Sebenza

[Kwon Kwang]

Don't forget that gripping the knife has no effect on the holding capability of the Tri-ad lock however it does provide great aid on a frame lock. (to help keep it from closing)

If Demko's tests are so 'refined and scientific' don't you think he'd realize that? I understand their lock is going to beat 99% of the competition however missing details liken this is important.

I will have to respectfully disagree.

Mr. Demko tested a number of other Ti framelocks. ZTs, while failing the tests where the Tri-Ad succeeded, did very well compared to the Sebenza and many others tested.

 

[bld522]

Most people say "my grip secures a framelock". That makes sense but in the real world I have found differently... I have done my own testing and in doing so have made a number of framelocks unlock when I didn't want them to. Everytime the lockbar simply disengaged and sprung to the unlocked position, easily pushing the meat of my fingers (that theoretically reinforce the lock up) over. Short of white knuckling my knife all the time, the notion of framelocks being reinforced by the users grip hasn't proven true for me. Now I think design plays into this a lot, a skinnier lock bar provided less surface area for my grip to reinforce and I could get a grip that seemed to hold the lockbar securely but it wasn't a natural grip I would use.

All of this of course is just in my experience. I like Coldsteel, CRK and framelocks in general still.

That's never happened to me. But then I'm admittedly a light user of folders in general. So I wouldn't ever stress my framelocks to the point of lock failure. But I'm trying to imagine what kind of force and how much of it you'd have to apply to a framelock to displace the lock during actual use. Would you mind expanding on that?

 

[ourgon]

Wouldn't it be funny if Chris Reeve responded with a fit and finish and cutting test?

It would be fun. But CTS-XHP Code4 vs Sebenza S35VN? I don't think that Sebenza can easily win such battle.

In $450 knife fit and finish should be perfect if not must be. But anyway both knives are just tools and f&f isn't most important thing. More important is safe lock.

 

[bhyde]

It's a 25+yr old design- Designed to open and close when you need it..If you don't have common sense, you are going to get hurt..anyone that doesn't have the common sense as to how a knife functions, should relegate themselves to carrying butter knives and rounded scissors.

Let's see..What shall I do with my knife today?!?!?!...Oh,..Here is a good one,..Lets spine whack something I paid alot of money for and then see how much weight it can hold?

Everyone is so surprised that a framelock will fold with so little weight- Relying on the tension of the lockbar alone mind you, but few people if any are mentioning that it's not hard to build a better lock..25 plus years later to solve a problem what isn't a problem when used as designed.

Should I get mad that I cannot hammer a door knob open with my Cold Steel in 25+ years when some nimrod DESIGNS for this?...Ummm..no, I should use the tool as it was DESIGNED to be used..

Common sense...Take the warning labels off of everything and let nature take it's course I say..

 

[bhyde]

It would be fun. But CTS-XHP Code4 vs Sebenza S35VN? I don't think that Sebenza can easily win such battle.

In $450 knife fit and finish should be perfect if not must be. But anyway both knives are just tools and f&f isn't most important thing. More important is safe lock.

Most important thing is a brain..Yes,..those are important when you use a tool

 

[bld522]

It would be fun. But CTS-XHP Code4 vs Sebenza S35VN? I don't think that Sebenza can easily win such battle.

In $450 knife fit and finish should be perfect if not must be. But anyway both knives are just tools and f&f isn't most important thing. More important is safe lock.

And I'd argue that safe use is most important. If I don't use my folder in a safe manner, I don't expect its lock to save me from myself. That's why lock type is practically meaningless to me. I use my folders safely. That way I don't have to concern myself about what kind of locks they have. And as a result, I've never personally experienced a lock failure in actual use. YMMV.

 

[AusLoX]

Why didn't he test any slip joints? Code 4 vs Sodbuster. I think the half stop on the Soddy would prove relentless

 

[kniferbro]

That's never happened to me. But then I'm admittedly a light user of folders in general. So I wouldn't ever stress my framelocks to the point of lock failure. But I'm trying to imagine what kind of force and how much of it you'd have to apply to a framelock to displace the lock during actual use. Would you mind expanding on that?

Torquing cuts in harder materials mostly, but I have performed the dreaded spine whack on some that caused the fail. Now I completely understand the implications of these extreme tests and do not fault knives that don't pass. Like I said I still like basically all knives, heh.

Grab some framelocks and hold them like you would when you are cutting. Now freeze your grip and inspect just how much your grip is touching the lock bar or how much reinforcement your hand is providing. On most of my framelocks the flesh of my fingers makes contact, but that flesh can be displaced quite a bit, enough to allow the lock to disengage. I can squeeze the knife really hard and it truly does reinforce the lock but I never am squeezing my knife like that even when hard cutting.

Just my experience, maybe I have bad framelock holding technique

 

[retzius]

I would like to see CS test their Recon 1 against an Emerson. I already know what the results would be, but the amount of angry butt-hurt would be epic and quite entertaining.

 

[bld522]

Torquing cuts in harder materials mostly, but I have performed the dreaded spine whack on some that caused the fail. Now I completely understand the implications of these extreme tests and do not fault knives that don't pass. Like I said I still like basically all knives, heh.

Grab some framelocks and hold them like you would when you are cutting. Now freeze your grip and inspect just how much your grip is touching the lock bar or how much reinforcement your hand is providing. On most of my framelocks the flesh of my fingers makes contact, but that flesh can be displaced quite a bit, enough to allow the lock to disengage. I can squeeze the knife really hard and it truly does reinforce the lock but I never am squeezing my knife like that even when hard cutting.

