Some observations and unsolicited advice

[David Wesner]

It's not about age, but experience.

A guy that's ground 500 blades is going to know more of what to look for while grinding than a guy that's ground 10. Even if the guy that ground 500 is 25 years younger than the one that's ground 10.

I try to be fair if I'm asked for it... but there are a handful of guys here that clearly don't like me after I offered it to them. :foot:

You can read and ask a million questions, but nothing ......... absolutely nothing, will help you progress faster than actually doing it.
I made my first knife, (I think) the winter of 2003, months before finding BladeForums.

Heck, I worked with steel in Tool, Die & Machine shops since I was 18 yrs old, I'm 47 now. I thought I could waltz in and make a good knife. How hard could it be ??? HA ! What a rude awakening I had. Sure, it cut. But honestly, it looked Know why ? Even after having worked with steel for pertnear 25 yrs, I was an amateur " knifemaker ". This isn't a hobby or job that can be mastered in 6 months ............ or even 6 years. There are very special skills (some basic skills too) a maker needs to get comfortable with before he or she is capable of making a good looking, quality knife and sheath.

Many of you here helped me develop my knifemaking skills over the past few years. Things finally seemed to come together in regards to how to do things from a single post made by Don Hanson. No one is more responsible for how they look than now ,than Nick Wheeler, again, a single, simple post that he made a few years back about the width of ricasso in relation to handle width.

Whats my point ?

The statement Will made in post #26. The instant gratification.
In the past I've taken the time to share tips I've found helpful only to be blown off by an OP who already "knows-it-all". No thank you for the help, sometimes not even a response. Some can't yet manage to drill a hole, the most simple basic task

I've tried to maintain a humble presence here, realizing my place, and just how much I have yet to learn.

More than anything I wish some of the newer aspiring makers understood just how lucky we are to have the opportunity to get help from guys like Hanson, Bump, Wheeler, Ealy, Richards, Caffrey, Fitzgerald, Anderson, Cashen, IG .............. the list goes on. There is a vast set of skills, and tens of thousands of hours of hands on experience required to reach the level of some of the names I just mentioned.
Maybe some don't care to reach that level.
I do.
I know some other guys here that do too, and we take this very seriously.

I'm doing my best to see both sides of this thread, and felt compelled to throw out my thoughts on the Shop Talk section of BladeForums. Personally I love this place. Lately, I've found myself reading more than posting



:grumpy:

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Heck, I worked with steel in Tool, Die & Machine shops since I was 18 yrs old, I'm 47 now. I thought I could waltz in and make a good knife. How hard could it be ??? HA ! What a rude awakening I had. :

Ditto...


BTW, those of you who haven't looked at David's website - you should take a look at it. He is damn good. If he can show this kind of humility, we all can...

 

[tmickley]

As far as pricing goes, the market takes care of all that in a big hurry. I wouldn't worry about newer makers competing with veterans or even depressing the prices in general. The market pays and buys what it wants. The over priced guy, new or old, will end being his best collector and probably a little bitter if he doesn't understand what is happening.

I am seeing a lot of guys out of work looking to make a living or looking to simply make something from knife making. I'm 51 and have never seen so many people out of work or nearly out of work or working less than they want. People need to work and knife making appears to them, to be a way to generate some income. You can't talk them out of it and a guy probably shouldn't even try.

The other large influx of noobs I am seeing are baby boomers freshly retired or getting ready to retire and they want a creative outlet. There are *a lot* of these guys coming online.

These are all excited, happy, enthusiastic noobs that keep the industry going. They have the same questions as the guys 6 month ago and 6 years ago. Long timers don't mind answering these the first 50 times and get quiet after that. This lets the next batch of young bucks step up. Hakkuna Matata and all that. It's the circle of life.

Knife making is different things to different people and the culture seems to be changing a bit due to it's growing popularity. It has definitely shifted towards the money side of the equation vs the love and elegance of the craft. That's going to be uncomfortable for some people but for most, it seems normal and they won't know the difference.

