Steel quality and snobbism.

[hardheart]

I'm of the opinion today that heat treatment is more important than steel choice.

I disagree. A good heat treat can and should be applied to any alloy, so the alloy with the better properties from that heat treat is better. Whether or not to apply a good heat treat is not even a question or option if the manufacturer actually cares about making a good product. And once you own a knife, if you want the heat treat changed, you can do that/have it done. Same with shape and edge geometry. You have to have a new blade made if you want to change the alloy, that much is permanent.

 

[gooeytek]

I disagree. A good heat treat can and should be applied to any alloy, so the alloy with the better properties from that heat treat is better. Whether or not to apply a good heat treat is not even a question or option if the manufacturer actually cares about making a good product. And once you own a knife, if you want the heat treat changed, you can do that/have it done. Same with shape and edge geometry. You have to have a new blade made if you want to change the alloy, that much is permanent.

That's an excellent point there, starting out with a good platform is key. Application of the right techniques can follow and be modified forward.

 

[Gator97]

There is more to supers steels than a mere "selling point". Alloys besides begin expensive are more difficult to work with, heat treatment protocols are more complicated and require more sophisticated equipment, higher working temperatures causing more wear on the equipment and obviously high temperatures and more(or longer, or both) cycles mean more energy, which also costs money. It's more time and resource consuming, and it's not that simple to tell without knowing exact details what is more profitable for the factories, super steels or good old trusty "insert any today's average/budget steel here".
I dunno about knife factories, but I do know from custom makers I've worked with that it's easier to make several knives from simpler steel than one from S125V, S110V, m390 etc. Profit from one knife is less, plus you still have more wear on your tools. Mistakes, accidents, etc are far more costly. Because of all that, there's very few makers wiling to take on all those problems and work with "super steels".
Factory knives are obviously cheaper to make, simply due to mass production factors, but then again, the same mass production factors apply to budget alloys. Nothing wrong with profitability, after all that's why businesses exist. Nevertheless, progress is necessary and as usual it's associated with risks and costs. Dismissing new materials based on "old stuff is good enough" or as "sales tricks" doesn't do any good neither for makers nor for users IMHO.

It is unfair to makers(both custom and factory) to simply disregard all the research and increased risks, expenses, time, etc just as sales trick. From what I can tell, budget steels with simple HT are easier and make more profitable items. I can't exclude the possibility of someone putting out a knife made out of some super steel with very low quality HT to increase profits, but I doubt that's the pattern generally. I really don't think Spyderco or Benchmade profits are affected in any significant way by selling 200-300 knives made out the next super steel. It's what it is, small number of knives primarily designed for enthusiasts, and ideally, those who can appreciate and utilize whatever increased performance that alloy can provide.

Yeah, not all super steels work for knives as promised or expected, there's always hype and incorrect information, it often takes time to get all the details right, but that's hardly specific to knives, happens in any industry and it's part of the progress whether we like it or not.

 

[Gator97]

I'm of the opinion today that heat treatment is more important than steel choice. Steel choice is still important, but much less so than heat treatment. A poor steel given a good heat treatment will almost always outperform a knife made from good steel, but given a poor heat treatment.

I honestly do not understand, why is that when we compare super steels to conventional ones, super steels always end up with bad HT and old stuff has to have the best ht What kind of comparison is that anyway.
Yes, I know proper HT of the modern alloys is more time consuming, demands better equipment, etc, but still, that's hardly a good reason to compare defective product with a good one and draw conclusions about material performance based on that. HT is important for every alloy. Otherwise, it's the same as comparing broken knife with a good one.

 

[JBS TOOLMAKER]

I honestly do not understand, why is that when we compare super steels to conventional ones, super steels always end up with bad HT and old stuff has to have the best ht What kind of comparison is that anyway.
Yes, I know proper HT of the modern alloys is more time consuming, demands better equipment, etc, but still, that's hardly a good reason to compare defective product with a good one and draw conclusions about material performance based on that. HT is important for every alloy. Otherwise, it's the same as comparing broken knife with a good one.

