Sanrenmu 7010 vs CRKT Drifter

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Cory Hess said:
The last three or four knives that you have posted about liking are either what I consider a ripoff of another maker's knife or made by a company that produces what I consider ripoffs of other maker's knives.
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Armadew said:
Care to explain?
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Cory Hess said:
Not specifically about your knives. I'm glad that you like them. I can give a specific example from my own knives, and maybe you can apply it to knives that you like and carry.
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It is pointless trying to have a discussion with people who completely contradict themselves.
 
Cory Hess said:
Not specifically about your knives. I'm glad that you like them. I can give a specific example from my own knives, and maybe you can apply it to knives that you like and carry.

I recently owned a Spyderco Manix 2. It's a great knife, and in fact is the knife that made me give modern folders a second chance. At the same time, I consider it a clone to a degree. The CBB lock that Spyderco puts on that knife is an obvious copy of the Benchmade Axis lock in my eyes. I know that many here justify this, and I'm OK with that. If they're happy with their Spydercos then I'm happy for them. It's just not for me. I ended up giving the knife away and don't have any interest in getting another Spyderco with the CBB lock. I am looking forward to the left-handed PM2 that they're coming out with, though. I'm not writing off the company as a whole because I don't agree with their decision on one knife. In fact, the knife that I consider a copy increased my respect for their products, as before that I had only handled Enduras and Delicas and the Manix 2 seemed to be a superior knife to me.

I hold similar beliefs about many ZT knives. They seem like great knives, and I'm happy that so many people can get such joy out of them. However, many of their patterns look like slightly modified copies of other knives to me. I don't wish them ill or think less of people that buy and carry ZT knives. I just have yet to see one that trips my trigger. Maybe they'll come out with something that is original enough for me to have an interest in. I doubt it though, and kind of hope that they don't. They have a good business model that's making them lots of money and lots of fans. I think it'd be a mistake to veer too far off of their current formula.

Now, I believe that Spyderco copying the Axis lock hurts Benchmade much more than Sanrenmu making the 7010 hurts Chris Reeve. I don't believe that Sanrenmu is siphoning off any CRK business by making the 7010, but I do believe that the CBB is siphoning off some of Benchmade's business. I don't believe that this will play a factor in whether or not Benchmade sinks more money into developing another new lock, so I don't think that the CBB is hurting the knife industry. I also don't think that any attempt by me to be self-righteous about my opinions or demeaning towards people that choose to purchase a Spyderco will help the knife industry in any way. I also don't believe that Spyderco's business suffering in any way would benefit the knife industry. I'm just happy that there are so many options out there and that people can buy what they like. Good for them.

We all have to come up with our own criteria on which knives we like and which we don't. We can share experiences and beliefs, but trying to convince somebody to abandon their own and subscribe to yours is just silly. Coming on and saying that you don't support Sanrenmu for whatever reason might sway some people that didn't know about that history. I don't believe that going on a crusade will. Who knows, I might be wrong. Maybe you'll put them out of business. I suspect that you'll have to convince Spyderco and other manufacturers to stop using the Sanrenmu factories to produce their knives. Seems like a big undertaking with very little reward. I think it's a better use of time and energy to try to educate people on how to spot fakes than it is to squabble over whether one knife is different enough from another to meet our arbitrary standards.
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seriously? WOW

the manix2 is a completely different lock that that of the benchmade axis lock, other than they both have a hole in the scale for accessing a lock mechanism. ZT uses a few primary designers, Ken Onion, Hinderer, Dmitry Sinkevich and a few others, including some in house designs. they are the designers and ZT makes them into a production model. how the f are any of those clones? i see cue's of the designers knife in the ZT knife and they give it ZT flair.

seriously you are trying to grab any example you can here and those examples are not going to cut it.

next thing you say better not be they all have frame locks so they are copies.

how about try again please.
 
Right, so I have different criteria than you. Like I said, the things that I consider copies you don't. Now answer the question. Do you think I should be all self righteous and say that everybody should boycott Spyderco and every knife that I don't like? Super simple question.
 
Cory Hess said:
Right, so I have different criteria than you. Like I said, the things that I consider copies you don't. Now answer the question. Do you think I should be all self righteous and say that everybody should boycott Spyderco and every knife that I don't like? Super simple question.
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Well come on man. Im one of if not the most relaxed here when it comes to copies. But even i know their is a HUGE difference between a flat out rip off and a factory collaboration with a custom maker who not only authorized the deal but actually helped usher it into existence. You may "consider" it a copy but that would be an alternative fact and thus flat out incorrect. I might consider a hot dog a hamburger but most of the world is gonna disagree with me and for good reason. If life was simply a matter of looking at things any way you want as to fit your preferred narrative id be a billionaire living in the colorado mountains smoking out of a solid diamond peace pipe. But alas im bound by the harsh truth of reality.
 
Okay, same question as Corey, but use the Bradley Alias. You can't disagree that everyone said it was Benchmade'S Sebenza.

I consider it a ripoff clone.
 
