Sebenza 31 Lock Rock?!

[353]

So I got my Large Micarta 31 and mine has the movement...not too worried, but noticed that when i grip the knife hard the lockbar engages more, and the “lockflex” goes away.
To be honest, id rather not have this flex, and am tired right now, so will post again tomorrow with my other thoughts.

Looking forward to hear your thoughts.

 

[Heirphoto]

Tried all of mine, 21, 25, Inkosi and Zaan. Frame on hard table, fingers pressed against the lock bar, pressure applied to spine. All four moved and I could feel the lock bar flex upwards towards the frame. Zaan moved more than the others, 21 moved the least.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Looking forward to hear your thoughts.

Ok...where to start...

As some of you know, I love my Large Sebenza 21’s. I use them in the bush, at work and for all the daily mundane tasks. The simplicity of a 21 is beautiful.

Now, I have had my Large Micarta CRK 31 now for a solid 48 hrs. I took it out of the box, jiggled for “lock flex,” frowned when I could feel it, and put it in my pocket to head off to work. I have used it for a few tasks at work so far and have already given it some “snail trails.” Now its mine forever.

I definitely will say that the 31’s “lockflex” is a lot more than I was anticipating. I have a few other nitpiks I will state before we get into this “lockflex,” if that is ok with you all.

First off, I love the inlays, if you have ever had to cut something with a grip that put the tips of your fingers between the inlays on the 21’s, than the 31’s inlays will feel amazing! However, the redesigned sculpting at the pointer finger relief, is a downfall to me. While it makes the 31 look so beautiful, it actually makes it so I can feel the “point” of the lockbar on my finger when pushing through material, or bearing down on the knife.

Second, and this is just my preference. I dislike the angled pocket clip...why oh why??
It lands in the middle of my palm and is really irritating...so chalk one up for Millit, as I will be purchasing one for this knife. Hopefully that clip, without its upward tail end protrusion, will be more comfortable. I never noticed a hotspot on my 21’s because of pocket clip placement.

Third, and short....if you have a hard time with the 21’s thumbstuds (no they havent changed) the 31, with its ceramic lockball integrated detent ball, makes the 31 a joy to open and close.

And that brings us to the new ceramic lockball interface...I will be the first to say this...I’m sorry I was “hard” on some of you BF members (if you believe i was). I have no fricking idea how CRK thinks this much “lockflex” is acceptable. Let me put it to you all this way...when I go out for work, I put the 31 AND my 21 in my pocket!! I know my 21 can handle the work safely, but can the 31? That is the question.
As much as I dislike the “lockflex,” I am commited to using the hector out of the 31 at work and home for the next 3 months, to see how it holds up.

Honestly, how this kind of “lockflex” is deemed acceptable from a company I hold in such high regards is unacceptable to me. They need to fix this asap. A minor amount of “lockflex” is normal for framelocks. This is not minor.

Almost done...the other issue I have with the ceramic lockball interface is that, in order for the “ball” to lockup around 50-70%, the actual lockbar sits close to 75-90% of the way, almost touching the presentation scale. This is before the “break in period.” A little worried about that, but we will see if it moves in the next 3 months.

That all being said, my Zaan, and all of my Sebenza 21’s have “lockflex” that I am totally fine with because that is the nature of the framelock lock geometry. They very in “lockflex” but not by much and is so slight you really have to push on the spine of the blade to feel it. My 31 is noticeable without using a table to push on the spine.

Now...like i stated in an earlier post, if I push the 31’s lockbar in a touch more, this “lockflex” goes away. If I roll it open, or thumbstud flick it open, the “lockflex” is noticable. So, in the next 3 months I will see if it wears to that further solid lockup point on its own. It must also be said that, if you grip the knife tightly, the lockbar moves to that tight lockup position.

I was trying to not be long winded, but failed miserably. Haha. So in closing, the jury is still out for me on the 31. I want to love everything about it, but it may take time. I may hate it...3 months time will tell.

Thank you for letting me ramble,
Ill leave you with a photo...

