Bad Rip off by KEN LEUNG aka “Shadymethods”

[Petunia D. Feeble]

It's scamming PayPal. Perhaps not as objectionable to some as scamming another BF member but a scam all the same.

I think PayPal probably, secretly prefers this sort of transaction. They still get their fees from the buyer, unless you use a linked and confirmed ACH account, but don't have to bother with mediating. They can just hide behind their F&F policy.

I prefer to not have to deal with this sort of headache so I just use G&S. I've sent F&F payments before, unsolicited, as a gesture to the seller, but with the knowledge that I'm stuck with whatever it is that I bought.

 

[Casinostocks]

I agree but we've been shut down on this issue by the mods. They don't want to babysit the exchange, I guess.

I agree that the buyer should have never paid F&F but I don't know why shadymethods is getting a pass on offering it as an option. They're both ethically in the wrong here from the get-go. I don't buy shady's excuse that he only offered F&F because he was so far off his asking price. If you can't come to an agreement on asking price you shouldn't do the deal. Instead these two decide to cheat PayPal, who may be a huge corporation but at least they are operating in good faith.

Yup, babysitting the Exchanges constantly for the F&F shenanigans is too arduous of a task and the supermod resources already spread thin with some seemingly not that active any longer! I hope that all's well with them.

 

[bhyde]

Scamming paypal is not equal to scamming a member of this site. We are not enforcing paypal policies to whatever extent that anyone has agreed to when they signed up. Yes..it's frowned on because of the rash of members that are getting screwed over it..but despite the risks, despite the warnings..they still insist on using F&F to pay for goods.
Hey, that's great that you want to send your pal some cash through paypal, but complaining that you got screwed..here in the GB&U because your pal didn't reciprocate with a free knife or whatever it may be *wink wink* doesn't really obligate action on part of the mod staff. If you take that risk, you accept whatever outcome may be in my opinion.

 

[Hta_evo8]

“ TLE Sharp” or moderator would you be willing to inspect the knife
I’ll include cash to cover shipment back. Send me your address if one of you would like to help out
I don’t think video will be any more convincing than the picts

 

[Petunia D. Feeble]

“ TLE Sharp” or moderator would you be willing to inspect the knife
I’ll include cash to cover shipment back. Send me your address if one of you would like to help out
I don’t think video will be any more convincing than the picts

If ShadyMethods is ok with me acting as arbitrator I'd be fine with it, but I'm not sure what sort of resolution you're hoping for though.

It's been so long since the purchase now that one could always argue the possibility of the knife having been fiddled with in the event that a fault is found. If no fault is found then you're just stuck.

Shady would have to agree to a return in the event of a fault being found.

 

[Hta_evo8]

Whatever is found is found, I’ll accept it as fact on my end. Whether the other party accept it or not that’s his prerogative. As far as I’m concerned the matter has concluded he’s keeping the money leaving the knife in my possession
So Im not trying to get the refund still, that ship has sailed when he stop answering my email.
I reported the problem within the hr of receiving the knife, not a day later, not a week later
So if anybody still want to claim I somehow damage the knife as soon as I touch it, there’s really nothing else to say.
It is still my insistence that functionally there’s no detent, zilch, nada. That the action of the knife is tightened to keep the blade in the handle.
Thank you for stepping up to the plate. Can I send the blade to the address on your webpage or should I send it somewhere else

 

[tyyreaun]

“ TLE Sharp” or moderator would you be willing to inspect the knife
I’ll include cash to cover shipment back. Send me your address if one of you would like to help out
I don’t think video will be any more convincing than the picts

If you're looking for someone to send it to, including offering to pick up shipping costs both ways, why don't you just send it back to the maker for adjustment or repairs? If the maker finds it defective AND requires payment to fix it, then you can bring that up with the seller.

 

[Gastonknife]

Well, from what the facts seem to state here is that the buyer (who should not have used pp ff, and the seller who should not have proposed such a deal) said the knife was not right and asked for a refund. This occurred very quickly and there was no "test drive". Seller should just have said to return for refund. It's not that complicated. Maybe the buyer pays for shipping back, who cares about the details. Seller basically said too bad, no refund. You all can take it from there.

