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Re-examining the steel snobs.
- Thread starter Kevin R. Cashen
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Tai Goo
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The first blades I ever forged were from "precision ground 01". 
The results I got from heat treating them in the forge really werent very good. So, just because it was known store bought steel with a label on it, which I paid a premium for, didnt make it right. I didnt know any better. A long time professional knife maker had told me I ought to try 01, so I went to the local steel supplier and asked for 01, and thats what they handed me
The results I got from heat treating them in the forge really werent very good. So, just because it was known store bought steel with a label on it, which I paid a premium for, didnt make it right. I didnt know any better. A long time professional knife maker had told me I ought to try 01, so I went to the local steel supplier and asked for 01, and thats what they handed me
I have enjoyed reading this thread and thought I would add my two cents worth. As a maker that had been a collector for years and decided to start making knives full time one day, I thought that using a known steel was the way to go. It likely would have been if I had chosen something besides 1095 that came at a spring temper. While it was not expensive, it was hard to grind. It was supposed to be annealed. What should have been a known steel turned out be an unknown and much more difficult to learn on. So I would have to agree with Tai that sometimes the known you buy is not what you get. We learned a lot by using that steel, but it could have been easier.
When I talk to people that are wanting to learn how to make knives the first thing I ask is if what they want is a knife or do they want to learn how to make them. When it comes time for them to put the steel to the grinder for the first time, I recommend using mild steel that they won't want to make a knife out of. That way they can concentrate on learning the correct way to grind without worrying about ruining a blade. They will get a good blade faster and understand more about the control they have over the grinder. Learning to forge is the same way. It is much easier to learn with a steel that moves easier under the hammer than some steel that fights you at every blow of the hammer. The main question remains the same, Do you want a knife or do you want to learn how to make them.
I know a guy that works for a company that makes a few million mower blades a year. I asked him about the lawnmower blade steel that they use because I have seen many people ask if it would make a good knife. He is a knowledgeable user of custom knives and his advice was to avoid using it. He said that their requirements for steel (I think he used that term loosely) did not match the knife makers requirements at all. His major concern was that their blades did not break. Edge holding was not on the list. Spin it fast enough and it will cut grass, but for a knife steel, look somewhere else. One of the requirements I thought would be important in a mower blade, as well as a knife, was not even on their list.
When you take an object that was made for one purpose and try to guess the steel that was used, you really have little idea of the focus of the company that made the original object and how it fits with the steel you think they used.
When I talk to people that are wanting to learn how to make knives the first thing I ask is if what they want is a knife or do they want to learn how to make them. When it comes time for them to put the steel to the grinder for the first time, I recommend using mild steel that they won't want to make a knife out of. That way they can concentrate on learning the correct way to grind without worrying about ruining a blade. They will get a good blade faster and understand more about the control they have over the grinder. Learning to forge is the same way. It is much easier to learn with a steel that moves easier under the hammer than some steel that fights you at every blow of the hammer. The main question remains the same, Do you want a knife or do you want to learn how to make them.
I know a guy that works for a company that makes a few million mower blades a year. I asked him about the lawnmower blade steel that they use because I have seen many people ask if it would make a good knife. He is a knowledgeable user of custom knives and his advice was to avoid using it. He said that their requirements for steel (I think he used that term loosely) did not match the knife makers requirements at all. His major concern was that their blades did not break. Edge holding was not on the list. Spin it fast enough and it will cut grass, but for a knife steel, look somewhere else. One of the requirements I thought would be important in a mower blade, as well as a knife, was not even on their list.
When you take an object that was made for one purpose and try to guess the steel that was used, you really have little idea of the focus of the company that made the original object and how it fits with the steel you think they used.
Tai Goo
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The knife maker who gave me that advice from my last post was a stock reductionist with a controlled electric heat treating furnace. He really didn't know anything about forging or heat treating in a forge, and probably just heard that 01 was decent to forge and that it was a forgiving steel. he mostly used stuff like 440C and other similar stain resistant steels.
Such was most of the advice I got from the experts. Rather than really trying to put themselves in my shoes, listen to me and help me, they tried to give me advice more from their own perspectives or preferences, and also tried to impose their ways on me.
Such was most of the advice I got from the experts. Rather than really trying to put themselves in my shoes, listen to me and help me, they tried to give me advice more from their own perspectives or preferences, and also tried to impose their ways on me.