Super steels don't really end up with bad heat treat it's just that most of the old ones we have the bugs worked out.
Understand, if a customer says to me" I want a chopper made of D-2 " I might suggest a differant material, but if they insist on D-2 no problem, my heat treat process will be differant than for a skinner.
Some of the new steels just havn't been experimented with enough to know what will work best for a given application.

 

[cziv]

Super steels don't really end up with bad heat treat it's just that most of the old ones we have the bugs worked out.
Understand, if a customer says to me" I want a chopper made of D-2 " I might suggest a differant material, but if they insist on D-2 no problem, my heat treat process will be differant than for a skinner.
Some of the new steels just havn't been experimented with enough to know what will work best for a given application.

It's about refining the treatment over time as an alloy ages or "get's older" compared to the "new" Ssteels not having every nuance figured out yet such as use, blade geometry, grind, then heat treat, etc. or "all the bugs worked out yet" - is that some of what you're saying?

 

[JBS TOOLMAKER]

It's about refining the treatment over time as an alloy ages or "get's older" compared to the "new" Ssteels not having every nuance figured out yet such as use, blade geometry, grind, then heat treat, etc. or "all the bugs worked out yet" - is that some of what you're saying?

That is exactly what I'm saying.

 

[cziv]

That is exactly what I'm saying.

Thanks for the reply. :thumbup:

 

[Gator97]

Super steels don't really end up with bad heat treat it's just that most of the old ones we have the bugs worked out.

Yes, which is part of normal process. Old and tried stuff is easier to work with and less risky. Nothing knife specific in that.

Understand, if a customer says to me" I want a chopper made of D-2 " I might suggest a differant material, but if they insist on D-2 no problem, my heat treat process will be differant than for a skinner. Some of the new steels just havn't been experimented with enough to know what will work best for a given application.

I understand that and I fully expect honest and thorough assessment, recommendations etc from the maker.

 

[JBS TOOLMAKER]

Also, keep in mind most of these steels are not developed just for knives. So the industry standard heat treat may not be suitable for knives.

 

[Rob_Angerer]

With knives I went the opposite way. Started with high end super steels and have gone backwards to o1, 1095 and so forth. Are they less? I don't think so really. They may require upkeep but if you're like me and sharpen badly, I can appreciate a steel that is easier to sharpen.

Steels that are easier to sharpen are also easier to dull. It's a simple law of symmetry.

So, do you like sharpening knives? If so, you will be happy with steels that are easy to sharpen. If you would rather use a knife than sharpen the knife, then you may choose to learn to sharpen effectively, e.g. using diamond-laden sharpeners, and appreciate the longevity that hard, vanadium carbide-laden steels have to offer those who can sharpen effectively.

Everybody gets what they want with knives... either an easy-to-sharpen knife, or one that doesn't need to be sharpened as often. (or something in between).

For me, I keep a couple knives in the bullpen, near my coffee table so I can sharpen when I have some downtime in front of the tube, and so I am nearly always carrying something that is quite sharp. Plus, I have a short attention span, and demand high quality entertainment provided by carrying something different daily... something sharp that stays sharp.

 

[JBS TOOLMAKER]

Steels that are easier to sharpen are also easier to dull. It's a simple law of symmetry.

KABOOM!!
Well said.

 

[Gator97]

Also, keep in mind most of these steels are not developed just for knives. So the industry standard heat treat may not be suitable for knives.

I know, I've got few thousand alloy names in the steel database, and less than 2 dozen were developed specifically for knives. Still, the reality is that various steels work in various knives with various success Experimenting and research is to discover which alloy is better for one knife or another, best HT for knives of different types, etc.
Anyway, I have no problem with any of that, the argument was against disregarding newer or not so new steels(but new kn knives) as sales pitch or ineffective w/o solid testing results, just they are not "good, old" steels. That's all.

 

[hardheart]

Steels that are easier to sharpen are also easier to dull. It's a simple law of symmetry.

If only things were so simple. Grindability and wear resistance are two different properties measured in steel. A higher carbide fraction but composed of smaller carbides means and easier to sharpen but longer lasting edge. A better G-ratio while giving a longer edge life.

 

[Rob_Angerer]

If only things were so simple. Grindability and wear resistance are two different properties measured in steel. A higher carbide fraction but composed of smaller carbides (no matter which type, V, Mo, W, Cr) means and easier to sharpen but longer lasting edge. A better G-ratio while giving a longer edge life.

