Re-examining the steel snobs.

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I should point out my post was sort of tongue in cheek :)

Time is the hardest thing for me to come by, so I don't want to waste any by using steel that I don't KNOW can do what I want it to.

Greg, I REALLY DO understand where you're coming from. I had a truck in high school, but it's because I started bucking hay bales, mowing lawns, and shoveling the $hit out of barns at about 13 in order to have the money. :)

It's not about where you start, it's about where you go once you've started. :)

Fitz, my friend, that would have been taken from Jay Fisher's web-site. If you have not been exposed to that delight, I must urge you to check it out!!!! ;)
 
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NickWheeler said:
...Fitz, my friend, that would have been taken from Jay Fisher's web-site. If you have not been exposed to that delight, I must urge you to check it out!!!! ;)
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Nick, I have been there in the past, thank you. :) I found that my not inconsiderable ego couldn't find motivation to desire to work its way past the rather huge ego blocking the doorway.:o There's actually a lot of good info there, but the shadow of that hulk is too distracting for me, at least.
 
Come on now Fitz, I'm sure you could be voted the Best Living Knifemaker by the Waukegan Post. And maybe I could be by the Lewis County News!!! ;)

It is interesting to use that quote when there is LITERALLY thousands of words on that page written by Mr. Fisher about the steels he uses, why, and then his thoughts on the importance of heat treating them.

And for the record, I'm very much in agreement with Fitz on the post (#84) above! :) (
 
I know for a fact that Nick has read that site cover-to-cover, that's why he hasn't gotten any knives done lately!!! :D ;)
 
"It's not about where you start, it's about where you go once you've started. :)"

Nick that is it... bingo.. ! thank you bros

doing hay... now that is something i remember very well... as thats all we had out in the valley.
 
fitzo said:
Nick, I have been there in the past, thank you. :) I found that my not inconsiderable ego couldn't find motivation to desire to work its way past the rather huge ego blocking the doorway.:o There's actually a lot of good info there, but the shadow of that hulk is too distracting for me, at least.
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Mike, you silver tongued devil, ever the diplomat! It must be the Irish in you...

...HeHeHe (to quote IG)
 
Aaron, I'm signed up for a speed reading class. If I learn anything, I should be able to read that site "cover to cover" in about 37 days. ;) :D

ps- Sorry for the thread drift Kevin, but it was a necessary evil ;) :)
 
DustinHall said:
Wow, I didn't realize my bed frame post would stir up this big of a discussion...
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Dustin, I am glad you chimed in since while I have had my fun with that topic I wanted to be clear that I am was not being critical of you. You are right to ask any question you want answers for and the only way one may learn about the merits of a given steel source is to ask. My problem wasn't that you started the thread, my shock and amazement is that the thread then continued for 4 pages!:confused: I feel the answers you deserved certainly could have been covered in less than a page, and the fact that it went any longer than that displays one of my biggest concerns with the topic of scrap, which is- where does it end? Where do we draw the line? I hate "slippery slope" arguments but this may be a legitimate one.
 
I guess I just like to think of it as working your way up. Once you are able to get nice lines, fittings, etc. then it would be best to work with the best knife making steel you can get IMO. Some may say it's a waste of time salvaging a bed frame or a leaf spring to make a knife while I say it might be a waste of time (and money) to learn on a 15 dollar bar of O1 or whatever. Then again, maybe not. It's all subjective and I believe the only relative factor is that the maker is having fun doing it (at least when one is starting out). Sure the goal is to make the best knife that you can but, a good, "accepted" piece of knife making steel with sh*ty geometry will obviously not be any better than a well made blade from "junk steel".

"It's not about where you start, it's about where you go once you've started." I like that Nick. Right on.

I was a bit surprised myself, Kevin. Good to know you were not being critical.

I just want to say that I enjoy this forum and am grateful for the knowledge you guys share. I don't want to sound like I'm disregarding anything anyone says with helpful intentions. This site is great. Thanks everyone. :)
 
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Let me give some support to some other guys here that are getting trampled in the fray. I like newbies, they really are the lifeblood of these forums, and while some are eager for new information, others are quite experienced yet just posting for the first time. Quite often they just have not familiarized themselves with the current topics or the ever problematic “search” function. Newbies only seeking validation wear me ragged, but newbies sincerely seeking answers are my favorite people and what keep me returning to the forums. It just seems we are in one of those cycles where we will be faced with numerous repetitive threads a week and that is one of the reasons for this discussion, so we shouldn’t be too hard on fresh blood that will bring some new topics to an old group.
 