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Hi
thats what i was trying to get at...
its entry level stuff to cut your teeth on...
i remember when i started forging in college (before university ) and i had to save a month to buy a 25 dollar bag of coal.... at the beginning i just couldn't throw any bucks at it to save my life... so.. i confess that i'd ask the mechanic's at a local diesel shop if i could dive in their dumpster and look for scrap... no problem.. so i did get some crappy springs and u bolts, axls, bearing races... and old motor oil..... made my own tools from that and heat treated things best i could...
a year or two later ... i did get some bought steel but still... .. no gas forge and no pyrometer... .. but i worked at it and the more exposure to the forging culture i recieved, the more i knew that i had to improve... !
there is alot written on the top makers... and that helps alot... so the young fellas can inquire and strive to be better .... almost like imitating in their own way.....
now a days... i buy all my steel ( W1,O1,L6,5160,A2) , except the crucible steel that i make (thats another story).... have pyrometer control heat treat oven... .. and recently bought a bader variable speed ( my dream come true)
powerhammer, anvils, etc
i've learned that i absolutely love my pyrometers and known steel to work with... it is the way to be.. !:thumbup:
maybe i'm just abit jaded... like growing up dirt poor, and having a rich kid neighbour... .. the rich kid gets the car in highschool, and your lucky enough just to have 2 pairs of jeans in your empty dresser..
kinda like starting out with a electric heat treat oven, known steel and asm manual vs a coal forge, rail spikes, and dirty motor oil
I think it works out in the end... just theres many ways to do it...
just need patience !
thats what i was trying to get at...
its entry level stuff to cut your teeth on...
i remember when i started forging in college (before university ) and i had to save a month to buy a 25 dollar bag of coal.... at the beginning i just couldn't throw any bucks at it to save my life... so.. i confess that i'd ask the mechanic's at a local diesel shop if i could dive in their dumpster and look for scrap... no problem.. so i did get some crappy springs and u bolts, axls, bearing races... and old motor oil..... made my own tools from that and heat treated things best i could...
a year or two later ... i did get some bought steel but still... .. no gas forge and no pyrometer... .. but i worked at it and the more exposure to the forging culture i recieved, the more i knew that i had to improve... !
there is alot written on the top makers... and that helps alot... so the young fellas can inquire and strive to be better .... almost like imitating in their own way.....
now a days... i buy all my steel ( W1,O1,L6,5160,A2) , except the crucible steel that i make (thats another story).... have pyrometer control heat treat oven... .. and recently bought a bader variable speed ( my dream come true)
powerhammer, anvils, etc
i've learned that i absolutely love my pyrometers and known steel to work with... it is the way to be.. !:thumbup:
maybe i'm just abit jaded... like growing up dirt poor, and having a rich kid neighbour... .. the rich kid gets the car in highschool, and your lucky enough just to have 2 pairs of jeans in your empty dresser..
kinda like starting out with a electric heat treat oven, known steel and asm manual vs a coal forge, rail spikes, and dirty motor oil
I think it works out in the end... just theres many ways to do it...
just need patience !
Tai Goo
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Another obvious lesson we can learn from my experience as a beginner is, if you want to learn how to forge,... don't ask a stock reductionist!
If you want to learn how to use and get the most out of recycled or salvaged steel, don't ask a smith who doesn't like the idea, has a completely different shop set up than you and who doesn't have much experience with it.
Find a teacher that already has some common ground, and who is best qualified to help you do what you want to do...
If you want to learn how to use and get the most out of recycled or salvaged steel, don't ask a smith who doesn't like the idea, has a completely different shop set up than you and who doesn't have much experience with it.
Find a teacher that already has some common ground, and who is best qualified to help you do what you want to do...
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I don't know Karl, when you take typing the same answers ad nauseum only to see the same questions based upon prevailing gibberish and myth crop up immediately as if you never spoke and combine it with frequent hostility for your efforts, you start to take a hard look at your priorities in life. Certain things are worth including in your life and others... well. That is why I started this thread, I see several good guys here still patiently giving those answers and taking the heat for it and I thought they deserved some recognition and a thank you.
