Sebenza 31 Lock Rock?!

Yes, this.

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B) simplified process because the ceramic detent ball interface doesn't require the blade tang to be finessed to fit the lockbar cut; Sebenza 21 (and earlier) tangs are polished and Spyderco ceramic stoned to fit; Inkosis/Umnumzaans/31s are just taken right out of the CNC (or whatever they cut their blades with).
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I don't understand why the ball interface would change the need for fitment. In both cases, Sebenza 21 construction and ceramic ball lock construction, they build handles (once with a treated ti lock face, once with a ceramic ball), blades and then try to fit them together. Machining always happens not to exact measurements, but within tolerances. As a result, there are variations in lockup, in both construction variants. It makes sense to design the tolerances so that the lockup is at most at the upper bound of their target percentage, or earlier. If at assembly it turns out to be too early, they take material off the lock face. Why would the ceramic ball change that?

I have a large Inkosi where the lock face seems to have the same stone wash finish as the rest of the blade. Maybe in this case they assembled it and lockup was good right away. My small Inkosi has relatively rough grind marks on the lock face. Maybe for this they had to take material off the lock face to fit the lockup.
 
I don't understand why the ball interface would change the need for fitment. In both cases, Sebenza 21 construction and ceramic ball lock construction, they build handles (once with a treated ti lock face, once with a ceramic ball), blades and then try to fit them together. Machining always happens not to exact measurements, but within tolerances. As a result, there are variations in lockup, in both construction variants. It makes sense to design the tolerances so that the lockup is at most at the upper bound of their target percentage, or earlier. If at assembly it turns out to be too early, they take material off the lock face. Why would the ceramic ball change that?

I have a large Inkosi where the lock face seems to have the same stone wash finish as the rest of the blade. Maybe in this case they assembled it and lockup was good right away. My small Inkosi has relatively rough grind marks on the lock face. Maybe for this they had to take material off the lock face to fit the lockup.

Fair point! I was thinking because the ceramic ball was much harder (97 vs 59-60 Rockwell), if it was close enough, the ceramic ball can make it happen (like a much harder version of a rubber gasket fit), vs the heat treated lockbar, which needs more help. So certainly, some blade tangs will need a bit of belt grinding, but you also have an Inkosi in hand that they didn't need to finesse at all. Any percentage of no additional work required is time saved in production.

Out of curiosity, are your Inkosis pretty different birthdate-wise? I recall they started with finished tangs and even grinding in a wear track for the ball to nest into. Then they found it was irrelevant to lockup/wear and a waste of work.
 
Inkosis/Umnumzaans/31s are just taken right out of the CNC (or whatever they cut their blades with).

That’s not really how it works. The 21 and previous was an older lock interface design, one that CRK always executed very well. The ceramic ball is a new (if you call ten years new) lock interface design and has over many years proven to be at minimum just as good. If there are manufacturing improvements that’s progress.

To be clear, no one takes blades right off a machine and fits it to the knife. I’m sure CRK would be happy to give you a ship tour in the future. The way they make knives is no great secret.
 
The blade and lockbar have both worn at this point, so you'll need a new lock and new blade. And since you're putting a bunch of new stuff in there, new washers, pivot bushing, and stop pin. This means the only thing "saved" is the front handle.

The ceramic ball makes the blade a true consumable. The ceramic ball won't wear and you can throw new blades at forever. I think the 31 is another small incremental step. What was wrong with the Regular, Classic, or P? Objectively they all worked great, but CRK is a company that continues to move forward. I'm keenly interested in seeing what changes come on the Sebenza 41.
With the design of the 21, if your lock moved over 100%, they had the ability to simply fit a stop pin sleeve of a slightly larger diameter, which would correct the issue. This was one of the reasons for two-layer stop pin in a 21.

No new blade or slabs required to correct too “deep” of a lockup. This was a facet of CRKs magical “tuning” where they could fix/adjust a customers 21.

I am not sure if they retained the stop pin sleeve design on the 31. Sounds like maybe not.
 
That’s not really how it works. The 21 and previous was an older lock interface design, one that CRK always executed very well. The ceramic ball is a new (if you call ten years new) lock interface design and has over many years proven to be at minimum just as good. If there are manufacturing improvements that’s progress.

To be clear, no one takes blades right off a machine and fits it to the knife. I’m sure CRK would be happy to give you a ship tour in the future. The way they make knives is no great secret.

Acknowledged. There's some speculative exaggeration in my post (I forgot that they stonewash after CNC too :)). I've seen a few photos of Inkosis with stonewash finish on their tangs. Whether that's due to aftermarket spa treatment or hot out of the mixer, I cannot say. Either way, I've never seen any 21s or earlier without a ground and polished finish to mate to the lockbar.