How do you get a noob to understand about paying dues, fair pricing, craftsmanship and all of the other things the long timers value? You don't, you just simply wait and let time passing sort it all out.

pardon my rambling, thanks for allowing my opinion to be tossed in the hat also..

 

[Will Leavitt]

Guys, I was initially worried that this would spiral out of control (probably why I've deleted it every time I typed it) like some other topics, thanks to everyone for keeping it civil.

 

[Dan Gray]

wow.... I got up to Tracy's post, like post 100 ?
that's all I'm reading for today
in the most part... I think this is a good thread
BTW,nice points Tracy..

I just deleted a lot of babble I wrote because, there is too much that goes into " paying your dues" ... IMO

I will say one thing on the topic of
paying Dues though... heck I'm still paying and I can't see the end of it..

if someone calls me a knife maker, well ...he is entitled to do so, if he sees fit .. but I will try to do my best as I go and keep learning along the way...

I lied on the 1 more thing ,:foot:

to the new... think about what you are selling and don't let any piece bite you in the ass 20 years from now... and you'll be OK.. I hope well for you.....

 

[James_Terrio]

...thanks to everyone for keeping it civil.

It just reinforces what I realized a while ago... this place is populated by some very generous people. Generous with time, expertise, grinders!!! and sometimes a good kick-in-the-pants when it's needed. I'd buy any of you guys a coffee or beer, just to pick your brains a little.

I'm proud to be a teeny tiny part of this community and I'll try to follow your examples.

People need to work and knife making appears to them, to be a way to generate some income. You can't talk them out of it and a guy probably shouldn't even try.

That's me! I humbly admit it. I'm not offended by what you said at all, I definitely see your point. And nope, no one's going to talk me out of trying! If I fail miserably and wind up mowing lawns for a living (nothing wrong with that), at least I'll know I tried. I spent a lot of years doing work I wasn't all that passionate about and it wasn't good for my mental health.

By the way, my Paragon finally showed up, so get ready for lots of dumb questions from me soon!!

 

[NStricker]

Knife making is different things to different people and the culture seems to be changing a bit due to it's growing popularity. It has definitely shifted towards the money side of the equation vs the love and elegance of the craft. That's going to be uncomfortable for some people but for most, it seems normal and they won't know the difference.

How do you get a noob to understand about paying dues, fair pricing, craftsmanship and all of the other things the long timers value? You don't, you just simply wait and let time passing sort it all out.

Tracy,

I think you are right in that there is money driving a lot of newbie makers into the arena, likely due to the economy, likely due to the fact that they see the prices that a well made knife can bring and think that they can make (or are possibly entitled to) the same kind of money.

I also see a change in the American culture in terms of the type of knives that are desired by the general market. In probably the last 20 years their has been a shift, I think, away from hunting knives and more towards tactical/personal defense knives. Who would have thought that by taking a Japanese woodworking knife, and wrapping it with paracord that we would see a popular tactical knife, the kiridashi? There is kind of an expected "look" with such knives--dark, matte, all business. That same look also goes along with some of Will's comments about fit and finish on the "period knives." A newer maker can make a "tactical" knife, coat it in a bake-on paint finish, assemble some rough looking micarta slab handles, and call it good. And, a lot of guys out there, especially the guys that are hard on their knives, won't mind. I see the same change in the kinds of guys that walk into gun shows and what the dealers are displaying. Twenty years ago most guns at a show would be hunting rifles--blued with wood stocks. Now a days it seems the majority are selling guns set up for the tactical market. Matte finish, plastic stocks, semi-auto this or that. I know some of the older guys have a hard time selling wood-stocked shotguns. The young guys walking into the shows want molded plastic.

There is a local maker that sells at the gun shows. His knives are "tactical." Basically pry bars with a sabre grind, powder coated, with a micarta handle. He charges $125-175 depending on the size. He usually has a dozen or so knives per show, and usually sells most of them.

 

[Will Leavitt]

I tell this a lot. I started making knives because I couldn't afford the knives I wanted. Like most of us makers, I'm a "I can do that" kind of guy. I could have bought some really nice custom knives by the time I got to the point where I'd actually carry a knife I made much less sell them.