So much of this seems to still comes down to doing the courtesy of first asking yourself if you are posting a question because you really want answers or if you simply want validation for answers you already have made your mind up about. Example: I post the question Are lawnmower blades good steel for knives? I get various answers from folks who have some old steel themselves but then a maker with experience answers Not really, you would be better off with some 1080 from Admiral, their web address is Now how I post next will require some honest examination of my motives. I could recognize that amidst some posts basically telling me what I already said, one guy gave me some sincere input based upon his experience and then took the time to not only offer an alternative but to point me to exactly where I can get it. Or I could immediately start listing reasons why I will not accept his advice, I have 23 blades, I cant afford new steel, I just want to practice, I am just a hobbyist, or I may even become resentful of advice that did not reinforce what I had already set my mind on and let that pompous ass have it for imposing his views on my question. The later is far too common when dealing with many topics and asking a question that you will only accept one answer to lacks too much honesty to be fair to yourself or the folks you are calling upon.
If you have a whole pile of lawnmower blades that you have set your heart on using, then use them! Play around, enjoy and work out the trial an error necessary to get what you want and enjoy your learning curve without the pretense of asking of you should only to ignore any answer short of Yes! Lawnmower blades are the best!
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This topic parallels the quenchant debate, but seems to be much more civil. I started with some scrap steel and campfire that a friend fanned with a snow shovel, a claw hammer and a rock (a nice flat piece of basalt I think). There are about ten thousand things I messed with in my learning process that I wouldnt wish on anybody else and that is why I bother with these forums, it feels good to save others the same grief. I am not a better knifemaker because I fumbled around with ever changing parameters failing to nail down cause and effect or a standard procedure for years. I am a better knifemaker because I got tired of it and moved on to predictable controls where I could build upon my previous lessons with the knowledge that a set back or success was due to my methods not what chunk of scrap a grabbed from the pile that day. If I needed hammer practice a chunk of mild steel was fine, if I needed to know how to best treat the steel I first needed to know what steel I was treating. This is what I would like to share with new guys, not all the mistakes I made.
Based on my experience if I could advise a new guy on two material purchases it would be to get a good steel with a known chemistry and heat history and a good quenching oil to harden it in. These two items improved my life as a knifemaker more than any other thing short of the knowledge in how to use them. I remember losing knives to warpage, cracking or failure to harden, and with these two items I reduced my blade loss not to 5% or 2% but to zero! Now with gained experience and continued improvement in tools, I cannot think of a way that I could lose a mono-steel blade other than a really stupid moment on the grinder. Why would I not want to share that with as many other new guys as I could if I really cared about helping them out?
Based on my experience if I could advise a new guy on two material purchases it would be to get a good steel with a known chemistry and heat history and a good quenching oil to harden it in. These two items improved my life as a knifemaker more than any other thing short of the knowledge in how to use them. I remember losing knives to warpage, cracking or failure to harden, and with these two items I reduced my blade loss not to 5% or 2% but to zero! Now with gained experience and continued improvement in tools, I cannot think of a way that I could lose a mono-steel blade other than a really stupid moment on the grinder. Why would I not want to share that with as many other new guys as I could if I really cared about helping them out?
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And finally for this lunch hour- I think my position on this subject is no secret and I still feel compelled to remain objective for the purposes of this thread, however for my sanity there are some very flawed arguments that I feel the urge to address but I will also replace them some better points that I cannot argue.
First we really should dispense with the cost argument as it is too absurd when you really look at it:
12" Steel type 1080= $6.95
1- 2x72 grinding belt = $4.45
1- 2x72 belt 220= $4.45
1- 8” diameter buffing wheel= $11.95
1- hardwood block ($5-$10) average= $7.50
2- Epoxy ($3.95-$11.95) average= $7.95
2 -brass Corby pins = $4.00
Source- Texas Knifemakers Supply
If you price out a similar bar taken from a $7.53 Admiral 60” length it comes to $1.50!! By far the cheapest item in the basket, and you would have enough steel for at least 5 more knives! You would spend more on gasoline driving to the scrap yard, spring shop, used bed frame store etc… When you compare it to even this limited list of other supplies, if you can’t afford even the steel you can’t afford to make knives! If $1.50, $6.95 or even $7.50 is going to break you, I implore you to forget about knifemaking and feed your family.
Better yet, as Delbert pointed out, pile all of your lawnmower blades up and do the real recycling thing. With scrap prices over $100/ton (I don’t know what it is now) you could afford any steel you like.
