-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Some observations and unsolicited advice
- Thread starter Will Leavitt
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
Whoa... there's a lot of different "subjects" being discussed in this thread. I read all posts, but can't keep up! 
I think Will's bottom line was "PAYING DUES" Which I think is the best one to focus on, as it kind of covers it all.
Nobody can say for sure just what that means... it's sort of intangible, but I think we all have a feeling for its meaning.
Isn't that the main theme here Will?
I think Will's bottom line was "PAYING DUES" Which I think is the best one to focus on, as it kind of covers it all.
Nobody can say for sure just what that means... it's sort of intangible, but I think we all have a feeling for its meaning.
Isn't that the main theme here Will?
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2004
- Messages
- 12,957
I've seen a few times where the oldies came in and relied on the newbies to walk them through a CAD program which I found particularly entertaining because here the tide was turned so to speak and although it may not have been involving the hands on work of actually making a knife it was a case of a newbie being able to teach an old fart a thing or two and to show their own techniques for making something hard to understand a bit easier.
Like I said you can always learn from anyone but you won't get that chance if you shut them out just because of a quick judgement. We've all made errs and I'm certainly no exception as some can testify to but I try best I can using what God gave me. I like to know that in the event I do need a hand that I can reach out to my fellow makers for advice. I had to do that last night trying to gain some insight into "Tapmatic or Procrunier?" when I look to replace some equipment. So far I'm still not learning enough about the latter one which on the surface seems fine to me.
STR
Like I said you can always learn from anyone but you won't get that chance if you shut them out just because of a quick judgement. We've all made errs and I'm certainly no exception as some can testify to but I try best I can using what God gave me. I like to know that in the event I do need a hand that I can reach out to my fellow makers for advice. I had to do that last night trying to gain some insight into "Tapmatic or Procrunier?" when I look to replace some equipment. So far I'm still not learning enough about the latter one which on the surface seems fine to me.
STR
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2008
- Messages
- 1,937
Will / Feller's this is why I haven't sold a single knife yet, and I'm going on #15! I do want to get up to the level I'd be comfortable selling them, I guess you could call it a "quality self conscienceness complex" I just cant imagine being a newbie and askin even a $100+ for a blade that if they took anytime to read the stickies would soon realize they are sloppily made and shoddily heat treated.
+1 on Phillip Patton, That guy makes some downright sexy blades. and he lives w/i a tank of gas to me
would love to see how he gets his grind lines so crisp! He's definantly one of the guys I try to emulate, along with B.Goode for design and Dave Kelly & E. Boese. for handles R.Richard, Nick Wheeler, & Murray Carter for hammer swingin. Ed Caffrey and Kevin Cashen and Mete for Metallurgy. and these are just a few of my teachers here...
Jason
+1 on Phillip Patton, That guy makes some downright sexy blades. and he lives w/i a tank of gas to me
would love to see how he gets his grind lines so crisp! He's definantly one of the guys I try to emulate, along with B.Goode for design and Dave Kelly & E. Boese. for handles R.Richard, Nick Wheeler, & Murray Carter for hammer swingin. Ed Caffrey and Kevin Cashen and Mete for Metallurgy. and these are just a few of my teachers here... Jason
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2006
- Messages
- 3,953
Paying dues, doing your time in the hole.. whatever you want to call it. That issue and the climate change towards instant gratification (which I guess goes back to paying your dues) in the forum.
Paying your dues isn't just selling your knives at a lower price, it's doing the studying, the practice, getting critiqued, it's about LEARNING OUR craft. There's a lot to knifemaking beyond putting the steel to the wheel. I guess I feel that people that demand answers or instant success without any work cheapen our craft.
Like most makers I'll share whatever I know, I just want to know there's some effort before, during and after. I don't know if some of the "instant gratification" guys realize what it costs some of the full time makers and really high makers on here to share that knowledge. It's costing them their shop time and time is something you'll never get back, I consider time to be one of the most precious things in a shop.
Paying your dues isn't just selling your knives at a lower price, it's doing the studying, the practice, getting critiqued, it's about LEARNING OUR craft. There's a lot to knifemaking beyond putting the steel to the wheel. I guess I feel that people that demand answers or instant success without any work cheapen our craft.