 

[Hta_evo8]

If you're looking for someone to send it to, including offering to pick up shipping costs both ways, why don't you just send it back to the maker for adjustment or repairs? If the maker finds it defective AND requires payment to fix it, then you can bring that up with the seller.

Chris Martin of phantom steelworks owes many people on this forum many knives and many of them have been trying to reach out to him in vain. So I don’t think he’s gonna want to deal with something like this.
The thought did cross my mind but after learning of his predicament I figure an outside shop will be a better bet.

 

[ShadyMethods]

With all due respect, I never said anything along the lines of "too bad, no refund." In the past, I've reversed trades, given partial refunds, given full refunds, and even paid out of pocket to cover the loss of an expensive international package. But, every time it was because of a mistake I made. I own up to those. I just ask that there actually be an issue to justify the refund. I'm not Amazon, I'm not Blade HQ. Even they have a window of time and charge a restocking fee if the reason is because of preference. And, honestly that's what it looks like to me. He bought a knife without asking any questions and is upset that it isn't to his liking. If there was damage or if it wasn't locking, I would ask for proof and instantly take it back. I'd also pay for their return shipping and offer an apology. In fact, that exact situation has happened before. I think that's a fair way to go about things. Refunds are a pain. They're inconvenient and no one really wants to deal with them.

The entire time, I was trying to see if there actually was a problem with it. I'll admit, I started off with some bias since I had personally carried and used it but he never proved that there was an issue. He started off saying complaining about the action and detent. Then when I explained the pivot, he switched to just the detent. Then, he starts making claims that the entire frame is out of alignment. I ask for proof to back up that last claim.

Now, about 6 weeks later he's saying I maliciously lured him into paying F&F just to rip him off, saying that I planned to do this. We all know that's false now. Excuse me if I'm being harsh here but from the beginning I treated him with respect and just asked for proof of his insane claims. If the frame was actually out of alignment, I would have noticed and sent it back to Chris Martin myself. Not too long ago, he did some warranty work for me (detent ball fell out on a DUB so trust me I know what having no detent feels like). Easily one of the most responsive makers I've ever dealt with. I even sent in another DUB for spa along with it. Had both back within a week. So if you want an unbiased party to take a look, the maker himself is about as good as it gets. Not that I have anything against T.L.E. Sharp. I've done business with him before too in the past and I'm still carrying knives with his edge on it.

 

[Triton]

And there has to be a reason for the return. So far the OP can't prove that. Tire kickers aren't welcome here. And if he really cared about protecting himself from getting a bad example he would have paid with goods and services.

When honorable members make a mistake in buying a knife they no longer want, they take the loss and resell.

Disagree. The op should not have to "prove" anything. If he wasn't happy with the transaction and made the seller aware of that in a timely manner then the knife should be returned and a refund issued. A deal is not done until both parties are satisfied.

 

[Peter Hartwig]

. A deal is not done until both parties are satisfied.

While quoted often here. It is not actually a rule on this forum .
I adhere to it since it is a rule on another forum I participate on and it keeps it simple for me to do so. I also think it is the right thing to do in most cases, since no amount of ?'s are as good as seeing and handling the knife. However it does come at a cost. Shipping isn't free and delays in selling are uncertain. There are at times overly picky(to unreasonable) buyers or those that just want to view the knife then decide if it is right for them on my dime-which I have had a few. I try not to take this stuff too seriously and this is how I have chosen to do it, but can see how others might not choose to do so in certain circumstances.
So while I think it is a good policy I also think it can be easily abused.

 

[Goose 7279]

@Hta_evo8 josh at razors edge knives can fix the detent for you and it wont cost too much just guessing about 40 to 60 bucks to drill and put a new detent ball in. Just a thought so your not stuck with a turd.

 

[craytab]

Disagree. The op should not have to "prove" anything. If he wasn't happy with the transaction and made the seller aware of that in a timely manner then the knife should be returned and a refund issued. A deal is not done until both parties are satisfied.

To a certain extent I agree that a buyer shouldn't have to prove anything when wanting a to return an item. I and many other folks still go by the etiquette that a deal is not done until both parties are satisfied. For me personally it is not worth the burden of having a fellow member not happy with their purchase from me. I'd take the return. This isn't a business, it is a hobby, and if I have to deal with stress over a few bucks, the joy is lost.