Unfortunately my original point in this thread has been proven correct all too well with where some have taken it. I used the term “steel snobs” to add some levity to an already touchy topic, but apparently some took it all too seriously. The people I wanted to recognize in this thread are not name callers, they are not defensive, nor derogatory, they take a lot of heat for simply wanting to help guys do better. Yet these efforts are seen as peeing on newbs or betrayers of some imagined grand tradition. Where the *&% does all this hostility come from with this? This thread really was never about the merits of scrap vs. fresh stock, it was supposed to explain the good intentions of those who get this kind of treatment when they give their advice.

galadduin said:
Mr Kevin, I think if we loose you we will loose a good part of that forum as well. ...
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Forget about me for a bit, while I post a page that I wrote and asked Mark if I could post a few weeks back, and then decided not to get so serious but it seems to fit here:

I have been doing this internet forum thing for many years now, and I have noticed a few constants in the nature of the beast, one is that there is a continuous ebb and flow, a cyclic nature to the boards. They all seem to peak and burn brightest for a time and then fade, sometimes they dim slightly before rebounding to another intense period, and sometimes they just fade into an empty room in a forgotten corner of the net. This seems to be the way it works. Many are like a busy tavern that turn over crowds with entirely fresh faces on regular basis, with a few habitual drinkers who have the same seats at the bar ten years later. It is a good format for a purely social forum, but for an informational forum the best I have seen more resembles a small town school, where the next generation of students bring new faces to benefit from interaction with familiar veterans who have been around long enough to act as teachers, or at least helpful guides. In a high school there are always students who feel they are clever with their antics but oblivious to the fact that that guy at the chalkboard was there when their parent thought the same shtick was original. But while that guy may not laugh at the wisecrack he has heard 1,000 times before, he is also more than happy to answer the same questions for 1,000 times more for those who have yet to hear the answers.

In this field, this particular forum in the past has been perhaps one of the best I have visited. Many suggestions may not be the ones people would like to hear, they may not validate what they have heard elsewhere, but here like no other site on the net I have seen people willing to listen to facts, logic and reason while reconsidering popular ideas before giving things a try.

About a year ago I posted that I noticed an influx of new faces with old questions, while curious about the trend I was optimistic for the future, and hoped we would have the enthusiasm to keep helping out with those familiar problems. But something is a little different since then, the frequency with which those efforts are treated with disrespect is not my imagination, it is increasing. I have become very selective in which threads I will post because I do not need the emotional turmoil that participating can bring; when you feel yourself stressing before hitting the “reply” button what is the point anymore? I don’t stop in here for conflict, there is a little redneck tavern just up the road if I want to fight in my leisure hours.

As I have previously mentioned there are two types of queries, those legitimately seeking answers, and those seeking validation. The age old and logical response to this is “Why did you ask if you already had your answer?”, the answer is in alleviating self doubt through validation, but those who practice it doom themselves to achieving very little in increasing knowledge or experience.

Mete, Fitzo, Stacy, Dan, I.G., Bruce, Nick, Steve, Lloyd, Russ and few others I am overlooking (sorry) are among a group of generous folks who have been patiently answering questions for more than five years now. Many others are not listed because they either tired with the struggle or found better outlets for their energy. In repayment for caring enough to help they have often been ridiculed, insulted or disrespected by the folks who came to them for answers. When people get their hands slapped away repeatedly for offering it yet they still do not hesitate to extend it, it speaks volumes about their nature and it deserves our gratitude and respect.

I have seen mete, a man who already has made one career studying steel, dismissed out of hand and insulted, mete says he likes slaying myths but one can only take so many wounds while battling the beast. I have seen Fitzo show superhuman patience after having to take break for his own peace of mind only to return to the fray, much to my relief. I have seen Stacy have to break down his previous posts word by word to keep people from jumping down his throat while jamming words there that never were. This is not the same atmosphere I enjoyed here a year ago. What happened?

As I said, I have seen plenty of forums and this is one that would be sorely missed if the veteran posters called it quits. I can’t speak for them but I think they would be happy to keep answering questions and giving input if others would consider that they may have answered the question correctly before, (and probably even actually done it themselves a few times), that they may have also read the knife magazines and probably even some real sources of serious information as well. We should ask ourselves if we are posting a question because we really want answers or just validation. And please consider that if somebody is too quick or forceful in giving solid opposing facts on a topic it may be because we are still putting out spot fires from the last all out flame war that topic triggered, and we may be a wee bit jumpy regarding it.

This has been on my mind for while now and I would like to say that I like some of the new faces more than some of the old ones, but there are some new tones that aren’t so productive.

Now having said all that:

NickWheeler said:
...ps- Sorry for the thread drift Kevin, but it was a necessary evil ;) :)
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Your drift is fine Nick, your attempts at levity brought more tension relief that any of mine. :thumbup:

I guess I am just a sour puss these days, but one good thing to come from this thread is that I have gotten more e-mail today that was not spam than I have in along time due to this discussion:).
 
