SanRenMu is back. Sort of.

[katanas]

Apples to oranges my butt! You took a while searching for that one; you know VERY well that the principal applies to waaayyy more than my replica cars example. I told Legendary-Jarl he would get nowhere, I'm taking my own advice. I do not condone theft, I just do not agree with everyone's definition thereof. I'm outa here! I am pleased with all the enthusiasm.

 

[Legendary_Jarl]

The cloners are stealing other companies' aesthetics to sell knives. Whether or not the original company is financially impacted is completely irrelevant. They have the right to reserve their designs for their own products.

Instead of asking whether or not the original company is financially impacted, you should be asking why the cloners are stealing designs in the first place. If there was no financial gain for cloners, they would simply develop their own design aesthetic. They are achieving financial gain using other people's intellectual property without receiving permission or paying a royalty.

Furthermore, you are in no position to correct anyone's spelling. There's no such thing as a utencil, or a Chris Reeves.

You talk of the damn Sebenza as if it had taken Chris Reeve 10 years of design and development. A knife such as simple and ugly probably took his 15 minutes in the crapper. Seriously. The "design" is so simple I fail to see he could possibly have a claim to a patent. His steel is a different story. If the Chinese had grabbed the formula and manufacturing methods of S35VN and then label it as something different and sold that then I would agree that a crime has been committed here. And I will correct any spelling mistake as much as I see fit regardless if you consider me in the position or not, thank you very much. Nothing wrong with that or with you correcting me on 'utensil'. English is not my first language so I appreciate any opportunities for improvement.

First you said they used his design. Now you say it was influenced.

Second, it is theft of his work. He put time and energy and hard work into it, and they took it.

Its very simple.

Justify it any way that makes you feel ok, plenty do. Even, surprisingly, members here.

You're not focusing on the argument. For a knife as simple as that I wouldn't believe if he put much design work other than sitting in the crapper for 10-15 minutes with pen and paper.

Your analogies are way off the mark - do VW or Ford release cheap Ferrari clones that blatantly steal from their designers and engineers? Your, "it's just a shape" argument is equally misguided - you can't copy other musicians' music and claim "it's just sound".

Stealing a design is unethical and just plain tacky, regardless of who the end user is. People work hard to create innovative and original designs and should be allowed to reap the benefits of their work and creativity, which is one of the main reasons behind IP rights. Your justification essentially boils down to this: "I would never buy a CRK but I am entitled to Chris Reeve's designs and concepts because I am not in his target demographic". This is absurd and self-entitlement at its finest.

You can do as you please, but if you support clones made in countries with poor IP rights and practices then you clearly aren't a supporter of legitimate knife manufacturers and the knife community in general. People vote with their dollars, and patronizing clone manufacturers shows whose side you are on (and it isn't the side of creativity, innovation, imagination, and expertise).

You're probably right. It does take a lot of development & personnel for car components. A knife as simple as the Sebenza didn't require any of that. I fail to see how the knife is unique other than having the special material which Chris Reeve did put a lot of effort in developing. And if Chris Reeves did not invent frame locking folding knifes with drop point stainless steel blades he himself is basing on someone else's work.

 

[Kbrasmodeler]

It's probably a mistake to get involved, but here I go.
It may not cost them the sale of a knife to someone who isn't going to spend $500 on a knife, but consider this: Joe Blow, a non-knife-knut, buys a SanRenMu 710, or whatever it is, for $15, then sees a picture of a Sebenza online. "Cool!" he thinks. "I got a heck of a deal on this expensive knife. I didn't know it was called a Sebenza. And, it is made of something called 'super-steel'! I can do anything with this!" He goes out and breaks his "Sebenza", maybe injuring himself in the process. Immediately, he contacts CRK, and complains about it. They do their best to help poor Joe, and ask him to ship the "Sebenza" to them so they can determine the issue, possibly even paying for shipping. Of course, they immediately determine that the knife is not a Sebenza, and they inform Joe of this. Joe, not being a knife-knut, and not knowing the reputation of CRK, doesn't believe them. They must be lying to protect their company. He finds Bladeforums, and rants about the poor CRK quality and CS. Most of us don't believe him, but maybe some do. Then, he tells all his friends the same sob story. Maybe he even posts a Yelp review, and people looking for a sharpening service for their VG-10 knife that won't get shaving sharp read it. Now, not only has CRK spent time and money trying to help someone who never bought from them, but they are losing potential sales, as well as their reputation. Now, Joe was never going to spend $500 on any knife, but maybe now you can see that he hurt the company by buying a clone. If you multiply this by the hundreds of times this happens, or maybe even thousands, you can see how Spyderco nearly went out of business. Clones, counterfeits, and copies, all hurt legitimate designers and producers.