Just my experience, maybe I have bad framelock holding technique

No, I'd say you nailed it. But your first sentence holds the key. Would performing torque cuts in a harder material with a folder be considered safe use? Perhaps for some, but not for me. I reserve those kinds of cuts for my fixed-blade knives. And to this very day, I have never tried cutting anything with the spine of my knife. So testing a knife by applying force to it's spine is practically meaningless as far as I'm concerned. If you want to test lock strength, test it in actual use doing the kinds of things that might cause the lock to fail. Then we'll see what we're really dealing with.

 

[ourgon]

Most important thing is a brain..Yes,..those are important when you use a tool

Yes, brain is most important. Fit and finish like in Swiss watch in simple tool which knife is, is the least important. Leatherman or Emerson tools for example don't have f&f like Sebenza and they serve as tools very good. BTW I've Emerson for now in my pocket almost month without rotation.

 

[bhyde]

Yes, brain is most important. Fit and finish like in Swiss watch in simple tool which knife is, is the least important. Leatherman or Emerson tools for example don't have f&f like Sebenza and they serve as tools very good. BTW I've Emerson for now in my pocket almost month without rotation.

As long as they serve there intended purpose,..even a, dare I say it, jarbenza will work.

These tests are a publicity stunt..Nothing more and nothing less

Everyone can feel better about opening their envelopes after working long days..

 

[bld522]

These tests are a publicity stunt..Nothing more and nothing less

Yep. They're little more than mall-ninja merchandising as far as I'm concerned. The only thing more humorous than the tests themselves is the testimony of people who are actually persuaded by them.

 

[fetzer85]

I will have to respectfully disagree.

Mr. Demko tested a number of other Ti framelocks. ZTs, while failing the tests where the Tri-Ad succeeded, did very well compared to the Sebenza and many others tested.

LOL, doing them all wrong doesn't make it any more legit.

 

[DngrRuss1]

So, I did a little GoogleFu and found this site:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23849364
The source is the National Institute of Health and gives some cursory statistical analysis.

The survey of knife-related injuries from 1990 to 2008 showed that of the over 8,250,000 injuries, most (47%) were caused by folding knives, and most of the injuries (66%) were to the fingers/thumb.

The NIH conclusion is that knife manufacturers should make safer designs.

I know the "proper use" argument here has some validity to it, but when a manufacturer is stepping up to the plate to make a product that has a blatant, inherent weakness- in this case, a folding mechanism- as safe as possible for EVERYONE, not just the experienced knife user, I do not understand the venom issued against them for taking such action. Yes, a knife should be used properly, but it often isn't. So, should the manufacturer jus say Too Bad, So Sad... you didn't use it properly, or try to make it safer to use?

 

[Insipid Moniker]

The harder you use a knife the harder the grip. In the frame locks case it adds a lot to lock strength. The stronger grip you have would factor in as well.

I don't find this to be true at all. Squeezing a knife, the kind of force that would reinforce a framelock, will increase hand fatigue and steal power from your cut. I have owned knives that I felt the need to squeeze during difficult cuts, but I tend to get rid of them pretty quickly. Good ergonomics should allow you to focus your strength in the direction you're cutting, not in towards the handle.

 

[bld522]

LOL, doing them all wrong doesn't make it any more legit.

I'll see you and raise you one . . . doing them AT ALL doesn't make them legit . . . except perhaps in the minds of the mall-ninja warriors they're geared at influencing. If anything, I'd argue that they actually send the wrong message by giving people the idea that a lock can prevent them from injuring themselves if they don't use their folders in a safe manner.

 

[fetzer85]

I don't find this to be true at all. Squeezing a knife, the kind of force that would reinforce a framelock, will increase hand fatigue and steal power from your cut. I have owned knives that I felt the need to squeeze during difficult cuts, but I tend to get rid of them pretty quickly. Good ergonomics should allow you to focus your strength in the direction you're cutting, not in towards the handle.

Ehh...grip strength comes mainly from the forearm and 'push' strength (getting through a cut) would be more bicep/shoulder/back. I do understand what you're saying though. I'd say a death grip would probably only arise for me under a self defense situation. (which is usually not even on my radar so)

 

[fetzer85]

I'll see you and raise you one . . . doing them AT ALL doesn't make them legit . . . except perhaps in the minds of the mall-ninja warriors they're geared at influencing. If anything, I'd argue that they actually send the wrong message by giving people the idea that a lock can prevent them from injuring themselves if they don't use their folders in a safe manner.

Yeah, every time these tests are discussed here I find myself shaking my head. I don't believe Cold Steel makes bad knives however these videos are full of false pretense.

 

[bhyde]

So, I did a little GoogleFu and found this site:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23849364
The source is the National Institute of Health and gives some cursory statistical analysis.

The survey of knife-related injuries from 1990 to 2008 showed that of the over 8,250,000 injuries, most (47%) were caused by folding knives, and most of the injuries (66%) were to the fingers/thumb.

The NIH conclusion is that knife manufacturers should make safer designs.

I know the "proper use" argument here has some validity to it, but when a manufacturer is stepping up to the plate to make a product that has a blatant, inherent weakness- in this case, a folding mechanism- as safe as possible for EVERYONE, not just the experienced knife user, I do not understand the venom issued against them for taking such action. Yes, a knife should be used properly, but it often isn't. So, should the manufacturer jus say Too Bad, So Sad... you didn't use it properly, or try to make it safer to use?

Read my sig and you will find all the answers you need to this post..