Schatt & Morgan Keystone Series #69 - Barlow ?

fatcorgi said:
if the OP, who can see it from every angle, insists that it is a screw, how can we argue that? (though obviously it is fun :))
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There is no disrespect to the OP whatsoever. But I learned a long time ago that given two possible explanations, it is the most feasible the vast majority of the time. The odds that there is any kind of component such as being discussed even used in this knife, much less left as an obstruction, are so slim as to boggle the mind. But the odds that a component was left with a rough finish and is causing the appearance of an obstruction at the exact same location that the backspring would have the buildup shown in the photo - is completely possible.

I understand that the OP is looking right at it and feels whole-heartedly that it is an unexplainable obstruction. I love him and don't want to offend him. But I am only looking at a quick and dirty photo, but have seen/handled enough knives that it is less unexplainable to my eye. The only way now for us NOT to know is to send it back without looking into it. And why would you even do that if you could make money from NOT sending it back to the seller? Me being wrong is not nearly as worrisome to me as having some type of threaded debris shoved into a factory knife. Not to mention the thread has really given a black eye to Queen for what I suspect is an undeserved speculative observation. Again, I know what I am saying could be read as agitating to the OP, and for that I apologize. But the only way to find out for sure, seems to be being avoided at all cost. And I assure you that the seller is going to look at it, clear it as standard, and put it right back in the next box going out - can your conscience stand putting that defective anomaly disgrace to cutlery everywhere right back on the streets? I'll give you $100 store credit to send it to esnyx - which is probably a $15+ profit...

This thread is interesting and fun. I enjoy playing devils advocate to the chagrin of my family and friends and love the concept of the "10th man" in World War Z. So forgive me for being so adamant about desiring a resolution to this weeks most controversial and interesting cutlery anomaly.
 
The BIG question is why is the pin threaded on that shield? That would mean that the shield and liner are tapped holes and the threaded pin is ground flush after assembly. Just plain weird.
 
fatcorgi said:
surely a photo taken from a slightly different angle would resolve this? if the OP, who can see it from every angle, insists that it is a screw, how can we argue that? (though obviously it is fun :))
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This is very persuasive to me. Luger can actually see whatever it is; I trust his eyewitness report.

okbohn said:
This is an awesome thread. Two of the smartest knife guys I know are ready to tear a knife apart to satisfy their curiosity! FUN!
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:thumbup::thumbup:
I love a good mystery, and haven't had time this week to read a little from my current mystery novel, but this thread is a heck of a good substitute!! :D

- GT
 
This thread is interesting and fun. I enjoy playing devils advocate to the chagrin of my family and friends and love the concept of the "10th man" in World War Z. So forgive me for being so adamant about desiring a resolution to this weeks most controversial and interesting cutlery anomaly.
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It is an enjoyable thread as well as educational. I appreciate the position you have taken and also look forward to the resolution.
 
Alas, we may never find out for sure, what is going on in that knife. The OP has sent it back to the seller.
Who wants to seek out the seller, and try to purchase it as is?

One detail: I have not seen a threaded Shield pin before. What the heck is that about??
 
I don't think Queen has gotten a black eye from this. They turn out a lot of knives and this one might have an issue. Pretty good batting average. In the end as long as this issue is resolved all is good.
Dave
 
hmm, now I'm curious too about what is really going on with that knife, since it sparks so much varied speculation from the most knowledgeable people here. ...on a side note, does this mean that S&M knives have pinned and not glued shields?
 
Welp, there goes that...

As far as threaded shield pins, I have seen quite a few throughout my adventures. My guess is that it is done to help grip the shield in place before it is snipped and pinned. This would make more sense if a drop of glue was used to hold the shield in place, as the threading would give more surface area on the pin for the glue to adhere to.

I've seen them used by different manufacturers, but oddly enough, not consistently. I'll post up some different examples here shortly.
 
dpowers311 said:
I don't think Queen has gotten a black eye from this. They turn out a lot of knives and this one might have an issue. Pretty good batting average. In the end as long as this issue is resolved all is good.
Dave
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Well if they are putting shields on with boogered up 16 penny brass nails or sending out knives with random stripped brass screws laying around; they should get a black eye ;)

fatcorgi said:
...on a side note, does this mean that S&M knives have pinned and not glued shields?
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Most are pinned with a very small NS pin, and humorously enough, actually where the shield is and not down at the backspring :D

Sorry I can't resist; and especially since we will never know!! That is how our politicians are correct about what "would" have happened if they had their way on some issue in the past.
 