Keep ‘em Sharp

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

I will add that I have a curiousity...Im wondering if the ceramic lockball is larger than the lockball in the Zaan’s and Inkosi’s.
Must find out.

 

[BD_01]

Thanks, Sharp & Fiery , I appreciate your comments!

Please give us an update down the road!

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Thanks, Sharp & Fiery , I appreciate your comments!

Please give us an update down the road!

Will do! Might need a reminder tho.

 

[jackghobbies]

Will do! Might need a reminder tho.

I'll remind you Curious about how your break-in goes. Stay well.

 

[kidcongo]

Tried all of mine, 21, 25, Inkosi and Zaan. Frame on hard table, fingers pressed against the lock bar, pressure applied to spine. All four moved and I could feel the lock bar flex upwards towards the frame. Zaan moved more than the others, 21 moved the least.

Duplicates my experience.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Third day finished with the 31 folks...and I am going to have to change my answer...I know framelocks have lockflex...but what concerns me on the 31, is that the “flex” on my 31 allows the blade to come off the stop pin. There is an audible click.
I did some light taps on the spine on my knee, because quite frankly, the flex does not instil a lot of confidence.
As someone posted earlier, CRK said that this flex was brought up in the proto phase, and deemed acceptable. Since when is this acceptable in a CRK?! If it was any other brand, I would have sent it back already.

Why oh why, did they have to change the lock interface? Sebenza lovers loved the lockup and the position of the pocket clip.
Inkosi owners love the lockup (which is apparently solid), and love the pocket clip position. So why did they mash the two together?

I just don’t know...

 

[halden.doerge]

Third day finished with the 31 folks...and I am going to have to change my answer...I know framelocks have lockflex...but what concerns me on the 31, is that the “flex” on my 31 allows the blade to come off the stop pin. There is an audible click.
I did some light taps on the spine on my knee, because quite frankly, the flex does not instil a lot of confidence.
As someone posted earlier, CRK said that this flex was brought up in the proto phase, and deemed acceptable. Since when is this acceptable in a CRK?! If it was any other brand, I would have sent it back already.

Why oh why, did they have to change the lock interface? Sebenza lovers loved the lockup and the position of the pocket clip.
Inkosi owners love the lockup (which is apparently solid), and love the pocket clip position. So why did they mash the two together?

I just don’t know...

See this is interesting. Try as I might (and like, I lift and stuff), I cannot get lockflex that remotely resembles these kinds of descriptions. I have a plain jane large 31, and damn if it isn't as solid as any 21 or Inkosi I've owned.

So anyways, it's got me thinking, and this could be totally wrong, but I feel like all of the reports I've heard from people online about significant lock flex have been on the inlaid models. Makes me wonder if somehow that is factor, or it was a problem that was more pronounced in that run or something. I don't know.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

If anyone has a PJ 31, could you post a photo of the pivot area on the lockside? So the ceramic ball is visible. Closed position please.
halden.doerge

 

[halden.doerge]

Like at?

 

[rileybassman1]

So I just got my 31 micarta inlay today and there is a slight amount of what I would call lock rock... I can do the table thing everyone talks about... to me that is flex and other framlocks do that as well. I had an inkosi and to me, for better or worse, the 31 feels just like the inkosi did. To be fair... it takes a pretty substantial amount of pressure to get this to happen... and frankly most of my other knifes will exhibit something with that much pressure... maybe except my shiros and maybe my benchmade anthem.

I will say that my 31 exhibits the slightest amount of side to side play as well - even with the pivot quite tight... and is ever so slightly off center. I really want to like it and will probably give it a shot for awhile. It doesn't scare me... it still feels more substantial then most other folders and seems like it will accomplish any task a folder should be tasked with.

 

[kidcongo]

Third day finished with the 31 folks...and I am going to have to change my answer...I know framelocks have lockflex...but what concerns me on the 31, is that the “flex” on my 31 allows the blade to come off the stop pin. There is an audible click.
I did some light taps on the spine on my knee, because quite frankly, the flex does not instil a lot of confidence.
As someone posted earlier, CRK said that this flex was brought up in the proto phase, and deemed acceptable. Since when is this acceptable in a CRK?! If it was any other brand, I would have sent it back already.

