Snobbery & does "Handmade" belong

This is an interesting thread. I'd like to offer a few comments:

  1. There is no name you can give a forum or sub-forum that will work 100%. The reason for a more general name for a sub-forum is to encourage participation. If the name and the focus are too narrow, I think the topic would get boring pretty fast.
  2. Custom -vs- Handmade -vs- Customized -vs- Other labels, No name covers everything. Why not focus less on what something is called, and just keep making things that are new, different and creative?
  3. Snobs? Collectors being called names? Makers being called names? Come on guys. We have better things to do than call one another names and argue about things that really don't matter.
  4. The level of sophistication and knowledge that exists with the people who participate in this forum, and others, is very high. The mixture of different kinds of people is also very broad. IMHO that is a good thing. From a knowledgeable and varied group come new ideas and innovation.
  5. People here know what they are looking at. You folks are not stupid. If you are a buyer, you know what you want and like. If you are a maker, you know what you are doing at this stage in your career. You have to trust yourself and trust the others to be decent here. If something is not in line, let the mods do their work. It's what they are here for.
  6. Don't let people get you involved in discussions that result in name calling or in no-action. Let's make more, show more, discuss more, buy more and sell more. We can talk a subject to death, or we can do things that make the talking irrelevant.
  7. The best thing we can all do, is good work. Let's try that.

IMHO

and as always..............

Keep Care,

Pappy
 
Back to the original question, "Should this forum be called " Custom Knives" and the handmade part just be left out?"
No.
 
Pappy: Great synopsis.

Karl: For me, no. Handmade and Custom are two generic and loosely-defined terms. Both provide distinctions, and at the same time nebulous definitions.

Discussions about these knives are topical and often are parallel to the complexity of pieces being discussed.

Examples: A three piece custom knife with a straight tang has little to discuss. A folder with bearings and a unique lock and some CNC machining and rare inlays now adds complexity and gets more air time.

That's just the way it is.

Coop
 
People can become easily confused when being around others who have honed their tastes and observation skills to the point that they are only interested in a few, upscale things.


I would imagine there is a parallel in every hobby, from stamps to coins to Christmas ornaments.........the longer one stays in the hobby, and the more time one spends in it, the more particular they become in their tastes.

It looks like snobbery to the uninformed, but it is simply narrowing your focus down to what you really like.

People who do not understand this principle are ignorant (excuse the label!!!) and its easy for them to label others with an unpleasant adjective!:o
 
Magnus Axelson said:
Anyone...?

Regards
/Magnus
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Hey Magnus, I wouldn't worry about that. You're making fine knives, and they speak for themselves. Nice website also. Who needs definitions anyway, we need knives!:thumbup:

Kind regards,

Jos
 
Custom is handmade and handmade is custom. If we argue differently, THEN perhaps we could be accused of snobbery.
 
Magnus, (great name!)
I like the style of your webscript. Did you ever think, "handcrafted".. i like that, ..maybe better?

Back on track: "Hand made" is a more traditional term, in my opinion. "Handmade" hearkens the old way, the tradition. A cobbler making shoes in a village.

"Custom" didn't become the popular term until when, 1970s-80s? If you like tradition, or favor the newer -

The first i know of who stamped "Handmade" was Scagel. One might argue, a custom knife is one stamped "custom". Furthermore, it is useless to debate.

Kieth, do you agree?
David
 
Jos said:
Hey Magnus, I wouldn't worry about that. You're making fine knives, and they speak for themselves. Nice website also. Who needs definitions anyway, we need knives!:thumbup:

Kind regards,

Jos
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2knife said:
Magnus, (great name!)
I like the style of your webscript. Did you ever think, "handcrafted".. i like that, ..maybe better?

Back on track: "Hand made" is a more traditional term, in my opinion. "Handmade" hearkens the old way, the tradition. A cobbler making shoes in a village.

"Custom" didn't become the popular term until when, 1970s-80s? If you like tradition, or favor the newer -

The first i know of who stamped "Handmade" was Scagel. One might argue, a custom knife is one stamped "custom". Furthermore, it is useless to debate.

Kieth, do you agree?
David
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Thank you guys, very appreciated indeed!

I will leave it as is for now and perhaps change it when times comes to update.

Regards
/Magnus
 
tom mayo said:
I would imagine there is a parallel in every hobby, from stamps to coins to Christmas ornaments.........the longer one stays in the hobby, and the more time one spends in it, the more particular they become in their tastes.
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A big thumbs up to the Maker, for keeping my interests about as far from Christmas ornament collecting as possible. Sounds snobby, but...
:)
 
It appears this thread has gone on the journey of defining handmade versus custom. That was not my original intent, but I will attempt to give my personal definition of the two.