Like most makers I'll share whatever I know, I just want to know there's some effort before, during and after. I don't know if some of the "instant gratification" guys realize what it costs some of the full time makers and really high makers on here to share that knowledge. It's costing them their shop time and time is something you'll never get back, I consider time to be one of the most precious things in a shop.
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
I hear 'ya Will. I can understand/appreciate STR's and William's posts as well, but I think maybe they're seeing some of the posts here as being overly judge-mental... When for the most part, I think a new guy getting critique and advice from a more experienced person is just the nature of all this.
It's not about age, but experience.
A guy that's ground 500 blades is going to know more of what to look for while grinding than a guy that's ground 10. Even if the guy that ground 500 is 25 years younger than the one that's ground 10.
I would expect the respect to be gifted towards the experience... no matter what the topic, or the ages of those involved.
I also agree that delivery of advice/critigue can make all the difference in the world.
I try to be fair if I'm asked for it... but there are a handful of guys here that clearly don't like me after I offered it to them. :foot:
It's not about age, but experience.
A guy that's ground 500 blades is going to know more of what to look for while grinding than a guy that's ground 10. Even if the guy that ground 500 is 25 years younger than the one that's ground 10.
I would expect the respect to be gifted towards the experience... no matter what the topic, or the ages of those involved.
I also agree that delivery of advice/critigue can make all the difference in the world.
I try to be fair if I'm asked for it... but there are a handful of guys here that clearly don't like me after I offered it to them. :foot:
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2006
- Messages
- 1,461
I'd say that's an excellent summary to a thread that's run from top to bottom.
I agree whole heartedly with every word here, Will.
And you know on a side note, I can't see how someone would want to put all the sweat and work into a handmade knife and not read all they can on the subject. I'm literally addicted to knife making. I can't not read about it and so I can't understand those who don't. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
Later,
Iz
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2000
- Messages
- 4,786
I got to a place where I just wouldn't bother with any replies. This realy defeats the purpose which of course is to always move forward with learning and quality work and therefore helping those that make the inquiries.
In the work that I did in the past so I once had a trainee ask me how well he was doing. I replied, "for your time in, you are doing well". I just didn't want to take away from what the fellow was doing but wanted to encourage him to keep learning. He did end up being an excellent operator of the equipment invoved. I don't believe many of those that post pictures realize what there efforts lack and worse of all don't really want to be told. I remember a post here or on another site where a maker was asking what he should sell his folder for. someone gave him a figure three times what I felt was a true value. I did not give my estimate. I did see it sell and for my estimated value. Was this maker disapointed and that was the end of his making? If you ask for comments, expect the truth as other see your work from the experience they have. By the way, knife making to earn a living with is a thing that only works for a very few. Most present day makers have a financial support system of one type or another. Take the time and have the guts to take the remarks that will help you improve your work. Frank
In the work that I did in the past so I once had a trainee ask me how well he was doing. I replied, "for your time in, you are doing well". I just didn't want to take away from what the fellow was doing but wanted to encourage him to keep learning. He did end up being an excellent operator of the equipment invoved. I don't believe many of those that post pictures realize what there efforts lack and worse of all don't really want to be told. I remember a post here or on another site where a maker was asking what he should sell his folder for. someone gave him a figure three times what I felt was a true value. I did not give my estimate. I did see it sell and for my estimated value. Was this maker disapointed and that was the end of his making? If you ask for comments, expect the truth as other see your work from the experience they have. By the way, knife making to earn a living with is a thing that only works for a very few. Most present day makers have a financial support system of one type or another. Take the time and have the guts to take the remarks that will help you improve your work. Frank
Matthew Gregory
Chief Executive in charge of Entertainment
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2005
- Messages
- 6,673
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 28,622
arrogant people eventually sort themselves out. One way or another:jerkit:.
But still, it's irritating to peruse the knife maker's classifieds, seeing absolute garbage going for laughable amounts of money. I try not to be irritated, instead I LOL.
I'm no knife maker, but I am a trained and skilled bike mechanic. I spent many years taking shit from my mentors before I started thinking I was a halfway decent mechanic. I fixed bikes for free every chance I got, just for the experience.