That said, this is far from a situation I would find myself in. The buyer screwed himself and in a way the seller screwed they buyer by taking F&F. Both did wrong here by screwing paypal. If it were me I would take the return if only because I know if the buyer wasn't happy he/she could simply file a claim with paypal and get their money back that way (because I conducted the transaction properly with paypal goods). Now, the buyer knowing he gave away his protection from paypal for a few bucks needs to accept the fact that whatever he gets, he gets. There is no going back on this one. Further, if you are going to bring a up transaction to the whole forum that you are in no way entitled recourse (whether monetary or otherwise), you had better be able to prove your allegations, which the OP is unwilling to do other than getting a third party involved.

To me, where the "A deal is not done until both parties are satisfied" etiquette falls apart are in instances like this and the tire-kickers we see from time to time. The more of these cases we see, the less that old etiquette rule will be used, and justifiably so I think. We live in a different world these days where a person's word doesn't mean what it once did.

 

[Dopic1]

You get what you pay for, unless I'm sending cash to a "friend or family" member don't use F&F! The whole premise of PP Goods and Services is there to protect both the buyer and the seller, also it's a medium that allows hobbyist like us to buy and sell with confidence.

 

[wazu013]

You get what you pay for, unless I'm sending cash to a "friend or family" member don't use F&F! The whole premise of PP Goods and Services is there to protect both the buyer and the seller, also it's a medium that allows hobbyist like us to buy and sell with confidence.

Common sense.

 

[stonesell]

Many great posts in this thread. The only thing to add in my opinion is that the title is a bit exaggerated. This wasn’t a blatant “rip off”, and although the op is unhappy, he did get a very nice looking and valuable knife. It is unfortunate that he needs to have the action tuned, but that is one of the risks that a person takes, engaging in the trade of semi used folding knives, and paying F&F.

 

[Steven65]

Many great posts in this thread. The only thing to add in my opinion is that the title is a bit exaggerated. This wasn’t a blatant “rip off”, and although the op is unhappy, he did get a very nice looking and valuable knife. It is unfortunate that he needs to have the action tuned, but that is one of the risks that a person takes, engaging in the trade of semi used folding knives, and paying F&F.

I agree with this 100%.

This is a deal that went South for all the previously stated reasons but the seller did not intend to scam or rip off the buyer. The title of the thread should be adjusted to reflect that.

 

[Grayzer86]

I would seriously not send the knife back to the maker. As stated, he’s owes a bunch of people money and knives, and it has been stated that he has also failed to return knives sent for repairs. If you were to send it to him, it’s completely possible that you end up going from $650 for a knife you are not happy with, to out $650 and never seeing the knife again. I would avoid that option like the plague.

 

[Gastonknife]

Shady, you are correct that you may not have used the actual words "too bad" but you did tell him you did not want to refund and asked for "proof". He did apparently attempted to show you a few pics, but that was not good enough to substantiate his claims in your mind- your words exactly. You stated that the knife was near mint and had a "smooth action". So you seem to be describing how you think the knife is supposed to feel differently to him after he received than your own description of the knife itself in your sales thread. Would a knife that had been used and carried be "near mint"?
There seems to be - on your own accord - some of this maker's knives that have detent issues. So it's plausible there could possibly be an issue on this knife as well. The buyer immediately notified you of the problem that he observed. He took the time to take some pictures - but you did not feel that was the "proof" you were looking for. The pictures the buyer posted here are certainly not definitive in any way; however they do seem to indicate that there potentially could be a problem with the detent. In my opinion (and again this is just mine) you should have just accepted the return - and avoided all this. That would seem to be the fair thing. Perhaps you tell him to pay for the return shipping.

How the seller was paid or how the buyer paid is not the crux of the issue here. The issue is that the buyer felt like the knife had issues and the seller decided he did not want to give a refund.

Sending a knife back to this maker would be not be recommended to the buyer, as this maker has documented cases of many problems.

Shady, I do not think for a minute that you intended to rip anyone off and probably feel you are right. Your are probably a good guy overall. But, I do think the right thing to do would have been to take it back. You choose not to and now it's here.
Also, I do think that the buyer is a bit misleading with his title in this post and he should adjust it.