I guess I agree with y'all that the economy is driving some of the mad rush from new makers to sell knives at an established maker's prices. I will admit that when they cut our hours I did design some simple, easy to make and sell knives to help pay the bills around the house. I didn't cut corners though and have been gently and less than gently in private that I wasn't charging enough. Never heard that complaint before, I guess they want their knives to appreciate quickly. I just hope the rush of new makers won't sour buyers on getting custom knives in the future.

 

[Patrice Lemée]

Ok, like Dan, I read a bunch but I now need to get into the shop.

What I wanted to say is I am sorry if I contributed to the problem.
I try to research or actually do before asking questions. I sometime get frustrated and finally ask a question only to find the answers a few days later while not really looking that hard.

So I apologize, I would hate to think I "chased away" the more experienced knifemakers. I will try to ask less and do more.

Pat

 

[hellgap]

What an excellent thread. I first will address FIDDLEBACK . I WAS JOKING AND IF ANYTHING BEING SARCASTIC TO MYSELF. You really need to relax could you hear the tone of my voice, thats the bad thing about print on a computer you cant hear the tone of the person speaking,enough said. This thread is about prices of knives and new knife makers. First off i read 80% of the threads some are to long winded for me to waste my shop time reading.What ive taken from this forum so far in 2 months is you get out what you put in . I spend alot of time reading peoples posts to better myself and then walk 10 ft to my shop to try it. Some times its all BS. Like I always say you only get better by being the best you can be and not settleing for less. I am excesive compulsive and strive for perfection so i think i will acheive where i want to go with this hobby for now. What i have to offer to this thread is plain and simple . SOME PEOPLE HAVE TALLENT AND SOME JUST NEVER WILL. I have seen knives guys have been making for over 20 years no better than mine after 2 months. This guy i know I tell him im starting to make knives he says i did that im like really lets see, and now i know why he quit.I also made a joke to the guy who asked about lawn mower blades and I also asked about leaf springs and coil springs for cheap yes CHEAP steel. Like i said you get out of it what you put in free cheap steel+chunk off the neighbours tree + NO TALENT = CHEAP KNIVES . Not all people have tallent but with time and instruction from people who have these SKILLS will enable their level of skill to become even greater such as Hattori but even he had a teacher. Now back to selling knives i have sold a couple I dont believe selling a knife here would benifit anyone as far as profit goes, but the buyer sure would as ive seen some increadable knives sold way to cheap. Look at the xmas gift exchange some new makers offered a block of wood glued to some metal in exchange for a 500 dollar knife ya ya its the season for giving bla bla I would not go in a gift exchange unless my standards were at least average compared to others. I felt sorry for the master knife maker who was involved and recieved a knife worthy of the junk drawer.My cost on my knives comes to 80 bucks a knife and i sell them for 125 for 10 hours of work. I AM MAKING A PROFIT LMAO . I guess thats why i have a day job. Keep your nose to the grind stone if you want to be succesful at anything you do. kellyw

 

[go mike]

What I really love about this forum is that even the great makers (like Tai Goo) come in and ask some questions. It just shows that everyone is always learning better ways to make knives. There is no perfect way, just your favorite way.

 

[NickWheeler]

Ditto...


BTW, those of you who haven't looked at David's website - you should take a look at it. He is damn good. If he can show this kind of humility, we all can...

Ditto X 2.

David has one of the most impressive skills:humility ratios you'll find anywhere in the knife world. The man, flat-out, has skills, but the only way you'll know is by ACTUALLY seeing his work... it's just outstanding.

I appreciate the mention David, but everything you've accomplished has been hard earned by you and you alone.

It's rare to find a man that's so willing and EAGER to bridge the gap between forging AND high tech (predominantly) stock removal methods. He's a veteran tool and die maker (think hardcore machinist) yet he's also got a forge and anvil in his shop.

I can't think of a better example of a man that came onto the forums with the skills AND attitude to be great... and has definitely made his presence known amongst makers and collectors.