PURPLEDC said:
Well come on man. Im one of if not the most relaxed here when it comes to copies. But even i know their is a HUGE difference between a flat out rip off and a factory collaboration with a custom maker who not only authorized the deal but actually helped usher it into existence. You may "consider" it a copy but that would be an alternative fact and thus flat out incorrect. I might consider a hot dog a hamburger but most of the world is gonna disagree with me and for good reason. If life was simply a matter of looking at things any way you want as to fit your preferred narrative id be a billionaire living in the colorado mountains smoking out of a solid diamond peace pipe. But alas im bound by the harsh truth of reality.
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I'm not sure what you're referring to, maybe the ZT thing? I know that they have Hinderer and Emerson collaborations. I don't have a problem with that at all. In the comment you quoted, I was referring to the Spyderco CBB lock. Unless you're saying that Benchmade helped Spyderco develop the CBB lock. I'm not aware of that being the case. Maybe you can educate me. (not sarcastic at all, I'd genuinely be interested in hearing about this if it's the case)

The larger point is that we all have our own ideas of what makes something a ripoff, just like we all have our own ideas of what is the best knife or best steel. We can all probably agree that the knockoff Spyderco or ZT that's actively trying to pass as an original is a ripoff and probably not the best knife. However, past that I don't think that it's possible to make absolute statements.

I'll try to simplify this even farther. We've been told that we should boycott all Sanrenmu knives because they put out fakes of other company's knives, like Spyderco's Police model. So, to support Spyderco we're to boycott Sanrenmu made knives. Now, Spyderco has hired Sanrenmu to produce some of their knives. Should I boycott some Spyderco knives in order to support Spyderco? Should I boycott all Spyderco knives in order to support Spyderco? This doesn't make sense to me, but it falls in line with the logic that's being used in this thread.

My opinion is that we should all agree that counterfeits that are clearly labelled and marked in such a way as to attempt to fool people into believing that they're authentic should be off-limits for just about anybody. Purchasing decisions of any knife that is labelled and marked as a product of the company that actually made it should be left to the discretion of the buyer, even if that knife bears resemblance to another knife.

I personally steer clear of knives that somebody like Mo2 doesn't have a problem with. That's OK. Mo2 might steer clear of knives that somebody else prefers. That's OK as well. I think it would be ridiculous for me to try to force my opinions on Mo2. I think he'd agree. However, he thinks it's perfectly reasonable for him to try to force his opinions on somebody else. That's where our views diverge. That's all this is really about. This whole conversation boils down to a disagreement on when it's appropriate to attempt to force your opinions on others.
 
Mo2 said:
seriously? WOW

the manix2 is a completely different lock that that of the benchmade axis lock, other than they both have a hole in the scale for accessing a lock mechanism. ZT uses a few primary designers, Ken Onion, Hinderer, Dmitry Sinkevich and a few others, including some in house designs. they are the designers and ZT makes them into a production model. how the f are any of those clones? i see cue's of the designers knife in the ZT knife and they give it ZT flair.
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After looking at cutaways of the two I think the basic principle is pretty similar (:D). Something is held by a spring against flats in the tang to hold it open, or shut. The BBL uses a ball bearing, the Axis lock a bar. It's held tight with a coil spring in the Axis lock and a "straight on" spring in the BBL. It sure seems to be made to look and work similarly, in a similar style.
Mo2 said:
it still is replicated in the style of the sebenza for profit.
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That way Spyderco customers can have a product which works the same way. Of course, this isn't a bigly issue. Products have been made similar to others for years. As long as they are not too similar that's OK.

Cory mentioned many knives looking like others and some have been mentioned similar to the Sebenza already. Don't know specifically what he was referring to but let's not change his argument in the response to it.
PURPLEDC said:
that would be an alternative fact
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Sorry for the selective quote, peace (pipe) bro. I just liked it. I loved your post in the "Chinese Knives" thread going now. Exactly, it is just a hobby, and it is just a forum.

I won't start on the "extensions" on the Axis lock patent.
 
OP here. It was pointed out in an earlier thread (evilgreg) that the 7010 has a similar feel in the hand and cutting ability to the Sebenza. I could see Sebenza owners wanting to own the 7010 to use in potentially "iffy" task situations to prevent placing their Sebenza at unnecessary risk.
 
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If Sanrenmu etched their 7010 with the Chris Reeve name, then this would be a good debate. But, they don't. They put Sanrenmu on their 7010. Same with locks. It makes no sense to complain "this company stole this lock." If you buy a Spyderco with an axis lock, you know you are buying a Spyderco with an axis lock made by Spyderco. If you are buying a Benchmade with an axis lock, you know you are buying a Benchmade with an axis lock made by Benchmade. Even if they are identical. Please see the history of the mouse trap.
 
evilgreg said:
I wouldn't trust my fingers with the 710; not after the lock on the 710 turned out to be about the weakest frame lock ever tested.