As has been pointed out, a box of rusty files, a pile of old springs, rebar, or various angles for bedroom furniture are scrap or mystery steel, 500 lbs of rounds with the original paperwork or even a subsequent analysis is not scrap- it is a find! Jackpot, it is known steel you simply eliminated the middle man. Likewise 50 old saw blades with a spectral analysis showing 0.75%C, .70%Mn, .25%Si, .80%Cr, 1.5%Ni, .30%Mo you can safely stop calling it “saw blades” and just refer to it as L6 with a history, and then heat treat it accordingly. Such examples are arguments for known steel not scrap.
One of the most logic deficient arguments I have seen is the “known steel doesn’t always work out either” or “ new steel can be mislabeled.” So the answer is to abandon the 2%-5% chance of such a curve ball with a 50/50 shot at best??? A small percentage of doctors make some catastrophic mistakes every year, does this mean it is logical to have your neighbor Dave assist you in the garage with your own open heart surgery? I am still trying to wrap my mind around that position.
On the other side of the cost versus value point is historical or sentimental value. Making knives from granddads files or saws has a value beyond steel prices and how well you maximize the steels chemistry is totally irrelevant to that. As I have seen our friend deker has pointed elsewhere, knives made with World Trade Center steel will not respond well to our typical heat treating, but it absolutely does not matter since such blades are worth far more than the best performing blades ever made, that steels value is beyond measure.
Few things look better on a primitive knife than remnants of the steels previous incarnation. In this case the style and genre is the most important aspect and reusing available items it an integral part of that. How stupid would I be to bag on a flint napper because I have no heat treating specs on his choice of obsidian? How could I have any similar stance on a well made frontier knife made from a rasp? Such blades are quite up front with the steels origin, however the guy who is selling a $1500 bowie knife as 5160 when it came from an old truck spring has more of a crisis of conscience that I wish to deal with.
First we really should dispense with the cost argument as it is too absurd when you really look at it:
12" Steel type 1080= $6.95
1- 2x72 grinding belt = $4.45
1- 2x72 belt 220= $4.45
1- 8” diameter buffing wheel= $11.95
1- hardwood block ($5-$10) average= $7.50
2- Epoxy ($3.95-$11.95) average= $7.95
2 -brass Corby pins = $4.00
Source- Texas Knifemakers Supply
If you price out a similar bar taken from a $7.53 Admiral 60” length it comes to $1.50!! By far the cheapest item in the basket, and you would have enough steel for at least 5 more knives! You would spend more on gasoline driving to the scrap yard, spring shop, used bed frame store etc… When you compare it to even this limited list of other supplies, if you can’t afford even the steel you can’t afford to make knives! If $1.50, $6.95 or even $7.50 is going to break you, I implore you to forget about knifemaking and feed your family.
Better yet, as Delbert pointed out, pile all of your lawnmower blades up and do the real recycling thing. With scrap prices over $100/ton (I don’t know what it is now) you could afford any steel you like.
As has been pointed out, a box of rusty files, a pile of old springs, rebar, or various angles for bedroom furniture are scrap or mystery steel, 500 lbs of rounds with the original paperwork or even a subsequent analysis is not scrap- it is a find! Jackpot, it is known steel you simply eliminated the middle man. Likewise 50 old saw blades with a spectral analysis showing 0.75%C, .70%Mn, .25%Si, .80%Cr, 1.5%Ni, .30%Mo you can safely stop calling it “saw blades” and just refer to it as L6 with a history, and then heat treat it accordingly. Such examples are arguments for known steel not scrap.
One of the most logic deficient arguments I have seen is the “known steel doesn’t always work out either” or “ new steel can be mislabeled.” So the answer is to abandon the 2%-5% chance of such a curve ball with a 50/50 shot at best??? A small percentage of doctors make some catastrophic mistakes every year, does this mean it is logical to have your neighbor Dave assist you in the garage with your own open heart surgery? I am still trying to wrap my mind around that position.
On the other side of the cost versus value point is historical or sentimental value. Making knives from granddads files or saws has a value beyond steel prices and how well you maximize the steels chemistry is totally irrelevant to that. As I have seen our friend deker has pointed elsewhere, knives made with World Trade Center steel will not respond well to our typical heat treating, but it absolutely does not matter since such blades are worth far more than the best performing blades ever made, that steels value is beyond measure.