 

[Hackenslash]

You talk of the damn Sebenza as if it had taken Chris Reeve 10 years of design and development. A knife such as simple and ugly probably took his 15 minutes in the crapper. Seriously. The "design" is so simple I fail to see he could possibly have a claim to a patent. His steel is a different story. If the Chinese had grabbed the formula and manufacturing methods of S35VN and then label it as something different and sold that then I would agree that a crime has been committed here. And I will correct any spelling mistake as much as I see fit regardless if you consider me in the position or not, thank you very much. Nothing wrong with that or with you correcting me on 'utensil'. English is not my first language so I appreciate any opportunities for improvement.



You're not focusing on the argument. For a knife as simple as that I wouldn't believe if he put much design work other than sitting in the crapper for 10-15 minutes with pen and paper.



You're probably right. It does take a lot of development & personnel for car components. A knife as simple as the Sebenza didn't require any of that. I fail to see how the knife is unique other than having the special material which Chris Reeve did put a lot of effort in developing. And if Chris Reeves did not invent frame locking folding knifes with drop point stainless steel blades he himself is basing on someone else's work.

You should stop attacking the Sebenza in your defense of a clone. It makes your argument invalid, uninformed, transparent and irrational. As a supporter of theft you should stick with weak attempts to rationalize morality. That way you come across as situationally ethical rather than filled with rage against a fine knife you can’t own.

You’re welcome.

Hang in there. I’ll keep reading to see if you make a cogent point.

 

[cabfrank]

I respected their cost to quality ratio way back when I got into knives. I never sought out blatant ripoffs (they do have some of their own designs), but I did consider trying certain cheap but similar designs, before spending more dollars on originals. Since then, I have become disgusted with counterfeit products, and sworn off companies that produce them as a whole. I will no longer support any of them, and won't buy even their own original designs any more. The watch industry is at least as bad in this regard, and once I see a blatant ripoff of an original design, I write the brand off completely. This is not preaching, or a high horse, it's just the way I feel. I choose not to spend my dollars supporting those companies that, in my opinion, steal from others.

 

[danbot]

Apples to oranges my butt! You took a while searching for that one; you know VERY well that the principal applies to waaayyy more than my replica cars example. I told Legendary-Jarl he would get nowhere, I'm taking my own advice. I do not condone theft, I just do not agree with everyone's definition thereof. I'm outa here! I am pleased with all the enthusiasm.

It's not a principle with replica cars. It's a law.

 

[MolokaiRider]

I think some of this boils down to ethics and innovation drivers.

If I create a product that costs me time and money only to have the design stolen and reproduced (even if it was tweaked just a little to be “almost” like it) it would cause me to question the value of continued innovation. Do we want to drive innovation or not?

Second, if I create a product design in the same parameters as above and another claims the work as there own, is that ethical?

 

[danbot]

Apples to oranges my butt! You took a while searching for that one; you know VERY well that the principal applies to waaayyy more than my replica cars example. I told Legendary-Jarl he would get nowhere, I'm taking my own advice. I do not condone theft, I just do not agree with everyone's definition thereof. I'm outa here! I am pleased with all the enthusiasm.

I found that on my first google search.
Run along now little fella it's getting late!

 

[danbot]

You talk of the damn Sebenza as if it had taken Chris Reeve 10 years of design and development. A knife such as simple and ugly probably took his 15 minutes in the crapper. Seriously. The "design" is so simple I fail to see he could possibly have a claim to a patent. His steel is a different story. If the Chinese had grabbed the formula and manufacturing methods of S35VN and then label it as something different and sold that then I would agree that a crime has been committed here. And I will correct any spelling mistake as much as I see fit regardless if you consider me in the position or not, thank you very much. Nothing wrong with that or with you correcting me on 'utensil'. English is not my first language so I appreciate any opportunities for improvement.



You're not focusing on the argument. For a knife as simple as that I wouldn't believe if he put much design work other than sitting in the crapper for 10-15 minutes with pen and paper.



You're probably right. It does take a lot of development & personnel for car components. A knife as simple as the Sebenza didn't require any of that. I fail to see how the knife is unique other than having the special material which Chris Reeve did put a lot of effort in developing. And if Chris Reeves did not invent frame locking folding knifes with drop point stainless steel blades he himself is basing on someone else's work.

Haha! Your arguments are laughable! You should try another forum.

 

[marcinek]

You talk of the damn Sebenza as if it had taken Chris Reeve 10 years of design and development. A knife such as simple and ugly probably took his 15 minutes in the crapper. Seriously. The "design" is so simple I fail to see he could possibly have a claim to a patent.

Ah. So he couldn't have spent much time designing it, so stealing the design is OK.

That's another new one.

 

[stonproject]

I think some of this boils down to ethics and innovation drivers.