I think that custom knives can be made by processes other than "handmade". The more that CAD-CAM/CNC is used, the less a knife is handmade. That doesn't mean that it isn't custom, but it sure as heck isn't handmade. As far as I'm concerned, any tool that is used where either it, or the material being worked on is held in the hand, that's handmade. That includes power tools. Many knives are made by a combination of being handmade and being produced by automation.

What I was trying to get at earlier had nothing to do with how a custom knife was made. That's irrelevant. The fact is though, there are handmade knives that are not custom. They are produced by many hands in a factory/semi-factory setting. The name of this forum is Custom & Handmade Knives. That in itself means that whoever came up with that name felt that they were two different classifications that needed to be listed separately. So this forum was started for people to discuss both custom and handmade knives. However, we tend to discuss only custom knives. If we are not going to be open to the discussion of non-custom handmade knives, should the title of this forum be changed.

The reason that I asked this was because in the past I have seen people post questions about non-custom handmade knives, only to have those questions moved to other sub forums. That has left them confused as to why the thread was moved. After all, from the name of the forum, they had posted their question in the right place.

It's not really important that the name be changed. The moderators can keep moving the threads, and members will continue to learn in that way that the forum is not open to discussion of non-custom handmade knives. My view is however, it would be simpler to just change the name to Custom Knives so that there will be no confusion in the first place.

The snobbery part is something that is always going to be as long as people find it more interesting to discuss, and to look at photos, of high end customs than it is to do the same with the lower priced knives. The fact is that we do see a fair amount of threads that display less expensive knives. If anyone wants to start more threads about such knives, all they have to do is post them. They are likely to be favorably received. It's just that the majority of people posting about knives in this forum like the high end stuff. That to me is quite understandable, and if there are a few people that have a problem with it, and consider us to be snobs, that is something that is unlikely to change in the future.
 
The reason that I asked this was because in the past I have seen people post questions about non-custom handmade knives, only to have those questions moved to other sub forums. That has left them confused as to why the thread was moved. After all, from the name of the forum, they had posted their question in the right place.
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Which Non-custom handmade knives are you referring to ? I think if you gave some examples it might be easier to understand.

It appears this thread has gone on the journey of defining handmade versus custom. That was not my original intent, but I will attempt to give my personal definition of the two.
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If the forum was just called Custom Knives , what would stop those from thinking that a Randall is a custom made knife ?
Before you you separate , you have to define who and what is custom and what is handmade. Otherwise , how does a name change help ? Will it avoid confusion or cause more ? :confused:

Keith Montgomery said:
As far as the handmade part of the forum title is concerned, I think that if we aren't going to allow the discussion of handmade knives, handmade should be removed from the forum title. In the past it has been confusing to people that wanted to post about Randall, Ruana, etc, just to find there threads moved to other sub-forums, and it would be better if it wasn't there. I'm not saying that we should discuss handmade knives, as I personally would prefer that this forum focused on custom knives only.
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Keith , answer this if you would since you would prefer this forum to focus on custom knives only. If a knifemaker makes a knife , without customer input , perhaps they just make what they want , is that a custom ?

The name of this forum is Custom & Handmade Knives. That in itself means that whoever came up with that name felt that they were two different classifications that needed to be listed separately.
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Or they felt that the two are so close and hard to segregate that having both in the same forum just made it easier for everyone.

Subforums are great , to a point. When you get to where you have Custom , Handmade , Semi-Custom , Custom Folder , Custom Fixed Blade , Handmade folder , Handmage fixed blade , then we may as well break forged knives into their own subforum. Too many subforums , tends to water things down in my opinion. I enjoy looking at them all in one forum. :D

Your post make people think Keith , and they are always great polite discussions. I do hope we get to meet and share a beverage in person sometime. :thumbup:
 
Kohai999 said:
Up until a point, Rudy did, but now it is the Hangas family working out there, and there are at least 3 of them working on them. Current Ruana knives would be more akin to Randalls, CRK, or, to some degree William-Henry, in that they ARE hand made, but we might not be sure by which hands.:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
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Thanks for the update, Steve, I wasn't aware. In my mind this forum is more for sole authorship or collaboration knives. Not that production or semi-production knives aren't any good, but they probably fit in better in other sub forums.
 
