Spyderco "mislead" about price increases!!!

[91bravo]

I did! Copper handled PM2 and REX45 blade. This knife was a bargain.

And it's a dandy!

 

[91bravo]

 

[Danke42]

And it's a dandy!

Yeah those 2 in your post look slick.

I've explained stuff like this before to Ganzofan and Chronvore but while I can explain it for them I can't understand it for them.

It's just tragic.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

I added some pics on the OP. Looks like most people people got Tenacious for between $15 and $29.

Rat 1 is actually cheaper today than it was eight years ago.

And when you talk about Spyderco MAPP, that only started a few years ago.

Yes, because you're comparing prices then and now and I'm taking MAP into account. As I've pointed out, the Tenacious was significantly more expensive than the Rat even when it was introduced, which destroys your entire argument that they were priced the same and one increased and one didn't. The very foundation of your argument is fallacious.

 

[The Mastiff]

I have yet to see any lies from Sal. That said I'm unsure what the point of this post is. Are we supposed to grab torches and pitchforks now?

By the way I've heard explanations about how certain countries keep their currency value artificially low to benefit the trade. Never heard one complaining about material costs. If I was to attempt to make the argument that someone was lying I'd want proof of the lies to include in the presentation and this one for sure has none.

I will say when Spyderco makes a knife with XYZ steel you can bet it is made of XYZ steel. I have never had a bad heat treat from a Spyderco knife. Wherever Spyderco has a knife made it is Spyderco that QC's it and warranty's it. I have almost 3 decades of carrying and using Spydercos too.

Joe

 

[craytab]

Jealousy, sour grapes, and complaining about already cheap goods isn't a good look. Then throw in the insult to spyderco and the support of a company that actively steals from them? Some folks have no decorum. All this before we even deal with the very flawed arguments a couple folks are making. Coincidence they are two of the biggest clone supporters on the forum? I say no.

 

[JBC6650]

You owe Sal and Eric an apology for this fairy tale you've concocted to justify your own agenda. This is just pure blatant slander from a true piece of shit member. If you don't like them or if you haven't worked hard enough in your life to buy the range of quality Spyderco puts out, that's on you GarbageFan take your pissing and moaning somewhere else.

 

[miltmaldo]

The reason for the price hike was the MAP . MSRP has not change much but MAP is the difference.

Sal and Erick are stand up owner and I believe they care for their customers and to lie or cheat customers over a few cents doesn’t make any sense to me .

 

[Dave from State Farm]

Chokwe with stabilized lacewood:

 

[goldie]

I dont think theres any lying about their prices, thats their price,either you buy it or you dont.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Spyderco makes some great knives and has been driving innovation in the industry for a long time. That's not in question. Commenting just on the Tenacious being overpriced, is that really a question? It's a $50 knife in 8Cr13Mov and it's 2020. The non-steel material differences on the RAT might have mattered once upon a time but these days, features like G10 scales and actions that run on ball bearings can be found on ultra-cheap Chinese knives in junk steels like 3Cr13.

Here are some more clear-cut comparisons:

The Tangram Santa Fe from Kizer costs less than $30. Fit and finish is good. Their Acuto 440 holds a better edge and is more corrosion resistant than 8Cr13Mov without being difficult to sharpen.

The Petrified Fish 818 costs less than $30. It has G10, bearings, and an incredible action. Their Chinese D2 holds a much better edge than 8Cr13Mov. My only complaint with this one is that the inner scale edges (nested liners) benefited from a little filing. Of course, the same can be said about the Byrd Meadowlark, which costs about the same and uses 8Cr13Mov.

CJRB has a lot of knives that cost less than the Tenacious. Some, like the sub-$40 Feldspars, have received widespread acclaim. In my own experience, fit and finish is okay, action is decent, and their Chinese D2 holds a nice edge.

All of the sub-$50 Civivi knives...

I haven't tried any of these but Ruike has a good reputation. Here are all of their knives that cost less than a Tenacious on BladeHQ. They use either 12C27 or 14C28N:
https://www.bladehq.com/cat--RUIKE-Knives--2547#/filter:price:*:49

The point is that in 2020, the Tenacious in 8Cr13Mov is ludicrously overpriced at $50. Heck, the Byrd Meadowlark in 8Cr13Mov is ridiculous at its current price. Competition has really ramped up in the sub-$50 category. Companies like Spyderco, Kershaw, and CRKT have fallen way behind the times with overpriced knives in 8Cr13Mov. I'd love to see that change.