Now I own my own bike shop, and train my guys. The first lesson is that they are NOT bike mechanics. They are apprentices, and when they are competent, I'll let them know. But until that time, they aren't supposed to go around calling themselves bike mechanics.
To this day, after almost 15 years wrenching bikes, I'll readily admit I'm not the best mechanic out there. I try to stay humble. It's hard to learn new things, otherwise.
But still, it's irritating to peruse the knife maker's classifieds, seeing absolute garbage going for laughable amounts of money. I try not to be irritated, instead I LOL.
I'm no knife maker, but I am a trained and skilled bike mechanic. I spent many years taking shit from my mentors before I started thinking I was a halfway decent mechanic. I fixed bikes for free every chance I got, just for the experience.
Now I own my own bike shop, and train my guys. The first lesson is that they are NOT bike mechanics. They are apprentices, and when they are competent, I'll let them know. But until that time, they aren't supposed to go around calling themselves bike mechanics.
To this day, after almost 15 years wrenching bikes, I'll readily admit I'm not the best mechanic out there. I try to stay humble. It's hard to learn new things, otherwise.
Matthew Gregory
Chief Executive in charge of Entertainment
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2005
- Messages
- 6,673
I hear 'ya Will. I can understand/appreciate STR's and William's posts as well, but I think maybe they're seeing some of the posts here as being overly judge-mental... When for the most part, I think a new guy getting critique and advice from a more experienced person is just the nature of all this.
It's not about age, but experience.
A guy that's ground 500 blades is going to know more of what to look for while grinding than a guy that's ground 10. Even if the guy that ground 500 is 25 years younger than the one that's ground 10.
I would expect the respect to be gifted towards the experience... no matter what the topic, or the ages of those involved.
I also agree that delivery of advice/critigue can make all the difference in the world.
I try to be fair if I'm asked for it... but there are a handful of guys here that clearly don't like me after I offered it to them. :foot:
Jesus, Nicky... how many "I's" can you stuff into a post! This isn't about whether or not you rubbed someone the wrong way, for chrissake!
...besides, I just think you're a putz cuz yer so damn sexy. Is that story about you and Mace Vitale and the 'mineral oil quench test' at Wulf's place last year true? Spangler says that Mace denied it, and that when he found you two nekkid together it was because it was so hot out...
I'd like to throw out one thought in regards the the numerous times some threads seem to come up. I've been a lurker on this board for quite some time and post occassionally and look through the boards for information and inspiration(both of which can be readily had)
however, one of the likely causes of the numerous times similar threads come up is the lack of a search function for members below a certain level. Not every question is going to be answered in the stickies, and the pace at which this board sprouts new threads is amazing, meaning posts from last week, could be several pages back in particular forums(I really only look at the shop talk and materials for sell board, so can't speak to others.) I know there is a way to use google to search through the boards, but if a new person signs up for the basic membership, and goes to the section of their interest but can not make use of a search feature for their particular area of interest, then the likely response is they are going to post on it, either knowingly or not repeating the oft answered question. If they get lucky, then another board member, who can use the search function, will run the search function for them and list out previous threads on the subject.
Perhaps the sticky on how to search the forum through google should be included in every forum sub forum? that might at least help with some of the repeating threads.
I just want to throw that out as a possible reason for a shift in the forum as if memory serves(and it doesn't always) it wasn't that long ago that the forum search feature was no longer available to basic members.
Kindyr
however, one of the likely causes of the numerous times similar threads come up is the lack of a search function for members below a certain level. Not every question is going to be answered in the stickies, and the pace at which this board sprouts new threads is amazing, meaning posts from last week, could be several pages back in particular forums(I really only look at the shop talk and materials for sell board, so can't speak to others.) I know there is a way to use google to search through the boards, but if a new person signs up for the basic membership, and goes to the section of their interest but can not make use of a search feature for their particular area of interest, then the likely response is they are going to post on it, either knowingly or not repeating the oft answered question. If they get lucky, then another board member, who can use the search function, will run the search function for them and list out previous threads on the subject.
Perhaps the sticky on how to search the forum through google should be included in every forum sub forum? that might at least help with some of the repeating threads.
I just want to throw that out as a possible reason for a shift in the forum as if memory serves(and it doesn't always) it wasn't that long ago that the forum search feature was no longer available to basic members.