Few things look better on a primitive knife than remnants of the steels previous incarnation. In this case the style and genre is the most important aspect and reusing available items it an integral part of that. How stupid would I be to bag on a flint napper because I have no heat treating specs on his choice of obsidian? How could I have any similar stance on a well made frontier knife made from a rasp? Such blades are quite up front with the steels origin, however the guy who is selling a $1500 bowie knife as 5160 when it came from an old truck spring has more of a crisis of conscience that I wish to deal with.
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It wasnt untill very recently in history that smith even understood what made up steel.From the beginning of the iron age people have forged blades and tools out of unknown irons and steels.If someone just starting out wants to experiment with unknown steel without paying much they should.Then they can decide if they even enjoy knifemaking.
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I noted this morning that 2 more threads have been opened by newbies on the same topic since this one began here in this forum. You might wonder if they looked around at all before posting them.
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I am a snob. That being said have a bandsaw blade that is being made into a few pairing knives. I don't mind turning quality tools into blades but there have been some bad Ideas floating around (cough "bed frame" cough). I think that ball bearings and things that have been engineered to be use for something other that cutting probably should be avoided.
-Josiah
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Mr Kevin, I think if we loose you we will loose a good part of that forum as well. Think of how many talents have improved themselves as you and many other masters replied even to the most silly questions patiently. I can understand the feeling real annoyed when a newbie rejects to listen or some guys acts hostile or stubborn, though you humbly give your million dollar worth experience free... But we as new knife makers did even benefited from reading these kind of threads, learned how not to be a$$hole
, which info is worthy which is not. To a rookie all people is at the same level, all info around has the same value. Reading, applying, failing showed me which info here has the most valuable info, which is applicable for me, who is full of BS. This forum proved to be most resourceful place on my journey and you; masters of this art are no doubt the milestones of our development on knife making. Even though you and Tai or IG or somebody else are not thinking the same way (no one can think the same way I guess), we would loose great deal of light if anyone of you have left us alone with our lack of experience...Your input may be dispensable for most of USA newbies, they would find some experienced smith or maker around. It is not my case though, without your input I would be lost in the darkness of myths and BS, and I would quit my lovely hobby because I wasn't able to produce even one high performance blade. Now I'm an unemployed IT manager in this corner of the world and I turned this hobby to a full time job, now I'm earning almost the same amount (OK may be a bit lower
), but without it I would be hungry and desperately looking for a job. Instead now I love my job, this feeling is unbelievably beautiful, even I can tell a customer "all my blades are lifetime guaranteed for structural failures" (I told that a couple hours ago again ).It's a pleasure having you here...
-ps: sorry for my English, hard to express what I feel though I spent almost an hour to write that
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i can't really add more.. as there seems to be no middle ground and its more a battle for extremists on bothsides to butt heads
actually i could add more.. as i deal with antiques and repolishing.. you'd be surprised what our forefathers used for weapons and such... and those blades were in conflicts... interesting, but it'll get lost in the discussion
buying your steel and heat treating doesn't guarantee much... look at the pos knives in your kitchen... or the many pocket knives that you snaped the tip off of when you were a kid... or the poor steel choice for application...
- why i bet industry and production knives impact the world more due to their volumes of stainless crud... and you don't hear the steel snobs slamming their own ilk .... just peeing down on the newbs for starting out...
on finances... i think that is wrong... i don't know any newbs starting out with a beltgrinder, drillpress, much less a proper heat treat forge, or even a retail steel source that is close by... . that is doubly sure in my case
i thought this was suppose to be fun in the beginning.... don't you remember the struggle and the fun of starting out....
we all help people in the ways we can... when i started making crucible steel ... there was only a few doing it, and they either ignored me or politely told me to pay cash for their process... it was a lonely struggle but it can be done.. (with alot of research) and now i help out who i can ( to the dislike of others) and write as much as i know for free.... .. does it help... i hope it does ...but still i get asked the odd beginner questions... if i add mummy bones to the crucible, will it give the blade power to cut better... can i add these swarf shaving to the charge ?... can i use this fertilzer as flux..? will my homemade crucible of kitty litter work at 1500cel...
we shouldn't take it too personally... there are just many ways to make a knife.. some much better than others..
actually i could add more.. as i deal with antiques and repolishing.. you'd be surprised what our forefathers used for weapons and such... and those blades were in conflicts... interesting, but it'll get lost in the discussion
buying your steel and heat treating doesn't guarantee much... look at the pos knives in your kitchen... or the many pocket knives that you snaped the tip off of when you were a kid... or the poor steel choice for application...