I'd love a shop tour one day!
 
I am not sure if they retained the stop pin sleeve design on the 31. Sounds like maybe not.

There's a picture in another 31 thread of the new stop pin design. No sleeve; the stop pin is a shouldered double female hardened 416 stainless component with two shorter screws. All other internal components of the 31 (non blade/detent related) are the same.

EDIT:
They are not the same as the 21. They are one piece and have two shorter screws.
View attachment 1303291
 
With the design of the 21, if your lock moved over 100%, they had the ability to simply fit a stop pin sleeve of a slightly larger diameter, which would correct the issue. This was one of the reasons for two-layer stop pin in a 21.

No new blade or slabs required to correct too “deep” of a lockup. This was a facet of CRKs magical “tuning” where they could fix/adjust a customers 21.

But this wouldn't actually fix the issue. It might "fix" the symptom (100% lock arm coverage) but it's going to alter the geometry of the interface and change how the blade rests when closed, because the stop pin doubles as the blade stop. This is going to alter the where the detent ball falls and now the detent is going to be either weak or nonexistent. As far as I'm aware CRK never officially fitted larger stop pin sleeves either.

In my book, once two parts have worn equally together (for however long that takes, 20 years on a Sebenza?) it's done and you should replace the parts.
 
There's a picture in another 31 thread of the new stop pin design. No sleeve; the stop pin is a shouldered double female hardened 416 stainless component with two shorter screws. All other internal components of the 31 (non blade/detent related) are the same.

EDIT:

It might be worth mentioning that can (and will) fit this same solid stop pin on 21s if you want/need. It's an interchangeable upgrade.
 
I've taken some time to work with (play with) my two 31s (small PJ and small micarta). As I stated in my previous post both had side to side blade play, and lock rock. The lock rock on the micarta version was much less than the PJ, but still noticeable. On the micarta, if I tightened the pivot all the way the blade was extremely stiff, virtually unusable. It behaved much like an Inkosi. On the PJ, tightening the main pivot had no affect on the action , but lateral blade play was always present. Given the pivot bushing used in the Sebenza I have never experienced these problems in the past with my 21s. Needless to say, this left me frustrated, and confused. After disassembling and reassembling both knives multiple times I discovered what I believe is a solution (or work around).

Theoretically the way you reassemble a Sebansa shouldn't impact its performance. However, with the 3, this does not seem to be the case.

On my 21s, I have always reassembled using the procedure outlined on CRK's web site.

Assemble the handles (leaving the stop pin and rear screws loose)
Slide in the blade
Insert the pivot and screw
Close the knife
Tighten the three screws

The order in which the screws were tightened has never been important. Following this procedure on the 31 resulted in inconsistencies in action and blade play. Yesterday, I assembled my 31s as follows:

Assemble the handles (leaving the stop pin screw and rear screw loose)
Slide in the blade
Insert the pivot and screw
*Open the knife (this is important)
*Depress the lock bar so there is no pressure on the blade (this is also important)
*Tighten the pivot screw all the way
*Tighten the stop screw and rear screws just until snug (do not over tighten)
Close blade

Opening the knife first and tightening down the screws in this order has consistently resulted in buttery smooth “Sebenza” like action, and no lateral blade play.

“Lock Rock” however is still present in both knives, but the PJ seems better than before. I no longer feel the “pinging” or “clicking” sensation with the “lock rock”. The blade however still moves enough to lose contact with the stop pin. (by “lock rock” I’m not talking about the table top test. I'm holding the knife in hand and placing relatively little pressure on the spine.)

My unscientific and unproven theory:
I feel like the new stop pin design is somehow throwing things off in terms of action. Tightening the stop pin and rear screw first, followed by the main pivot seems to throw the knife out of true. Possibly introducing tension and a warp in the handle. The result is tighter action, or blade play, depending on how tight the pivot is. However, leaving the two body screws loose and opening the knife. Then removing lock bar pressure, then tightening the main pivot, seems to line things back up. I'm then careful not to over tighten the stop pin or body screws as to not introduce extra tension or a warp into the handle. As far as “Lock Rock” is concerned, this procedure might help, but certainly doesn't fix it. Again, just my thoughts and very unscientific theory.
 
N Nazo it sounds like one or both of your knives has a problem. There shouldn't be play, and the bushing should prevent the action from changing based on pivot tightness. There shouldn't be any difference of how you assemble the knife.
 