Why oh why, did they have to change the lock interface? Sebenza lovers loved the lockup and the position of the pocket clip.
Inkosi owners love the lockup (which is apparently solid), and love the pocket clip position. So why did they mash the two together?

I just don’t know...

If you have flexed the lock bar, the blade is off the stop pin, on all knives. There is absolutely no way to flex a lockbar without the blade moving. If the blade moves, at all, it’s off the stop pin. That’s just basic physics and geometry. We can argue which knife flexes most easily, but let’s not kid ourselves. When you flex the lock bar on an Umnumzaan, or a 21, the blade is off the stop pin.

 

[BD_01]

Sharp & Fiery , rileybassman1 , thank you for posting your impressions.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

If you have flexed the lock bar, the blade is off the stop pin, on all knives. There is absolutely no way to flex a lockbar without the blade moving. If the blade moves, at all, it’s off the stop pin. That’s just basic physics and geometry. We can argue which knife flexes most easily, but let’s not kid ourselves. When you flex the lock bar on an Umnumzaan, or a 21, the blade is off the stop pin.

This is correct/incorrect. Except for the Umnum. The zaan rests on “orings” that have some give themselves, not a stop pin.
On the 21 you have a single point of contact on the lockbar and when you flex the lockbar, the blade tang and lockbar face connect and the blade is still touching the stop pin.

 

[kidcongo]

This is correct/incorrect. Except for the Umnum. The zaan rests on “orings” that have some give themselves, not a stop pin.
On the 21 you have a single point of contact on the lockbar and when you flex the lockbar, the blade tang and lockbar face connect and the blade is still touching the stop pin.

I beg to differ. The o-rings on an umnum only buffer the closing. When the knife is locked, it’s steel against Ti, if you look at it. At least on my umnumzaan.

You cannot apply pressure to any blade, that’s causes lock bar movement, without it also rotating. That’s just normal physics. If you are pushing on the spine, and the lock bar is moving, you are rotating the blade off the stop pin, in all cases, no exceptions.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

So here is what i see...I will be talking about this gap here that Ive circled in the photo.


Framelocks are strong because they have three points of contact, the stop pin, the pivot, and the lockface. The reason that framelocks work is because the whole face does not contact the blade...just a single point. So when pushing the blade spine on the 21, it takes up the microscopic “gap” in the lockbar to full lockbar flat on blade flat contact.

On the 31, instead of shortening the lockbar length, to add the ceramic ball, they shortened the blade. This ceramic ball now protrudes out from the end of the lockbar 1mm to 2mm changing the shape of our “lockup triangle.” It also creates one point of contact but leaves a larger “gap” between the nonexistent flat area of the lockbar. See this photo...


So now, when you put pressure on the spine of the 31, there is no “flat” area to contact the blade, and you get serious flex which allows the blade to come off the stop pin, even more so than the 21. This troubles me.

Just to be clear...this is the direction of lockbar flex shown here...it flexes left, and springs back to right.


Now i do also have an inkosi here...the lockbar is thicker, and it does not have noticable flex.

However, the placement of the ceramic ball is different. As shown here...


On my particular 31 the ceramic ball should be closer to the blade edge(when knife is open) of the lockbar. So moved to the right of the arrow in the above picture like the inkosi.

This would negate a lot of the flex. As it would be opening up our triangle.

For me, the jury is still out regarding lock failure. Im hoping not to find out during use, and im not willing to push my new “expensive” 31 to failure in a test. Haha.

I just always relate “bank vault” lockup to the CRK sebenza...and this is anything but that. I think that disappoints me more than anything.
Since Chris was pushed out, they have managed to mess up the first 100 or so Impinda’s, and now have a non “bank vault” Sebenza 31.

Honestly, if it was any other company, and I wasnt so curious to how the 31 will hold up, I woulda returned it and posted a very unhappy post.

