Sebenza

[Ajack60]

I've read all the posts in this thread. It appears most all the points have been covered. Very interesting read as well as very informational. Not as many troll/idiot responses as in some of the other threads concerning the testing of CS to other brands.

My take on these testing videos are pretty much in line with most responses already stated, "completely useless"

The one thing that pisses me off more than anything else, is the message CS is sending out with these asinine tests. And that is, that myself/you and anyone else that owns a knife is stupid and an idiot.
That the knife in my/your pocket right now is not a good choice.

I feel that my choice in the knives I own, suits my day to day chores and whichever knife I chose to EDC will serve the needs for what I do and will be like a friend and not fail me.
To date, they all have been the best of friends.

I didn't watch the video because how many frame locks do you need to test to prove your lock is superior???? IMO, just one. A frame lock is a frame lock.
I don't think anyone can dispute the strength of CS locks. That's been proven and hooray!!!!! for Cold Steel.
However, don't take the one thing you got going for you and try to shove it down my throat and try to make me believe it's the best thing since sliced bread. Really????

There's just so many things that go into a well balanced knife, ergo's, blade shape, blade steel, material, blade geometry and all the other little things that are discussed here on BFC that makes
sense when someone is wanting a style of knife that will fit they're needs.

I'm just not very supportive of any company that uses deceptive means to push their products.

 

[Comeuppance]

They're a company trying to increase sales by directly comparing their products to those by other brands. They're respectful of the other products, make no exaggerated claims, and are not involving any meat boots or pig heads.

I don't see any of that as dishonest or misleading. They're literally showing you a direct physical comparison of lock strength. Any implications of "thus their knives are inferior and ours are inherently better as cutting tools" is a product of your own imagination / perception / bias.

 

[Comeuppance]

If Ford made a series of videos showing their crash tests vs Chevy products, would there be a 10-page thread accusing Ford of being deceptive or misleading? No. They're showing a direct comparison of a physical property of their product design.

They're not saying you'll lose fingers with other brands, or that they won't cut as well, or anything but "Our lock is stronger."

 

[bld522]

They don't just say their lock is stronger. They say they make the strongest folders on the planet. And I say, prove it. Test it against the RAO and then we'll see.

 

[stabman]

They don't just say their lock is stronger. They say they make the strongest folders on the planet. And I say, prove it. Test it against the RAO and then we'll see.

I'm waiting for the Battle Horse Knives Tree Frog versus the Cold Steel Finn Wolf test.
Which one is stronger? Which ones works better for "bushcraftyness"?

Pretty sure the only thing things the Finn Wolf would win at is:
1) One-hand opening
2) It's WAY cheaper
3) Has pocket clip.

 

[EricV]

If Ford made a series of videos showing their crash tests vs Chevy products, would there be a 10-page thread accusing Ford of being deceptive or misleading? No. They're showing a direct comparison of a physical property of their product design.

They're not saying you'll lose fingers with other brands, or that they won't cut as well, or anything but "Our lock is stronger."

There surely would be a 10 page thread. This is more like dodge posting an add of a hellcat challenger beating a Shelby gt350r in a 1/4 mile drag race. Sure the challenger would be faster for that but throw a corner at it and the outcome changes immediately, it's an apples/oranges debate done purely for the people who want to say my $60 folder is better than that $300 POS. These lock strength threads are all the same.

 

[Sosa]

As a guy who never pulled the trigger on a Seb I can't help but think of them differently now. A somewhat fragile eccentric knife.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I asked the question and you are avoiding answering..CRK could probably tell us, but I doubt they would.

"As designed" isn't meaningless wordplay,..It's a functional design term..I use it at work as do many of the engineers I work with.
I consider "as designed" to mean that it's a cutting tool, with force applied in the direction that makes sense to cut

For your choice in whittling tools, what you use probably makes sense..It's functional for you..but to say that a Sebenza would fail because of your experience with another framelock is pretty silly.
It's simply your choice..Nothing more or nothing less,..It still doesn't mean anything when it comes to calling any CRK unsafe as that is a factor of the user as much as the maker/manufacturer.

For what it's worth, a knife, by definition..isn't safe. Place one in the hands of someone who loses respect for it, and they will get hurt.