I'm not sure what you mean by G-ratio since you didn't specify... but I will second the idea that high carbide fraction knives are harder to sharpen. And a heat treat that provides for smaller carbides means that it'll be easier to sharpen relative to it's resistance to edge wear.

I use diamond sharpening "stones" most of the time. I figure that once I get set up, and start sharpening, that is half the task, and the other half is the actual activity of scrubbing away at the edge.

A good edge can be re-sharpened with a few swipes across ceramic sticks and a strop. The initial work goes into establishing the edge profile you desire, and then it's easier from there onward.

So, edge holding is, simplified, resistance to edge rolling, and resistance to abrasive wear, and resistance to chipping:

• Resistance to edge rolling is mostly helped by hardness
• Resistance to abrasive wear is mostly helped by having hard, wear resistant carbides well embedded in a hard matrix (vanadium, tungsten, and molybdenum carbides, and to a lesser degree, chrome carbides).
• Edge holding under impact use (e.g. chopping) is aided by toughness, if the goal is to avoid chipping, with a preference to roll the edge rather than chip.

 

[hardheart]

I'm not sure what you mean by G-ratio since you didn't specify... but I will second the idea that high carbide fraction knives are harder to sharpen. And a heat treat that provides for smaller carbides means that it'll be easier to sharpen relative to it's resistance to edge wear.

G-ratio is the ratio of steel removed to abrasive lost. Heat treat doesn't do a lot to the carbides unless the temps are pushed high. If you want small carbides, you initially produce the steel with small carbides, like using PM technology.

 

[PitbullShogun]

havent read through allot of this thread. probably going to though. seems interesting enough. all specifics aside (heat treatment, handle materials, Etc.) here is my take on it.


the knife has been human kind's most valuble asset throughout our history. we may be snobish about our steel, but for good reason. as better materials will outlast crappier ones by a longshot.

think about these two scenarios. would you rather have a knife made out fo 4116 krupp stainless steel, or M390 stainless steel?

1: your stuck in the woods with nothing but some basic survival gear, and a knife. you have to fight to survive and your trusty knife is sure to aid you in your adventure to survival.

2: your a LEO who uses a knfie for utility or tactical purpouses often, and because you work hard, long hours, you dont want to have to worry about resharpening your knife everytime you use it because you work hard enough as it is.

 

[hardheart]

think about these two scenarios. would you rather have a knife made out fo 4116 krupp stainless steel, or M390 stainless steel?

1: your stuck in the woods with nothing but some basic survival gear, and a knife. you have to fight to survive and your trusty knife is sure to aid you in your adventure to survival.

2: your a LEO who uses a knfie for utility or tactical purpouses often, and because you work hard, long hours, you dont want to have to worry about resharpening your knife everytime you use it because you work hard enough as it is.

1. 4116, the lower wear resistance makes sharpening quicker and easier, especially if I have to rely on natural stones or random objects to sharpen with.

2. 4116, I didn't make a lot as a cop, despite being in the highest paid municipal department in the state. Having to do something like pry open a door isn't what M390 was alloyed for anyway. I worked 12 hour shifts and had 3-4 days off a week, plenty of time to re-sharpen.

 

[singularity35]

All I will say is we can't compare Production knives to Custom knives in any way.

... My personal opinion is, if you want a good knife made from the newest super steel( if it's availible to the public) please buy custom. You will get the true full potential of xxxx steel from a maker you trust.

Do I take this to mean that only in custom knives do the super steels matter? Are you guys saying that in production knives, super steels don't really make a difference and that you might as well not get a knife in a super steel if you are getting a production knife?

 

[PitbullShogun]

1. 4116, the lower wear resistance makes sharpening quicker and easier, especially if I have to rely on natural stones or random objects to sharpen with.

2. 4116, I didn't make a lot as a cop, despite being in the highest paid municipal department in the state. Having to do something like pry open a door isn't what M390 was alloyed for anyway. I worked 12 hour shifts and had 3-4 days off a week, plenty of time to re-sharpen.

then i guess the real answer is.... its ALL about prefrence.

but then that would have to mean that no one steel is "Better" then another