I know you are your biggest fan but can I ask what your manufacturing experience is?

Comparing Spyderco's Chinese made knives to Chinese based companies is far from an even playing field. The premise of this entire thread is ignorant at best. How much does Spyderco spend just on legal expenses trying to counter Chinese counterfeits? That's operating cost. And it goes way beyond materials and base labor costs. HR, HSE, QA, etc. that are standard, and often required, components of western manufacturing add costs.

Do you people think Sal just grabbed whatever Chinese shop came down the road? More than likely he is working with a manufacturer that pays a higher wage, has standards above the norm, and can be trusted.

And yes, essentially all Chinese manufacturing has been and largely is subsidized by the government. In my industry I know of multi-million dollar plants built for free by the government and then the company being provided up to 75% subsidies on all operating costs for five years.

Here's a thought for you and the OP, go start your own knife company. Go do just what Sal, Buck, de Asis, Thompson, Reeve, and so, so many others have done. They started with nothing and built companies that employ thousands of people, provide products that are so ubiquitous that they are considered the norm and standard, and that are routinely praised and criticized. Go on. Start your company. Outsource to China if you want. Report back.

 

[Chronovore]

I don't think you have proven your point. Especially with the 12C27 and 14C28. Those alloys can be blank formed, an inexpensive process. They are just stamped. You have to machine 8Cr13MoV. Machining a blade is significantly more expensive.

Price is much more a function of manufacturing process plus fit, finish and design than one of materials used.

Plus Spyderco knives are designed in the US and their marketing department is also in the US. That adds to the costs that Chinese firms do not have.

I can't speak to fit and finish, since I don't have any of the knives you mention. But I do know that Spyderco holds high fit and finish standards and they ensure that the blades receive an optimal heat treat.

The original argument presented was ridiculously flawed. Yours is not much better.

The title and original post is obviously inflammatory. I have no interest in defending that person or rudeness in general. As I said, I only stepped in here to discuss certain knives being overpriced.

I think the argument I make is sound. I listed a bunch of newer knives that cost less than the Tenacious and are made with better materials. I hoped to put the argument in historical context. The Tenacious might have represented a much better bargain before all these newer knives existed. The issue is that now they do exist. So relative to the current market, the Tenacious is radically expensive for its steel.

While I'm guessing that most of the knives I mentioned would out-cut a Tenacious, I don't own one for comparison. However, I do own a Byrd Meadowlark in 8Cr13Mov. I can say with confidence that those other knives I own do hold a better edge. (Other qualities like great actions aren't a fair comparison for the Meadowlark.) Coincidentally, a common theme in reviews for the Meadowlark from a few years is that it's a decent knife for $20. I'd agree with that, both back then and in the current market. The problem is that the Meadowlark doesn't cost $20 anymore. It costs $28.70, which I think is the MAP. That's more than I paid for the Santa Fe or the 818!

As Eli Chaps pointed out with unnecessary rudeness, I'm no expert on manufacturing but I think you raise an important question. If 14C28N is easier or less expensive to use than 8Cr13Mov, and is a better performer than 8Cr13Mov, then why not use 14C28N instead of 8Cr13Mov? If the Tenacious used 14C28N at $50, I wouldn't be having this conversation. I'd have one in my pocket!

 

[knarfeng]

If 14C28N is easier or less expensive to use than 8Cr13Mov, and is a better performer than 8Cr13Mov, then why not use 14C28N instead of 8Cr13Mov?

Because it isn't.

 

[Eli Chaps]

...
As Eli Chaps pointed out with unnecessary rudeness, I'm no expert on manufacturing but I think you raise an important question. If 14C28N is easier or less expensive to use than 8Cr13Mov, and is a better performer than 8Cr13Mov, then why not use 14C28N instead of 8Cr13Mov? If the Tenacious used 14C28N at $50, I wouldn't be having this conversation. I'd have one in my pocket!

Bah. I think I was quite restrained. So beyond your perception of rudeness, you want to address all the manufacturing points I made?

 

[knarfeng]

I'm no expert on manufacturing

Then you have no business arguing that a knife costs more than you think it should. You have no basis for understanding what drives the cost of a knife.