If I create a product that costs me time and money only to have the design stolen and reproduced (even if it was tweaked just a little to be “almost” like it) it would cause me to question the value of continued innovation. Do we want to drive innovation or not?

Second, if I create a product design in the same parameters as above and another claims the work as there own, is that ethical?

I've noticed in the firearms world, everyone is copying everybody. If someone comes up with an innovative idea, people start replicating that idea, and I haven't seen any gun enthusiasts getting upset over companies copying each other like people get upset in this community over knife designs copying each other. Is it because theres more of a perception of knives as art?

 

[MolokaiRider]

I've noticed in the firearms world, everyone is copying everybody. If someone comes up with an innovative idea, people start replicating that idea, and I haven't seen any gun enthusiasts getting upset over companies copying each other like people get upset in this community over knife designs copying each other. Is it because theres more of a perception of knives as art?

That’s a great question and I could only speculate. Imitation is the highest form of flattery I suppose. I don’t presume to understand or even how to articulate unpacking design infringement.

One could argue that having your design copied pushes innovation further to remain competitive. Or, it could also be construed that it’s blatant theft. I posted a link earlier on IP theft, I’d be curious to hear others thoughts on the subject.

I would mention that Sal at Spyderco has shared his experience in this matter and I personally tend to drift towards his sentiment.

This is a great subject of discussion though and I’m interested in reading people’s opinions on this matter.

 

[Legendary_Jarl]

It's probably a mistake to get involved, but here I go.
It may not cost them the sale of a knife to someone who isn't going to spend $500 on a knife, but consider this: Joe Blow, a non-knife-knut, buys a SanRenMu 710, or whatever it is, for $15, then sees a picture of a Sebenza online. "Cool!" he thinks. "I got a heck of a deal on this expensive knife. I didn't know it was called a Sebenza. And, it is made of something called 'super-steel'! I can do anything with this!" He goes out and breaks his "Sebenza", maybe injuring himself in the process. Immediately, he contacts CRK, and complains about it. They do their best to help poor Joe, and ask him to ship the "Sebenza" to them so they can determine the issue, possibly even paying for shipping. Of course, they immediately determine that the knife is not a Sebenza, and they inform Joe of this. Joe, not being a knife-knut, and not knowing the reputation of CRK, doesn't believe them. They must be lying to protect their company. He finds Bladeforums, and rants about the poor CRK quality and CS. Most of us don't believe him, but maybe some do. Then, he tells all his friends the same sob story. Maybe he even posts a Yelp review, and people looking for a sharpening service for their VG-10 knife that won't get shaving sharp read it. Now, not only has CRK spent time and money trying to help someone who never bought from them, but they are losing potential sales, as well as their reputation. Now, Joe was never going to spend $500 on any knife, but maybe now you can see that he hurt the company by buying a clone. If you multiply this by the hundreds of times this happens, or maybe even thousands, you can see how Spyderco nearly went out of business. Clones, counterfeits, and copies, all hurt legitimate designers and producers.

I don't think your scenario is very plausible. What kind of an idiot would buy a knife called Sanrenmu 710 and then assume he has a Chris Reeves Sebenza? Specially when both names appear together in videos and forums calling out the design of the first being based on the later. Alternatively, consider the following scenario: Joe Perez who is not a knife-nut buys a Sanrenmu, falls in love with the design, does some digging and finds out about the actual Chris Reeve Sebenza and decides to save money to buy it. Maybe Joe Perez would even find this forum full of snobs who look down upon anything below 300 dollars and decide he wants to be just lke them. He'll get his gold membership and keep wasting 500 dollars annually on Chris Reeve's overpriced EDC pocket knives. Everyone happy. Which scenario is more plausible?

 

[danbot]

I've noticed in the firearms world, everyone is copying everybody. If someone comes up with an innovative idea, people start replicating that idea, and I haven't seen any gun enthusiasts getting upset over companies copying each other like people get upset in this community over knife designs copying each other. Is it because theres more of a perception of knives as art?

I don't know much about the gun world, but in our knife world there are a lot of examples of makers freely sharing their innovations. Some choose to patent their designs and that should also be respected.
I suspect that with guns, people are much more concerned with quality (safety) than anything else. And who wants to knowingly buy a fake 9mm Glock just because it's cheap!?

 

[MolokaiRider]

I did some quick Google searching and found many examples of gun manufacturers suing over design infringement. The problem is the inherent cost of litigation. A manufacturer must decide if it’s worth pursuing enough if it offsets enough of their profits. A design patent is not inherently the US patent office to enforce, but rather allows a company to sue.

For example; Company A steals Company B’s design, but the profit margin of Company B is not impacted enough to warrant the cost of litigation.

Company B is still the inherent loser in this deal regardless.