How so? What makes the Sebenza different? Is it somehow not subject to the same forces at play? It's a weakness inherent in the design of the framelock. A weakness many other locks simply don't have.

 

[stabman]

As a guy who never pulled the trigger on a Seb I can't help but think of them differently now. A somewhat fragile eccentric knife.

Don't be so quick to change your mind.
The lock should be much the same as on the Umnumzaan and I have used mine for tasks some would consider stupid or abusive...and it has held up 100% fine. :thumbup:

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Disclosure: I am a happy owner of several CS products to include a gaggle of AUS-8 Voyagers in different sizes and iterations.

I am a fan of Rolex watches. I have one particular watch, a 20+ year old GMT Master II (ref. 16710), that has been with me through thick and thin ... seriously more than one death defying ordeal - but that sucker keeps on ticking and smiles back at me every time I look at it. It's my go-to beater that goes hunting, fishing, diving and whatever else I dare my body and it to endure. Now, if I took that beloved old watch and used it to bang nails with or use as a jack plate while Jeeping ... I'll betcha that I might be disappointed in it and have it suffer a failure. So, I'll just keep using it as a rugged reliable watch (sufficiently water, dust and shock resistant for my applications) that provides me with a sense of quality, confidence as well as being an inanimate object that I feel connected with in a positive way. Not surprisingly, I wear that watch while carrying a Sebenza 25 after foolishly selling off my pre-Idaho regular Sebenza.

Yup. But I also hope you're not under the illusion that the Rolex is a better performer than a digital watch a fraction of the price, which can be made far more durable and will keep better time than any mechanical watch.

Honestly, I think high end mechanical watches are an excellent analogy for some of the higher end production and custom knives that you frequently see. Admiration for style, craftsmanship or tradition are excellent reasons to buy one. Pure performance, however, can frequently be matched or exceeded by much less expensive products.

 

[bhyde]

How so? What makes the Sebenza different? Is it somehow not subject to the same forces at play? It's a weakness inherent in the design of the framelock. A weakness many other locks simply don't have.

How is it the same? Do you have intimate knowledge of them? Have you owned one? How can YOU say that it will fail given the situation YOU applied?
Do all framelocks have the same thickness of scale..Same fastening points..distance between fastening points..diameter of said fastening points as well as pivot? Same blade thickness?
And if you remember, my argument with you wasn't about the framelock weakness,..It was with your statement about safety and framelocks..You do remember that..right?

 

[Ccc]

Yup. But I also hope you're not under the illusion that the Rolex is a better performer than a digital watch a fraction of the price, which can be made far more durable and will keep better time than any mechanical watch.

Honestly, I think high end mechanical watches are an excellent analogy for some of the higher end production and custom knives that you frequently see. Admiration for style, craftsmanship or tradition are excellent reasons to buy one. Pure performance, however, can frequently be matched or exceeded by much less expensive products.

I think this is right on. At this point in my life, though, I am not stocking up and collecting $15 casios. I am saving and purchasing refined products that can handle everything I will ever need to do with a watch/cutting tool.

 

[Quiet]

I'm waiting for the Battle Horse Knives Tree Frog versus the Cold Steel Finn Wolf test.
Which one is stronger? Which ones works better for "bushcraftyness"?

Pretty sure the only thing things the Finn Wolf would win at is:
1) One-hand opening
2) It's WAY cheaper
3) Has pocket clip.

As a fairly recent owner of a Finn Wolf, I will say that I wish it was bigger. I would enjoy a review of your Tree Frog when you had the time, Stab! I watched the video of them when they were being designed and found it a fairly intriguing one.

 

[stabman]

As a fairly recent owner of a Finn Wolf, I will say that I wish it was bigger. I would enjoy a review of your Tree Frog when you had the time, Stab! I watched the video of them when they were being designed and found it a fairly intriguing one.

There's this thread of quick use I managed the day after it showed up:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...Knives-Tree-Frog-the-true-bushcrafting-folder

It saw enough use to get a feel for it, and was used enough to go from shaving sharp along the whole blade, to able to cut paper (except in a few spots on the edge which didn't get used as much).