 

[Eli Chaps]

Then you have no business arguing that a knife costs more than you think it should. You have no basis for understanding what drives the cost of a knife.

This x1000!

 

[AntDog]

I have yet to see any lies from Sal. That said I'm unsure what the point of this post is. Are we supposed to grab torches and pitchforks now?

By the way I've heard explanations about how certain countries keep their currency value artificially low to benefit the trade. Never heard one complaining about material costs. If I was to attempt to make the argument that someone was lying I'd want proof of the lies to include in the presentation and this one for sure has none.

I will say when Spyderco makes a knife with XYZ steel you can bet it is made of XYZ steel. I have never had a bad heat treat from a Spyderco knife. Wherever Spyderco has a knife made it is Spyderco that QC's it and warranty's it. I have almost 3 decades of carrying and using Spydercos too.

Joe

Absolutely. This thread is bunk. You can believe Spyderco’s steel designations. Ganzo and most other Chinese manufacturers - nope.

Ganzo 440C is not 440C.

Recycled Hyundai fenders is my guess. It sure ain’t 440C.

This is the only Ganzo in my house. Why? My ol lady wanted it. I wouldn’t allow that trash in my home otherwise.

 

[Steely_Gunz]

I don't see the point in these threads. Companies are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

A company like Spyderco: Innovative, high attention to detail, senior management interacts with it's customer base across multiple platforms. It has various pricepoints ranging from higher end down to working man. Its an American company that does its best to fill all needs from those wanting a knife made totally stateside to those requiring a more affordable price point by splitting the difference through the use of offshore manufacturing that not only meets their standards but is the fruit of the labors of many, many American workers whose time and effort (and Sal's cost) have gone into designing and overseeing these knives getting made.

In my mind, I cannot ever remember the Tenacious being less than a $50 knife. Yes, the Byrd line was cheaper in the 20s, but all of the Spyderco branded knives made in China hovered around the $50+ price point, to my knowledge. I paid $25 for my Resilience. It was clearnaced at Walmart. It was an incredible knife, but my brother wanted it more than I did, so it has been his hard use work knife for 4 or 5 months.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say that no mod scrambled the OP account. We simply don't have the power to do so. We have no power short of editing the posts and issuing infractions/bans that are made here on the boards. Savvy mods can do an IP check to sleuth out if a poster may be a returning banned member. Spark does not equip us with magical computers nor pay for us to get a degree in White Hat/Black Hat hacking skills.

There is a lot of energy being put into a thread that is a non-issue.

Edit to add a pic of my brand new Manix 2

 

[jbmonkey]

Absolutely. This thread is bunk. You can believe Spyderco’s steel designations. Ganzo and most other Chinese manufacturers - nope.

Ganzo 440C is not 440C.

Recycled Hyundai fenders is my guess. It sure ain’t 440C.

This is the only Ganzo in my house. Why? My ol lady wanted it. I wouldn’t allow that trash in my home otherwise.

yep. it is a mystery steel. I own a few of them over the years to see whats what. from their pretend 440c to mystery d2. none compare to a quality made knife with proper heat treat.

Hyundai body panels are higher quality steel than ganzo uses.

 

[Ganzofan]

I simply question Tenacious went from sub 30 to 50-60, almost a 100% increase while Rat 1 actually decreased in price during the same time.

Ontario is also an American company, likely with all the overhead expenses you guys mentioned in previous threads. And Rat1 is made in the more expensive Taiwan.

Logic dictates something does not add up here with regard to Tenacious' price increase and by the Rat1 comparison I'm pretty sure it ain't due to increase to material cost. If that was the case Ontario will loose money on every Rat1 it sells.

One person mentioned inflation and used car cost as example. But he failed to see the Rat1 comparison. If a Chevy Truck and Ford Truck cost thr same 10 years ago, but the Chevy truck today is double in price while the Ford truck cost less than it did 10 years ago while both companies made the trucks with the same materials. Then the difference is not due to inflation smart guy?!

Not a single person who posted so far have countered my original argument and have only bashed me for my screen name, bashed China, supported spyderco because they make great stuff and Sal is good to his customers etc...

This is simply a comparison of two similar American knife companies making two similar knives and likely the truth in their price discrepancy developed over the years have to do with acceptable profit margin each company is willing to accept. And not the stated PR verbatim of material cost increase.