Got my Small Inkosi today. And it has no play at all. My other Inkosi 3years old had a bit of play and it disappeared after use. Very happy with it!
 
Got my Small Inkosi today. And it has no play at all. My other Inkosi 3years old had a bit of play and it disappeared after use. Very happy with it!

Now that you mention it - I had an Umnumzaan one time that seemed to "slip" a little at first. I messaged @halden.doerge
about it because he had an Umnumzaan. He recommended using it and letting the ball settle into place. 2 weeks later it was rock solid. Almost like it had to "break in".
 
I have a quick PSA - hope it doesn’t get buried in long thread.

I received my L 31 last week. I opened it up and reported no lock rock. It was as solid as all of my other large CRK’s. Then I took it apart to remove lanyard and lanyard pin. After that, I was starting to notice the wiggle and clicking. I wasn’t sure if I just missed it during new knife bliss, if it developed some play with use, or if it was a bad reassembly.

I did another take down today, cleaned, and tightened everything up. I mean everything - even the Back side of the shouldered stop pin. It is once again rock solid.

Just something to think about if you are having issues.
 
I have a quick PSA - hope it doesn’t get buried in long thread.

I received my L 31 last week. I opened it up and reported no lock rock. It was as solid as all of my other large CRK’s. Then I took it apart to remove lanyard and lanyard pin. After that, I was starting to notice the wiggle and clicking. I wasn’t sure if I just missed it during new knife bliss, if it developed some play with use, or if it was a bad reassembly.

I did another take down today, cleaned, and tightened everything up. I mean everything - even the Back side of the shouldered stop pin. It is once again rock solid.

Just something to think about if you are having issues.

Right on! L31 PJ or Inlay?
 
I saved up cash to pick up a new 31. Dropped in to see what people were thinking about their new 31's and saw this thread. It's a shame but I'll have to hold off on purchasing one right now until they sort this out.
I have an Umnumzaan, small PJ Inkosi, small inlay 21 and a large PJ 21. None have "lock rock". And I wouldn't be happy with them if they did. It's unacceptable in a knife of this quality and cost IMHO.
I sincerely hope CRK figures it out and doesn't consider it a feature of the new model. As soon as they have a handle on the issue, I'll purchase a new micarta inlay 31.
 
So CRK contacted me a few days back after I asked a few questions pertaining to the lockup on the 31. They said it's normal... And all ceramic ball interfaces will have varying degrees of lock flex.

I sent a video to them of the lock rock/clicking and haven't heard back yet... Not super stoked with their response honestly.

I bought a 21 natural micrata off the classifieds ... I'll report some of the comparisons when it gets here... But there's a good chance the 31 will be headed to the classifieds soon...
 
So CRK contacted me a few days back after I asked a few questions pertaining to the lockup on the 31. They said it's normal... And all ceramic ball interfaces will have varying degrees of lock flex.

I sent a video to them of the lock rock/clicking and haven't heard back yet... Not super stoked with their response honestly.

I bought a 21 natural micrata off the classifieds ... I'll report some of the comparisons when it gets here... But there's a good chance the 31 will be headed to the classifieds soon...

Thats a bummer. Since I found this thread, I have been trying to remember what all the inkosi’s I had felt like. And I cannot honestly say they did or did not have this issue. I checked out my small 21 the other day and it does not display this behavior. I can understand that the ceramic ball lockup could potentially have some slip/rock/movement though.
 
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Free to do what you want, but I’ll rehash my comment above. My L31 had the clicking and lock rock. Not sure if it came out of box that way or if it happened after my first take down when I removed the lanyard.

Aside - I have a suspicion that quite a few of us who experienced the bad lock rock also took down our knives within the first 10 minutes of receipt.

To be clear, the clicking was so bad, I could hold the knife in a pretty standard grip, and if I choked my thumb up towards the tip, I could click the blade forward with a bit of pressure. It was not a flex, it was an audible click.

A little part of me knew this couldn’t be right. You know how these things are built. Like when you see a Sebenza that isn’t centered, you know someone pinched a washer...

So I retraced my steps, did another takedown, and tightened up every piece during reassembly. First the stand off near the lanyard hole. Completely tightened. Then both screws on the stop pin. Completely tightened. Then I slid the blade and bushing/washers into the frame - completely tightened. Zero lock rock. Zero click. A few days later with an almost obsessive amount of rechecking for lock rock, and still nothing - it is perfect.

I really can’t believe this was a matter of break in. I’ve had the knife for a week. The lock rock was complete user error in my end - I think you may find the same to be true for you. Either way, please try my suggestion and report some feedback.
 
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