I don't see that there's any real confusion about what knives should or shouldn't be posted in this forum. The rare occasion where something shouldn't be here, the mods provide an efficient moving service, free of charge. For those that love splitting hairs, beating dead horses and running around in circles, I will gladly leave the tedium of semantics and definitions in your most capable hands. Just don't kid yourselves that anything is going to actually change.

Roger
 
Keith,

All my knives are handmade and not custom, didn't have any input in creating them. Haven't had a problem posting here though. Not sure which examples have been moved to other sub forums but perhaps the mods had a reason to do so?

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That all depends on your definition of custom, Jose. If you read what I posted you would know that I am referring to knives that are made by many hands in factory or semi-factory settings. Your knives don't fit that description. Many of the knives that are discussed on this forum were not made to custom order, but are still considered custom knives. The majority of knives sold at shows and through dealers would not have been custom ordered.

If you wish we can discuss semantics, but I would hope that you have a better understanding of the point I was raising than you presented in your post.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
That all depends on your definition of custom, Jose. If you read what I posted you would know that I am referring to knives that are made by many hands in factory or semi-factory settings. Your knives don't fit that description. Many of the knives that are discussed on this forum were not made to custom order, but are still considered custom knives. The majority of knives sold at shows and through dealers would not have been custom ordered.

If you wish we can discuss semantics, but I would hope that you have a better understanding of the point I was raising than you presented in your post.
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Keith,

I thought I was clear on my position when it comes to "factory setting" knives. Perhaps they are better suited to other forums. There are "custom" and "handmade" knives though that fit in fine in this forum, although some interpretation to those terms may be used.

I'm not sure what threads you have an issue with being moved, but leave it in the hands of the moderators. If they do seem to make a mistake in moving a thread I'm sure they'd be open to some feedabck.
 
I think there is quite a bit of discussion about lower priced handmade and custom knives. There are a lot of makers making very reasonably priced handmade "users" and I often read about them on various forums.

There are always opinions and gray areas regarding defining customs and handmade knives. As technology advances it get even more muddy in deciding when the line is crossed from the maker being the primary influence on the product or the machine. Granted, even with an automated machine, someone has to tell the machine what to do. Take a milling machine for example. A knifemaker can spend hours drilling and filing a slot in a guard or he/she can use a mill to do the job much more efficiently. But, does it make a difference if the maker guides the mill by hand or programs a CNC mill to operate automatically? The end result is the same and both methods require a certain, but different, skill and talent. If a stock remover has a blank cut on a water jet machine is it less handmade than if he cuts it out on a bandsaw and profiles it to the exact same shape?

I make a lot of knives that are custom in that I make what I feel at the time. Each is a unique one-of-a-kind and it is custom to MY specifications rather than a customers. Wikipedia defines customization as "anything made or modified to personal taste". I think that is true regardless of whose personal taste, the maker or a customer.

Now, If I made a regular line of knives where I endeavored to make each one like the last, they would be handmade but not necessarily custom. Even then, some argument could be made that since they are each ground freehand and assembled by hand there will be slight differences that makes each one unique in some way. If natural handle materials are used each one will have distinctive features unlike any other and that alone makes it custom in that the maker or the customer chose that particular pattern or material for use in that knife.

Some factory production knives are offered in "custom" versions where a customer can order one made with a particular handle material, etching or filework. It is custom to the customer's order and preferences but it is still a machine made factory knife and very likely another customer has ordered the same "custom" combination of materials and embellishments. What if that knife's parts are entirely machine made to pre-programmed specifications but assembled by hand?

Likewise, there have been many heated arguments about the sometimes blurry line between handmade and factory knives. As already pointed out here the are cases where a knife is handmade by many different hands. This has long been common in many shops where they wanted to increase production by hiring additional workers yet make "handmade" knives. But if you are farming out parts to be machine made when do you cross over from "handmade" to "hand assembled"?

I have made a lot of "lower end" handmade knives in the $100-$300 range. Some got some discussion on the forums, others didn't and never will. I think the higher end customs garner more discussion simply in recognition of the additional work, skill and exotic materials that are usually found in the high end custom knives. Similarly, a very unique design or idea will generate more interest than a more traditional design. I don't think that is snobbery, just human nature to react more to something new or different.

I don't think everybody will ever agree on what defines a custom knife or even the definition of a handmade knife. It is important to some and not to others. One of my favorite tag lines regarding knives is Bernard Levine's "Buy the knife, not the story". I think that applies across the board. Buy, use and collect what you like. Others will have their opinions of it, some positive, some negative. If you are buying it for them, their opinion matters.
 
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