It is different than “lockrock” that is for sure. Because lockrock is when the lockbar wont fully engage leaving gap between the “point” and the blade tang, or when the “point” contacts the tang but slips outward easily, creating audible clicks when wiggling the blade up and down. The sound is from the blade hitting the lockbar and then hitting the stop pin.
Lockflex is when the “point” of the lockbar (the ceramic ball in this case) never leaves the blade tang (always has contact), but flexes with lockbar. The lockflex rock on the 31 is so severe that the blade comes away from the stop pin. That is what worries me.

If I have any of my lock geometry fundamentals wrong, and someone with experience building framelocks can correct me. I am open to that.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

I beg to differ. The o-rings on an umnum only buffer the closing. When the knife is locked, it’s steel against steel, if you look at it. At least on my umnumzaan.

You cannot apply pressure to any blade, that’s causes lock bar movement, without it also rotating. That’s just normal physics. If you are pushing on the spine, and the lock bar is moving, you are rotating the blade, in all cases, no exceptions.

Just for clarities sake...my Zaan is solid. No lockflex without a TON of pressure on the blade.
My 31, I can flex the lockbar without the use of a table. Just hold the handle and grip the tip of the blade, and move it up and down.

 

[353]

So here is what i see...I will be talking about this gap here that Ive circled in the photo.
View attachment 1319361

Framelocks are strong because they have three points of contact, the stop pin, the pivot, and the lockface. The reason that framelocks work is because the whole face does not contact the blade...just a single point. So when pushing the blade spine on the 21, it takes up the microscopic “gap” in the lockbar to full lockbar flat on blade flat contact.

On the 31, instead of shortening the lockbar length, to add the ceramic ball, they shortened the blade. This ceramic ball now protrudes out from the end of the lockbar 1mm to 2mm changing the shape of our “lockup triangle.” It also creates one point of contact but leaves a larger “gap” between the nonexistent flat area of the lockbar. See this photo...
View attachment 1319360

So now, when you put pressure on the spine of the 31, there is no “flat” area to contact the blade, and you get serious flex which allows the blade to come off the stop pin, even more so than the 21. This troubles me.

Just to be clear...this is the direction of lockbar flex shown here...it flexes left, and springs back to right.
View attachment 1319363

Now i do also have an inkosi here...the lockbar is thicker, and it does not have noticable flex.

However, the placement of the ceramic ball is different. As shown here...
View attachment 1319362

On my particular 31 the ceramic ball should be closer to the blade edge(when knife is open) of the lockbar. So moved to the right of the arrow in the above picture like the inkosi.

This would negate a lot of the flex. As it would be opening up our triangle.

For me, the jury is still out regarding lock failure. Im hoping not to find out during use, and im not willing to push my new “expensive” 31 to failure in a test. Haha.

I just always relate “bank vault” lockup to the CRK sebenza...and this is anything but that. I think that disappoints me more than anything.
Since Chris was pushed out, they have managed to mess up the first 100 or so Impinda’s, and now have a non “bank vault” Sebenza 31.

Honestly, if it was any other company, and I wasnt so curious to how the 31 will hold up, I woulda returned it and posted a very unhappy post.

It is different than “lockrock” that is for sure. Because lockrock is when the lockbar wont fully engage leaving gap between the “point” and the blade tang, or when the “point” contacts the tang but slips outward easily, creating audible clicks when wiggling the blade up and down. The sound is from the blade hitting the lockbar and then hitting the stop pin.
Lockflex is when the “point” of the lockbar (the ceramic ball in this case) never leaves the blade tang (always has contact), but flexes with lockbar. The lockflex rock on the 31 is so severe that the blade comes away from the stop pin. That is what worries me.

If I have any of my lock geometry fundamentals wrong, and someone with experience building framelocks can correct me. I am open to that.

Thank you, I really appreciate your objective view on this.

A lot off guys would be biased due to the fact that they spent the cash or simply because of fandom to CRK.

I would love to check this out for myself, but I'm not gonna drop 500$ to find out. My original plan was to get a small 31 insingo when/if they got out, but it's not gonna happen now.

This needs to be adressed by CRK ASAP IMO.