Kevin, a few years ago umpiring forums sprang up across the internet and joy was had by all.... then the cycle of "how many strikes in an out" "please explain the infield fly rule" sometimes several times a page started to wear several people out. Gentlemen that are THE "authoritative source" for rules interpretations and umpiring mechanics were ridiculed and marginalized. These people are the official rules interpretors for MLB, NCAA and other groups but are being mocked by someone that doesn't know how to wear a jock. About 3 years ago most of us left the forums to the trolls and self proclaimed experts and formed our invitation only listservers. I visit the forums for laughs and to shake my head at the misinformation being passed around by the "best umpire in kokomo".

Keep tilting at the windmills, we'll all be here for ya.
 
Kevin- Thank you for sharing that! I agree with what you have written. I must admit that I'm probably guilty of reacting poorly every now and again to some posts. :o

I SINCERELY hope that you do not fade away from here. I think those of us that have been hanging around here for awhile fully realize what an amazing wealth of information you are. I'm constantly finding myself wishing I had you by my side in my new classes (and my shop!!! :D) when an instructor says something that I completely disagree with, yet don't know how to articulate an argument. I know if you were there you'd be able to set them straight!!!

An example was in my manufacturing processes class. The instructor said an advantage of hot forming is that there is no change whatsoever in the structure of the material after it's formed. Well, I actually had a decent argument for that one, but I know you could have really hit home with it.

Anyway... if you find a man that can make everything from this:

396770937_72db9f8ab8.jpg


.....to this:

cashenviking.jpg


.....to this:



K04158-Cashen-Kevin-final.jpg


AND be able to tell you exactly what's going on inside of all that steel.... EXACTLY... AND, he's WILLING TO SHARE THAT KNOWLEDGE... Well, you better be greatful and cherish what that man has to offer.

I don't post very often in your threads as I feel it would be much akin to a high school sophomore trying to add onto a professor's dissertation... but please trust that I read them all and glean as much as I can retain from them.


I also know that this post I've just made is not what you were looking for, but it's what I wanted to say. :)

I know I am certainly not the only one around here that feels this way!!!
 
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Kevin R. Cashen said:
I used the term “steel snobs” to add some levity to an already touchy topic, but apparently some took it all too seriously.
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Without trying to 'add to the dissertation' I will say that most if not all participating in this particular forum are do-it-yourselfers. Some are professionals others are neophytes with a whole spectrum of experience and knowledge in between. While some can be told that this way or that way is the best, others just have to take the DIY to the extreme and find out for themselves.

Considering that a young blacksmith named Hoyt Buck, the founder of Buck Knives started making knives from old worn out files and several other seasoned veterans currently demonstrate on web pages, books or videos 'knife making' from scrap steels. For that reason, I think the 'problem' of newbs asking about using scrap steel isn't one that will go away. Perhaps a sticky titled "saw blades, leaf springs and scrap steel" with a conglomeration of links to all the scrap steel threads would help??

As for the disrespecting the elders, I don't know if I'm guilty of it or not. I generally try to mirror the mood that I feel from the persons response in a thread and as we all know that can be hard to determine from reading text. I suppose my attempts at levity could be misinterpreted and sometimes I have difficulty keeping my super sunny disposition in check so if I have diss'd anybody I apologize.

I could say more on this topic that you touched on about nowadays how the disrespect seems to be increasing these days but what I would have to say would definitely take the thread too far OT.
 
it would be a good idea to have a "beginner maker forum"... where some can find intro answers...

oddly... its almost like sending your kindergarten kids to highschool and mixing them in with grade 10's.. and expecting the young ones to mesh in...:o

clearly... a beginner is just that...
 
There is a newbies link that tends to get bypassed by many first time knife makers before they post a question. I think a lot of the questions asked can be answered after a few minutes perusing the links in that list. I'm still a newbie and will probably be one for many years, thus I frequent that link often.

Perhaps the name "newbie" deters some people, because they might think it pertains to people who are new to internet forums in general. Maybe the newbies info thread should be renamed to: KNIFE MAKING TUTORIALS AND INFO - PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE POSTING QUESTIONS IN SHOP TALK

This link is in the Newbies thread: http://ajh-knives.com/metals.html#metal0

However, it should also be renamed to something like: Steel Spec's, with heat treatment procedures for common knife making steels.
 
the problem with a "newbie-maker" forum would be the the old timers would avoid it. :D

Furthering your analogy....it would be like sending kindergarteners to elementary school with no teachers. :p

Dan
 
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