sam Lurquin

 

[berzerker]

Too late for Grampo, it’s been done already...; “Cohen the Barbarian.”

https://i.redd.it/1797ae42ab901.jpg

[Tip of the hat to Paul Kidby, and great respect to late Terry Pratchett (RIP).]

 

[Pàdruig]

You keep repeating the same misinformation over and over.

I know damn well that the brown leather colour is dyed in. Of course the black dye is different than brown. Ask any leather maker if the varnishing process is the same for both... He will educate you that it isn't, because the black stuff has to be fully sealed to not stain everything that touches it. That is why, if you had any understanding of this, you would notice that most (not all) black leather has a tendency to crack the thicker surface varnish on "working" bending surfaces (the snap straps notably), which is not the case with the less thickly sealed, less dense brown dye.

Those few black dyed snap straps that appear not to crack (so far I noticed this only on Randall sheaths, and a few other very heavily treated items) in fact probably do, but have a leather that is treated deeper so the cracks don't show up, and the surface varnish is more supple as well, with only the barest porous-like "stretching marks" occurring, leaving no visible cracking.

This is actually why most leather makers will recommend to you brown leather, because they feel that with "oil treatment" it will "age" better in appearance, and will be less prone to show "cracking" on the bends, since the protective treatment you do in the sheath's life will be able to "penetrate" the leather, and thus maintain its "suppleness" over time.

Oils do not penetrate a black finish (except in the cracked bending areas), which is why anyone who works in leather will tell you a black finish does not allow leather to "breathe": Anything you put on the top side of black leather stays on top, and has no conditioning effect at all, because none of it penetrates.

Sorry to any leatherworker that I have to belabor this painfully obvious point...

I think the advice that brown knife sheaths will age better than black, because of the option of re-conditioning, is well-meaning and correct for most leather uses, but ultimately counter-productive for knife sheaths that are basically a simple rigid item with only a tiny snap that flexes. I don't care if the snap is cracked in appearance, but I do care if the overall sheath loses any of its shape, and one good dunking can have that effect on brown leather (and immediately so if any pressure is applied while wet).

That is why leather sheaths are now forbidden for any fixed blade knife used in the US military...: They lost their shape, softened, and people injured themselves. The military bureaucracy being what it is, they didn't go into the details of how leather could be finished to make this less severe... Your beloved brown leather turned out to be a nuisance and a safety issue on exactly the use you claimed it passed, and the very institution you draw your authority argument from has banned it for fixed blade knives.

Gaston

This is both amusing and appalling at the same time.

You craft your reasoning with conviction and care, yet you simply could not be further from the truth. It is my hope that other readers are able to decipher the sheer nonsense you've somehow managed to infuse this thread with, I am literally shaking my head from amusement and astonishment.

Though I am a leather worker, it doesn't take one to understand the misconceptions you've somehow managed to create in your post. I could point out the myriad of flaws you've laid down as gospel, but somehow I do not think you are willing to listen...

Dyes vary as there are different types, different bases, different functions, and different chemical and/or natural make-ups. To make the blanket statement that black is better than brown is simply nonsense and should not be considered as anything but whimsical silliness.

All you have managed to do in your statements regarding leather is demonstrate your fundamental lack of understanding in regards to how leather is worked with in all its stages of crafting.


Regardless, the whole leather conversation is a bit off topic for the thread and I apologize for contributing to any derailment, but I was hard pressed not to respond to such inane commentary.

Rambo knives are all about being big, outlandish, and making a statement. I was a kid when the first few Rambo movies were making a splash and they made all sorts of toys, including this set (not my picture). I had something similar and I LOVED the knife.

I feel like a lot of great suggestions have been made. Ultimately, I'd love the knife to simply make an awesome statement, no matter how ridiculous.

It needs to be as bombastic as I expect the movie to be.

 

[knarfeng]

10 point infraction for trolling to Mr. Gaston.