Oh wait, I had that mixed up. That was the Sebenza, wasn't it? ;)
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Very interesting video, evilgreg.....Maybe people should buy a Sebenza to use in those "iffy" situations to avoid placing their 7010 at unnecessary risk? ;)
 
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Cory Hess said:
I'm not sure what you're referring to, maybe the ZT thing? I know that they have Hinderer and Emerson collaborations. I don't have a problem with that at all. In the comment you quoted, I was referring to the Spyderco CBB lock. Unless you're saying that Benchmade helped Spyderco develop the CBB lock. I'm not aware of that being the case. Maybe you can educate me. (not sarcastic at all, I'd genuinely be interested in hearing about this if it's the case)

The larger point is that we all have our own ideas of what makes something a ripoff, just like we all have our own ideas of what is the best knife or best steel. We can all probably agree that the knockoff Spyderco or ZT that's actively trying to pass as an original is a ripoff and probably not the best knife. However, past that I don't think that it's possible to make absolute statements.

I'll try to simplify this even farther. We've been told that we should boycott all Sanrenmu knives because they put out fakes of other company's knives, like Spyderco's Police model. So, to support Spyderco we're to boycott Sanrenmu made knives. Now, Spyderco has hired Sanrenmu to produce some of their knives. Should I boycott some Spyderco knives in order to support Spyderco? Should I boycott all Spyderco knives in order to support Spyderco? This doesn't make sense to me, but it falls in line with the logic that's being used in this thread.

My opinion is that we should all agree that counterfeits that are clearly labelled and marked in such a way as to attempt to fool people into believing that they're authentic should be off-limits for just about anybody. Purchasing decisions of any knife that is labelled and marked as a product of the company that actually made it should be left to the discretion of the buyer, even if that knife bears resemblance to another knife.

I personally steer clear of knives that somebody like Mo2 doesn't have a problem with. That's OK. Mo2 might steer clear of knives that somebody else prefers. That's OK as well. I think it would be ridiculous for me to try to force my opinions on Mo2. I think he'd agree. However, he thinks it's perfectly reasonable for him to try to force his opinions on somebody else. That's where our views diverge. That's all this is really about. This whole conversation boils down to a disagreement on when it's appropriate to attempt to force your opinions on others.
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I was referring to the ZT comments and then you saying we all have different ideas of what a knock off is. Now in general I totally agree with you. I am of the opinion that I don't care what is copied as long as no counterfeit logos are used. You can make a carbon copy of a knife and to me as long as no fake identifying marks are used then I could care less. But I also think this way of thinking has its limitations. Like ZT. I literally cant view anything they make as a rip off as everything is an authorized collab. And the one knife I felt borrowed too heavily from another persons work went on to actually lead to a collaboration and patent for ZT. So if that maker is happy then I really haven't got anything to say. Now I do think some go way too far with it and look way too hard at a knife to try and find similarities. But still, opinions are just that and I don't need to change someone elses to feel better about mine.
 
Couldn't agree with you more, Purp. To clarify, when I talk about copies I'm just talking about what I look for in a knife for myself. I have no problem with what Spyderco or ZT do as a company. I'm not too interested in any ZTs, but I don't think that they're in the wrong in any way. I've found that I have to be very particular in which knives I choose to buy because I'll fall in love with just about any knife that gets released, which gets very expensive very quickly. I try to really limit the knives I'm interested in owning as a form of impulse control. If there weren't other knives that I'm more interested in, like CRKs, I'm sure I'd be all over some ZTs. ;)
 
I still can't believe you guys are still arguing about two peice of crap knives. id rather take a piece of scrap steel and sharpen it then use this junk.
 
LastRodeo said:
Bryan, please send me an email through my profile.
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Why?

This thread has taken on a life of its own and has angered a lot of people whom I have never met. I simply wanted to know how people felt about two inexpensive knives, the 7010 and the Drifter. I NEVER had any interest in the Small Sebenza in the first place, so CR didn't lose a sale.

I have learned quite a bit from this thread, both about knives and about knife enthusiasts. As a friend of mine would say, there's good, great, bad and ugly. I learned enough to know that maintaining my anonymity would be wise.

So I'm not sending any private emails to anyone involved with this thread. Keeping it all in the public eye.

Best,

Bryan
 
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He was probably going to offer to send you one of the knives you're interested in for free. One thing I've learned about knife enthusiasts is that many of us are very generous with knives in our collections that have fallen out of rotation. I could be wrong, of course, but I'd say it's worth the email to find out.
 
Cory Hess said:
He was probably going to offer to send you one of the knives you're interested in for free. One thing I've learned about knife enthusiasts is that many of us are very generous with knives in our collections that have fallen out of rotation. I could be wrong, of course, but I'd say it's worth the email to find out.
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If that's the case, I would say "thank you".

But one of the recent posts on this thread was "I still can't believe you guys are still arguing about two peice (piece sp) of crap knives. id rather take a piece of scrap steel and sharpen it then use this junk."

For the record I too have gifted knives from my collection that I hadn't been using or had doubles. Within the past month I have gifted two SAK's and an Esee Zancudo with the recipient's initials and the date given engraved on the pocket clip.
 
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