Ok, all of my suspicions have been confirmed.

Aaaand here is my proof:

The victims

E4648554-3AB9-4758-BE4E-85BFD827A2EE_zpsmmfjhjob.jpg


As I mentioned before, I suspected that the pins were threaded to provide more adhesion when glue is used. In this pic we can clearly see the glue residue:

52C08536-16E1-4781-A5CD-25D38A4DF0A6_zpspmqer1vm.jpg


After using a little CA solvent and a fine pick, I was able to expose the threads on the pin. Note that the pin is not pinned through the shield, but rather soldered or welded to the back.

100C9A03-8979-413E-B032-CF4A41423B4D_zpscaj5eeqt.jpg


Here is the shield off of the other S&M I disassembled. Notice how short the pins are? They are not pinned to the liners, but held in place with some glue. This pin is significantly shorter than the other one, but had a hole drilled completely through the bone scale, as if it should go all the way through, but no hole in the liner.

5B233F3C-060A-4521-842F-544A6C18536A_zpswkerohg1.jpg


Scale from the shorter pin shield:

74F17FDB-9935-49F0-A0EE-A1BA7867D66B_zpsvviut0r3.jpg

350DA505-A73B-49A0-B25D-21481917DE15_zpsegevxfzh.jpg


And the scale from the first shield where the threading is visible. The hole wasn't drilled all the way through on this one...

EFD60542-A164-4382-8A5B-514794CA6644_zpsqz01ncbg.jpg

F78350A0-66AA-49D4-81F1-70F20ACF3B6D_zpsfyxiep2v.jpg


As I previously suspected, I believe that the pin hole was drilled too deep and then the pin was not snipped on the inside, leaving an overhanging pin that was then mashed down by the blade, pushing it down to the backspring.

Unfortunately we will never be able to confirm this 100%, but I am 99.9% sure that this is what happened. Zee proof is in zee pudding...
 
You think a blade was brought down with such force that it bent that screw down to the backspring without making a mark on the blade itself? And how far do you feel a screw would have been bent over to reach the backspring? What would that make the length of the screws exposed back? Was the screw sheared off at the shield and only left melded to the backspring?

Where is the brass liner in your picture? Is it pierced?
 
This mystery is going to bounce around in my brain for awhile. Akin to finding a time capsule in an old building and throwing it in the landfill unopened :eek:
 
esnyx said:
Ok, all of my suspicions have been confirmed.

Aaaand here is my proof:
….

As I previously suspected, I believe that the pin hole was drilled too deep and then the pin was not snipped on the inside, leaving an overhanging pin that was then mashed down by the blade, pushing it down to the backspring.

Unfortunately we will never be able to confirm this 100%, but I am 99.9% sure that this is what happened. Zee proof is in zee pudding...
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Monsieur Evan Poirot is very convincing. :D
(Although the bit about the blade mashing down the unsnipped pin seems a little unlikely. Could someone have seen it sticking through, tried to shear it off with a little chisel or whatever - but failed to cut it off cleanly - and then not inspected their work to make sure it was gone? That last part doesn't seem likely either :confused:)

- GT
 
How the pin was bent is the only thing I am not sure about (besides how it passed QC...). I think that during assembly the pin was bent by the other scale then either pushed the remainder of the way down by the blade, or some other object, perhaps a chisel? Thin brass rods are quite soft, and the threads cause weak points in the pin making it easier to bend. OP did mention that there is a mark on the blade from where it contacts the brass, so this is feasible. As far as the liners on the S&M's I took apart, there are no holes for the shields... I'd take pics, but the knife is already back together...
 
You guys are incredible! I started this post thinking I would get a response or two, confirm my suspicion and send it back for an exchange! But no this thing took on a life of its own. I had no idea this would cause such a firestorm of debate and ivestigation. Mike wanting to perform an autopsy on this specimen and Esnyx performing one on a similar species. I am impressed with your dogged determination to get to the bottom of this. Talk about knife enthusiasm and knife enthusiasts.
Well it went back to the seller for an exchange. At this point I am very curious what the second one will look like. I almost regret/sorry I posted this to begin with but this whole drama has me rivetted to my electronic display device. I am overwhelmed for being at the center of this spontaneous eruption of knife scrutinization!

Thanks my fellow traditional knife enthusiasts
 
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