Good on 'ya my friend :thumbup:

 

[bindlestitch]

I started making knives because I couldn't afford the knives I wanted. Like most of us makers, I'm a "I can do that" kind of guy. I could have bought some really nice custom knives by the time I got to the point where I'd actually carry a knife I made much less sell them.

Ha! Same here. I could have bought that Randall I wanted several times over after butchering all the steel I have in the past couple years.
Later,
Iz

 

[Robert Dark]

I make a few knives now and then, and have been told that the fit and finish is "pretty good". I have also been told that my prices are "pretty good". I have also been told that my advice to a few new guys was "pretty good".

I know that I will never live long enough to get to where I would like to be. There is just too much to learn and not enough time to get there.

I also know that I would not be considered "pretty good" if it were not for fellow knifemakers helping me along the way, including many of you on this forum and many that don't frequent this forum.

I will tell any new maker that the only way to succeed is to work your tail off and pay those dues. Take the good with the bad. You have to be in this business for the long run.

Enough chatter......... Robert

By the way, I'll take number 62.

 

[Fred.Rowe]

I make a few knives now and then, and have been told that the fit and finish is "pretty good". I have also been told that my prices are "pretty good". I have also been told that my advice to a few new guys was "pretty good".

I know that I will never live long enough to get to where I would like to be. There is just too much to learn and not enough time to get there.

I also know that I would not be considered "pretty good" if it were not for fellow knifemakers helping me along the way, including many of you on this forum and many that don't frequent this forum.

I will tell any new maker that the only way to succeed is to work your tail off and pay those dues. Take the good with the bad. You have to be in this business for the long run.

Enough chatter......... Robert

By the way, I'll take number 62.

Good post my friend. :thumbup:

 

[CUTS LIKE A KRIS]

I think there are a few different takes on this thread- I'll only address a few that I have personal experience with. I am a slow maker who has only finished 8 knives that I actually called knives (my first one, I was paid for, but I hated it and only made it to the specs given as I was doing a coworker a favor making her boyfriend a fantasy dagger that he drew- out of hard but unknown steel). I have sold one- it was my second, an ulu that I made for my massage therapist that I exchanged textbooks for.

I do not come close to thinking that I am at a level that I should sell my knives, but if somebody gives me something that challenges me and I feel I can do I would take it to give me the drive to complete it. Otherwise life always seems to get in the way.

A couple of times I have posted what I have made and explicitly asked for the good AND bad points of what was posted. I received almost no advice on what to fix, how to make things better or anything else- especially after asking again to bring the post up. 288 views and nobody would help me except:

"really interesting desing- i like the wooden handled one best."

"The file work progression is nice. I don't know how far the edge goes on the ironwood one - but if it goes all the way back, it is just begging to bite the user. You might want to round it just a millimeter or so for those times that your grip isn't quite perfect.
Your liners came out nice and clean - perhaps because you don't have a buffer? It's tough to keep them that vibrant.
You make it all look as easy as jumping out of an airplane."

"Very cool to commemorate such an event with your own knives."

I find it hard to believe that out of 288 views the 3 responses covered everybody's viewpoint. So does this mean my dues are paid and I should charge top dollar as I only got one suggestion? Are my designs and execution of them so horrendous that I should stop altogether and stop working with my hands? Hard to tell where I am if nobody will help me. I will sometimes comment with my honest opinion when I see another poster left out to dry as nobody will step up and tell them what they think.

Another thing I see is that differences in style often are given a negative opinion. Well made tacticals are given scorn by based on their dislike of anything not traditional. Personally I do not like finger guards (single or double) but do not trash such designs when I see them (something to keep aware of when critiquing another's work), but will give my opinion on proportions, materials or other such factors.

Maybe being new I should post less and work more but life gets in the way and I am very passionate about knives with my own clear opinions, and a love for most (not quite all) things knives.

 

[atakach]

I dont know, how this thread is still going........i guess every body's got an opinion, so it'll last a bit, but i got to thinking and the age old saying should sum it all up. No matter black/white, book smart, hands on gifted, young ,old, bottom line "YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW" put the time and dedication in, like everyone else, and it'll pay off, if not then dont expect someting when you dont pay into it.