Kindyr
- Joined
- Dec 3, 1999
- Messages
- 9,437
Hey Mr. Gregory... There is no I in team!!! But there is a "me"! 
As per Vermont... what happens in Vermont, stays in Vermont. But FWIW- it's funny that you claim you don't know what happened...when you were right in the middle of the fun!!!
As per Vermont... what happens in Vermont, stays in Vermont. But FWIW- it's funny that you claim you don't know what happened...when you were right in the middle of the fun!!!
Matthew Gregory
Chief Executive in charge of Entertainment
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2005
- Messages
- 6,673
I'll give you a nifty trick: if you do a search in google for something (let's say 'heat treat 1095' for the sake of this exercise and add 'site:bladeforums.com' to the end of it, it'll do just what the search engine here is supposed to do, only better!
Hope this helps you, and welcome to bladeforums!
Nick, is the Mr. thing supposed to be a slam at my age?
...and I wasn't in the middle, but I sure was stuck!:barf::barf:
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2006
- Messages
- 3,238
I make period pieces (13th century period that is) and some 16th century pieces in addition to everything else I make. My period pieces need to be spot-on and clean(with documentation too) or they will not sell.
At some point I am going to get frustrated and build a macro so that when I'm in BF I type *NEWBIE* and it automatically fills in "Don't buy a 5 horsepower 3450 RPM buffer to use on knives, read the Good Info Here stickies, Use known steel that you can heat treat, and FILL OUT YOUR PROFILE
It is rewarding when I help some person who is genuinely in need of some guidance in the right direction, they take the advice given by myself and a whole lot of much better smiths than I and make something that is an honest effort. It is rewarding to watch their progress, and eventually watch them pass it forward.
Then there's the OTHER G__D___newbs.
Hey, if you can't stay in the yard with the big dogs, stay on the porch. It's a whole lot more fun in the yard, but somedays ya gonna get bit. Deal!
I have seen some jaw-droppingly awesome work on this forum, I have seen some amazing crap, and I have seen some really honest efforts by guys that are genuinely trying to get better
It does bug the snot outta me when some mall ninja bandsaws something out of a lawnmower blade "scandi" grinds it, doesn't even bother to heat treat it, and cons some poor soul into dropping several hundred on it.
Good thread Will!
-Page
At some point I am going to get frustrated and build a macro so that when I'm in BF I type *NEWBIE* and it automatically fills in "Don't buy a 5 horsepower 3450 RPM buffer to use on knives, read the Good Info Here stickies, Use known steel that you can heat treat, and FILL OUT YOUR PROFILE
It is rewarding when I help some person who is genuinely in need of some guidance in the right direction, they take the advice given by myself and a whole lot of much better smiths than I and make something that is an honest effort. It is rewarding to watch their progress, and eventually watch them pass it forward.
Then there's the OTHER G__D___newbs.
Hey, if you can't stay in the yard with the big dogs, stay on the porch. It's a whole lot more fun in the yard, but somedays ya gonna get bit. Deal!
I have seen some jaw-droppingly awesome work on this forum, I have seen some amazing crap, and I have seen some really honest efforts by guys that are genuinely trying to get better
It does bug the snot outta me when some mall ninja bandsaws something out of a lawnmower blade "scandi" grinds it, doesn't even bother to heat treat it, and cons some poor soul into dropping several hundred on it.
Good thread Will!
-Page
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2004
- Messages
- 12,957
There is a bladeforums google search folks. :thumbup:
http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra
STR
http://www.google.com/coop/cse?cx=011197018607028182644:qfobr3dlcra
STR
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2008
- Messages
- 3,721
hehehehehe thats funny stuff
i love the description, i can practically see the image of that knife in my mind.....wait, i have a bunch on my bench
j/kPage
Off topic, but several months ago you spent most of the day tutoring me, on this forum, with my lack of photography skills.
I was just thinking TODAY how much I owe you for taking the time. It REALLY helped and was sincerely appreciated. Thank You!
Matt Doyle
- Joined
- Oct 2, 2006
- Messages
- 3,238
Page
Off topic, but several months ago you spent most of the day tutoring me, on this forum, with my lack of photography skills.