- why i bet industry and production knives impact the world more due to their volumes of stainless crud... and you don't hear the steel snobs slamming their own ilk .... just peeing down on the newbs for starting out...
on finances... i think that is wrong... i don't know any newbs starting out with a beltgrinder, drillpress, much less a proper heat treat forge, or even a retail steel source that is close by... . that is doubly sure in my case
i thought this was suppose to be fun in the beginning.... don't you remember the struggle and the fun of starting out....
we all help people in the ways we can... when i started making crucible steel ... there was only a few doing it, and they either ignored me or politely told me to pay cash for their process... it was a lonely struggle but it can be done.. (with alot of research) and now i help out who i can ( to the dislike of others) and write as much as i know for free.... .. does it help... i hope it does ...but still i get asked the odd beginner questions... if i add mummy bones to the crucible, will it give the blade power to cut better... can i add these swarf shaving to the charge ?... can i use this fertilzer as flux..? will my homemade crucible of kitty litter work at 1500cel...
we shouldn't take it too personally... there are just many ways to make a knife.. some much better than others..
Tai Goo
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Kevin, I sincerely sympathize with you and your position on this topic. As usual, you bring up some good points. I like talking with you.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with buying new steel (I do it), as long as it isn't to the exclusion or to the belittlement of the other possible options... including salvaging/recycling and/or making your own from scratch. I think those guys deserve some credit too.
I used get a lot of "drops", when I had my Nazel 3B, from a big supplier that were color coded, either free or dirt cheap. One time they let me load up my truck as much as I could for free, just to help them clean up. It was really the best of both worlds. Every now and then I'd get a mis-marked piece, but not often. The real draw back for me now is that without a power hammer or some kind of heavy duty saw, those bulky pieces are hard, if not nearly impossible, to break down into usable sizes... Not that I'm going to invest in that type of equipment though, just for that...
I see absolutely nothing wrong with buying new steel (I do it), as long as it isn't to the exclusion or to the belittlement of the other possible options... including salvaging/recycling and/or making your own from scratch. I think those guys deserve some credit too.
I used get a lot of "drops", when I had my Nazel 3B, from a big supplier that were color coded, either free or dirt cheap. One time they let me load up my truck as much as I could for free, just to help them clean up. It was really the best of both worlds. Every now and then I'd get a mis-marked piece, but not often. The real draw back for me now is that without a power hammer or some kind of heavy duty saw, those bulky pieces are hard, if not nearly impossible, to break down into usable sizes... Not that I'm going to invest in that type of equipment though, just for that...
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Wow, I didn't realize my bed frame post would stir up this big of a discussion. I really don't have much to say about this but I found a quote that I like...
"There are many good knife steels out there. When sites and discussions go on and on about steel types and properties, ad nauseam, they are often ignoring balance, fit, finish, geometry, accessories, service, and design. Don't get distracted by steel property details! The steel is just the start of the knife, not the whole." Quoted from Jay Fisher.
I think as a knife maker progresses in his craftsmanship he will then look for better steels to use. You don't learn how to drive behind the wheel of a ferrari.
Dustin
"There are many good knife steels out there. When sites and discussions go on and on about steel types and properties, ad nauseam, they are often ignoring balance, fit, finish, geometry, accessories, service, and design. Don't get distracted by steel property details! The steel is just the start of the knife, not the whole." Quoted from Jay Fisher.
I think as a knife maker progresses in his craftsmanship he will then look for better steels to use. You don't learn how to drive behind the wheel of a ferrari.
Dustin
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fitzo
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DustinHall, I would appreciate you sharing the source of the quote so I can read the context from which it was abstracted. Thank you.
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I guess I've joined the dark side and become a steel snob.
Traded my first bowie for this... 5160 cutoffs. mostly 1/2 inch thick, some 7/16 and some 3/8. About ... pounds worth... Actually weighs 75 LBs.
They didn't want anything for it but I thought it best to keep a good working relationship to give them something in return.
I didn't know Craftsman made ships.
Traded my first bowie for this... 5160 cutoffs. mostly 1/2 inch thick, some 7/16 and some 3/8. About ... pounds worth... Actually weighs 75 LBs.
They didn't want anything for it but I thought it best to keep a good working relationship to give them something in return.
I didn't know Craftsman made ships.
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