 

[danbot]

I don't think your scenario is very plausible. What kind of an idiot would buy a knife called Sanrenmu 710 and then assume he has a Chris Reeves Sebenza? Specially when both names appear together in videos and forums calling out the design of the first being based on the later. Alternatively, consider the following scenario: Joe Perez who is not a knife-nut buys a Sanrenmu, falls in love with the design, does some digging and finds out about the actual Chris Reeve Sebenza and decides to save money to buy it. Maybe Joe Perez would even find this forum full of snobs who look down upon anything below 300 dollars and decide he wants to be just lke them. He'll get his gold membership and keep wasting 500 dollars annually on Chris Reeve's overpriced EDC pocket knives. Everyone happy. Which scenario is more plausible?

We don't look down on clones because we're $300+ or it's crap knife snobs. It's because it hurts our hobby and the companies that have earned our respect and appreciation.

 

[danbot]

I did some quick Google searching and found many examples of gun manufacturers suing over design infringement. The problem is the inherent cost of litigation. A manufacturer must decide if it’s worth pursuing enough if it offsets enough of their profits. A design patent is not inherently the US patent office to enforce, but rather allows a company to sue.

For example; Company A steals Company B’s design, but the profit margin of Company B is not impacted enough to warrant the cost of litigation.

Company B is still the inherent loser in this deal regardless.

That makes a lot of sense.

 

[marcinek]

I don't think your scenario is very plausible. What kind of an idiot would buy a knife called Sanrenmu 710 and then assume he has a Chris Reeves Sebenza? Specially when both names appear together in videos and forums calling out the design of the first being based on the later. Alternatively, consider the following scenario: Joe Perez who is not a knife-nut buys a Sanrenmu, falls in love with the design, does some digging and finds out about the actual Chris Reeve Sebenza and decides to save money to buy it. Maybe Joe Perez would even find this forum full of snobs who look down upon anything below 300 dollars and decide he wants to be just lke them. He'll get his gold membership and keep wasting 500 dollars annually on Chris Reeve's overpriced EDC pocket knives. Everyone happy. Which scenario is more plausible?

Ah. Everybody knows it is a knockoff and that makes it OK. Another new one.

Sebenza users are snobs and that makes it OK. Another new one!

Gotta admire your commitment to rationalization.

 

[Legendary_Jarl]

You should stop attacking the Sebenza in your defense of a clone. It makes your argument invalid, uninformed, transparent and irrational. As a supporter of theft you should stick with weak attempts to rationalize morality. That way you come across as situationally ethical rather than filled with rage against a fine knife you can’t own. You’re welcome. Hang in there. I’ll keep reading to see if you make a cogent point.

Oh I'm not attacking the Sebenza or even Chris Reeve. I'm attacking the stupid parrots who say I support thieves while they are unable to provide any arguments and who also think the Sebenza is a breakthrough in knife design, the pinacle of knife design worthy of a patent. It is not. The steel IS. I give him credit there. Also there is a difference between "CAN" and "WON'T". If I wanted to I could get a Sebenza just as I could get a $168 dollar t-shirt I saw the other day at Bloomingdale. I don't want to get either and I fail to understand why anyone would.

I think some of this boils down to ethics and innovation drivers.

If I create a product that costs me time and money only to have the design stolen and reproduced (even if it was tweaked just a little to be “almost” like it) it would cause me to question the value of continued innovation. Do we want to drive innovation or not?

Second, if I create a product design in the same parameters as above and another claims the work as there own, is that ethical?

I fail to see how the design of the knife other than the steel constitutes innovation. The steel does.

Haha! Your arguments are laughable! You should try another forum.

So laughable you couldn't even answer one argument.

Ah. So he couldn't have spent much time designing it, so stealing the design is OK.

That's another new one.

It is such a simple design I wonder if anything was "stolen" at all.

I've noticed in the firearms world, everyone is copying everybody. If someone comes up with an innovative idea, people start replicating that idea, and I haven't seen any gun enthusiasts getting upset over companies copying each other like people get upset in this community over knife designs copying each other. Is it because theres more of a perception of knives as art?

Same with cars. I mean look at cars in the 80's all square. They became more rounded up in the 90's and suddenly every car maker had a 4 cylinder small car and suddenly Toyota came up with the Tundra and hit the turf of Ford and GMC and now everybody has a crossover SUV model. Where do we draw the line? I bet you most of the hypocrites on this thread own something un-original for which the "creator" stood in the shoulders of others to make his product. And like I said, unless Chris Reeve invented folding knives he is standing in the shoulders of others himself. Where do we draw the line?

 

[Legendary_Jarl]

Ah. Everybody knows it is a knockoff and that makes it OK. Another new one.

Sebenza users are snobs and that makes it OK. Another new one!

Gotta admire your commitment to rationalization.

No, not everyone. Just the idiots in this thread who idolize the man and the knife.