I should be able to get more review stuff done later this month; I plan on getting out for a winter camping trip sometime around Christmas, and that should give time to use and compare.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

How is it the same? Do you have intimate knowledge of them? Have you owned one? How can YOU say that it will fail given the situation YOU applied?
Do all framelocks have the same thickness of scale..Same fastening points..distance between fastening points..diameter of said fastening points as well as pivot? Same blade thickness?
And if you remember, my argument with you wasn't about the framelock weakness,..It was with your statement about safety and framelocks..You do remember that..right?

Same basic design, same forces at play to unlock it. I'm not discussing strength in the least, I'm discussing the simple fact that applying lateral torque to a framelock knife brings with it a significant risk of disengaging the lock. That's going to be true of any framelock design without exception because that's the way they're designed to operate. For an activity like whittling a simple slipjoint or friction folder is simply a safer choice than a framelock. Or one of the other lock types I mentioned, and many that I left out.

 

[Fireform]

Something is odd about this. Minus the spine bashing, which I would never do to any folder, I just put considerably more force on the lock of my 21 than the knife in that video appears to have experienced, roughly 80 pounds to the butt of the handle. To my utter lack of surprise, nothing happened. The Sebenza pocket clip bears slightly on the lockbar and provides a secondary spring holding it closed, which is another thing that helps it stay secure. Is it a perfect lock? Probably not. It's strong enough for any use I'll subject it to and then some. The knife cuts well, gets very sharp, is dead reliable and was made in the US in a safe, clean work environment.

I agree with what's been stated earlier. If seeing that video causes any fools to dump their CRKs, I'll be waiting.

 

[ursamajor]

Fist Cold Steel Test, that I couldn't have cared less to see. The Sebenza is not even remotely marketed as a hard use folder. With that, it could have a lockup weaker than a slip joint, and it would matter not to me. Strength is not the first, nor even the millionth thing that comes to my mind when thinking of a CRK folder.

It's like putting a Rolls Royce up against a Humvee for an off-roading race.

 

[ursamajor]

I just answered your question re. your request for the 4-Max vs the RAO. I am sorry if you did not like my answer, but there is no need to get cranky.

Unless you test it, you don't know that. With every Triad I have seen, the blade breaks before the lock fails. With that, the Triad does not develop much blade play, eve when it gets near critical. I would expect that the RAO will hold up (with the pin in) to the same levels as a Triad with similar blade dimensions in tests that put either negative, or side to side stress on the blade-but in positive pressure tests, the Triad will win, as the pin gives it strength in both directions, where as the pin in the RAO only supports in 1 direction.

Also, the lockup on the RAO is gong to be much more sloppy, both out of the box, and as they get tested.

There is no folding knife on the market that has a ridged a lockup as a Triad. I can clamp the blade of my Mackinac Hunter, and try it feel for some sort of blade play, and feel zero. The same goes for my other Triad Knives. Some people are cool with blade play. It feels cheap to me though.

 

[Kwon Kwang]

Unless you test it, you don't know that. With every Triad I have seen, the blade breaks before the lock fails. With that, the Triad does not develop much blade play, eve when it gets near critical. I would expect that the RAO will hold up (with the pin in) to the same levels as a Triad with similar blade dimensions in tests that put either negative, or side to side stress on the blade-but in positive pressure tests, the Triad will win, as the pin gives it strength in both directions, where as the pin in the RAO only supports in 1 direction.

Also, the lockup on the RAO is gong to be much more sloppy, both out of the box, and as they get tested.

There is no folding knife on the market that has a ridged a lockup as a Triad. I can clamp the blade of my Mackinac Hunter, and try it feel for some sort of blade play, and feel zero. The same goes for my other Triad Knives. Some people are cool with blade play. It feels cheap to me though.

Excellent post! :thumbup:

 

[stabman]

Same basic design, same forces at play to unlock it. I'm not discussing strength in the least, I'm discussing the simple fact that applying lateral torque to a framelock knife brings with it a significant risk of disengaging the lock. That's going to be true of any framelock design without exception because that's the way they're designed to operate. For an activity like whittling a simple slipjoint or friction folder is simply a safer choice than a framelock. Or one of the other lock types I mentioned, and many that I left out.

Never had that come close to happening with any of the frame-lock knives I use.
I regularly use them for wood-cutting, "whittling" tasks.
Maybe other people have odd, alien shaped fingers, or have found some idiotic way to grip knife handles where this becomes an actual thing...I suppose it's possible there are moronic mutants out there who own frame-lock knives.