Thank You!
Matt Doyle
Glad to be of assistance. Just following in the footsteps of some folks who are amazingly generous of their time and expertise like Stacy and Kevin
So . . . show me how you have put that to good use (hint, hint put up a picture of your work
)-Page
Hi all,
I haven't posted much here on BF because some of the egos in the other sections turned me off, but I've tried to be active on some of the other forums, including the Knife Network which I stumbled upon several years ago. A few of you may know me as Armory414 over there. I've been a newbie maker for about 3 years now. I measure time in the number of knives I've made, not years.
In the time I've been on here and the other forums, I've seen waves of newbies come and go. Some have come, stayed, and done well. Some have even done so well that they don't have time to hang around the forums any more! But there are many who got the itch to make a knife, and either made a real attempt and found out how much effort is really involved, or got poor advice, became disheartened, and gave up. Let's face it--just as there are newbies out there trying to sell crap for quality prices, there are veteran makers who look down their nose at anyone not running a variable speed KMG and a Paragon, telling them they aren't real makers unless they have the equipment.
For a lot of the newbies there comes a time when they have to decide--Do you want to make knives? Or do you want to be known as a knifemaker? The ones that ask themselves the first question knuckle down and put their time in. The ones that ask themselves the second question, I think, are the ones that Will is concerned about.
How many makers hang around the forums making mid-quality knives, and have buddies on the forums that buy the knives and talk them up? Just as the internet has been wonderful in getting free information out to people that want to learn to make knives, it is also just as terrible in putting a facade of legitimacy on people wanting to portray themselves as knifemakers. I know of one such person who started a website to sell knives and advertise his work in factory knife embellishments, and even was given space on a forum for his fans to hang out and for him to display his work. He wanted to be a knifemaker, but. . . I think he finally got the wake-up call when a customer contracted with him to rehandle a Randall made knife. He F'd it up, however good his intentions and aspirations were.
I think time will sort those guys out. Their online forum buddies will only be able to buy that maker's knives for so long. For the other customers--there's a fool born every minute. But I think all of us know, too, that just as these forums can be a bit clique-ish, the fans that hang around some of them can be just as vicious. Once a few people pay $150 for a $50 knife and realize what they are, the word will spread.
I haven't posted much here on BF because some of the egos in the other sections turned me off, but I've tried to be active on some of the other forums, including the Knife Network which I stumbled upon several years ago. A few of you may know me as Armory414 over there. I've been a newbie maker for about 3 years now. I measure time in the number of knives I've made, not years.
In the time I've been on here and the other forums, I've seen waves of newbies come and go. Some have come, stayed, and done well. Some have even done so well that they don't have time to hang around the forums any more! But there are many who got the itch to make a knife, and either made a real attempt and found out how much effort is really involved, or got poor advice, became disheartened, and gave up. Let's face it--just as there are newbies out there trying to sell crap for quality prices, there are veteran makers who look down their nose at anyone not running a variable speed KMG and a Paragon, telling them they aren't real makers unless they have the equipment.
For a lot of the newbies there comes a time when they have to decide--Do you want to make knives? Or do you want to be known as a knifemaker? The ones that ask themselves the first question knuckle down and put their time in. The ones that ask themselves the second question, I think, are the ones that Will is concerned about.
How many makers hang around the forums making mid-quality knives, and have buddies on the forums that buy the knives and talk them up? Just as the internet has been wonderful in getting free information out to people that want to learn to make knives, it is also just as terrible in putting a facade of legitimacy on people wanting to portray themselves as knifemakers. I know of one such person who started a website to sell knives and advertise his work in factory knife embellishments, and even was given space on a forum for his fans to hang out and for him to display his work. He wanted to be a knifemaker, but. . . I think he finally got the wake-up call when a customer contracted with him to rehandle a Randall made knife. He F'd it up, however good his intentions and aspirations were.
I think time will sort those guys out. Their online forum buddies will only be able to buy that maker's knives for so long. For the other customers--there's a fool born every minute. But I think all of us know, too, that just as these forums can be a bit clique-ish, the fans that hang around some of them can be just as vicious. Once a few people pay $150 for a $50 knife and realize what they are, the word will spread.