That would be like the farmer bitch'en cause the corn dont grow, .......well if ya'd have planted it it would have???? Make sense?? probably not.....I think the voices in my head just took over for a second....owell back to the shop to pay my dues, and at my rate , There charging interest, cause i am way behind on my payments!!

andrew



am i way off topic?? the origional post is way to far back to re-read....hope this still applies

 

[awp101]

I debated replying for a while but I figured what the heck! What's one more response to a 6 page thread?

I'm so new to knives and knifemaking, I don't even know what I don't know yet if that makes sense.

Regarding instant gratification:
A couple of years ago my shooting buddy mentioned a thread on a firearms forum where a poster had ordered something from a vendor late at night (maybe even a Friday night) and started whining because it hadn't arrived within 72 hours. Not complaining that he hadn't been charged yet, not complaining that his order hadn't been processed yet but actually complaining it wasn't in his hands within 72 hours. I made the comment to my buddy that in the age of the internet, even instant gratification takes too long.

I've been on message boards close to 10 years now (jeez my wife is right, I DO need a life!) and I've seen this mindset grow almost exponentially. The posts of "I just bought a RemChester/HK/SIG/etc tactical/sniper/CBQ rifle and the lousy thing won't group more than 3 MOA at 100yds! What junk!" seem to pop up every few weeks and invariably it's a brand new shooter who hasn't taken the time or made the effort to practice and find out what the rifle likes. They just bought it on the basis of "The factory says it'll shoot 0.0000001 MOA at 1000 yds!" and are feeding it Bubba's gunshow reloads.

As far as attitudes, I heard it best described a few years ago on a radio program: Many folks nowadays think they are starring in their own movie. Keep that in mind as you observe folks for the next few days and see if there's not more than a bit of truth in that statement.

 

[Jim Adams Customs]

The internet has helped the new Knifemaker. We have read and watched 100's if not 1000's of You tube videos. We have read 100's of books and magazines. It has put us in the shops and helped us picked the minds of the greatest makers.
We looked at millions of dollars worth of knives in "the Blade Books". We have learned these lesson well. We thank every knifemaker for the knowledge. So when you refer to hard knocks and dues. The veteran knifemaker hard knocks and dues has pushed the craft and art in way that we should all be very proud to be part of. We thank you for that.

I am a new Knifemaker less than 6 months. I have yet to sell a knife for less than 150.00. My first knife I sold was not one of my quality knives to my standards, but had the best materials I could put together. My customer love it and didn't mind paying for it (200.00). He got the knife on Thursday and Saturday killed the largest deer of his life, and used his knife to field dress it.

Two weeks ago I watched a guy at gun show demand a man to put his knife down as he gave me 250.00 for tactical Damascus knife, it didn't even get a comment on BF when I put it up.

Today I watched a lady gladly shell out 250.00 for a knife that my colleagues on BF said at best it was a 100.00 knife by was good concept and I should develop it more.

When a knife even with it flaws get 250.00 You are meeting the demands of who you are making the knife for "The Customer". All businesses are about the customer.

I was at show few weeks ago thinking where do I need to go to sell more knives. What hell am I thinking. I should be thinking how do I make more knives my customers want.

It not about paying dues. It about developing the skills to make knives that "Your Customers" want. I have learned some very valuable lesson on BF. I will develop my skills from BF suggestions with grain of salt, I look at a comment and see if this person ever made a knife for " a customer". I make knives for my customers not for purveyor or the reseller. If you make knifes for "your customers" the resellers and purveyors will follow.

I thank all the veteran makers, collectors, knife lovers, purveyors and resellers for making this craft one the greatest things I have ever been part of. It is about enjoyed the journey as knifemaker.

 

[NStricker]

"My first knife I sold was not one of my quality knives to my standards, but had the best materials I could put together. My customer love it and didn't mind paying for it (200.00)."

I guess that says it all right there. Wasn't up to your standards, but you didn't have a problem taking money for it?