Steel quality and snobbism.

[james terrio]

Understand, if a customer says to me" I want a chopper made of D-2 " I might suggest a differant material, but if they insist on D-2 no problem, my heat treat process will be differant than for a skinner.

Exactly! D2 would be one of my last choices for a heavy chopper, but one certainly could be built with it. In addition to the appropriate HT, one would have to consider geometry as well. (incidentally, going back to my earlier argument, I recently read a noted maker/author proclaim that "if D2 hit the scene today it would be regarded as a 'super steel' " and I think he's absolutely right. It has a very high carbon and chromium content, lots of carbides, and *gasp* it is even available in a PM version! Yet it's regarded as an old standy, even a mundane boring allloy, simply because it's been around a while )

So, edge holding is, simplified, resistance to edge rolling, and resistance to abrasive wear, and resistance to chipping:

• Resistance to edge rolling is mostly helped by hardness
• Resistance to abrasive wear is mostly helped by having hard, wear resistant carbides well embedded in a hard matrix (vanadium, tungsten, and molybdenum carbides, and to a lesser degree, chrome carbides).
• Edge holding under impact use (e.g. chopping) is aided by toughness, if the goal is to avoid chipping, with a preference to roll the edge rather than chip.

(emphasis added) I concur. Simply hardening every steel to 60+Rc is only part of the story. I would add three more factors, in rapidly-decreasing order of importance:

• Edge geometry. A thin, very acute edge will not hold up as long as a thicker, less acute one (all other factors being equal)
• The edge itself: was it set with a 400 grit belt and given a quick stropping, or is it highly-polished with super-fine waterstones? The former will retain its toothy aggressiveness longer than the latter will keep its super-keenness.
• Corrosion-resistance. Rusty edges don't cut very well, no matter how finely they were sharpened in the first place.

The upshot is, using "super steels" with higher toughness and/or wear-resistance and/or corrosion-resistance allows the manu or maker to achieve harder, high-performance edges and bevels that truly cut well, without sacrificing strength or toughness at the edge. Just as they will simply outlast simpler steels, given the same geometry.

Do I take this to mean that only in custom knives do the super steels matter? Are you guys saying that in production knives, super steels don't really make a difference and that you might as well not get a knife in a super steel if you are getting a production knife?

Absolutely not! I would happily pay more for a good design in say, CPM-154 than for the same model in 420HC. In fact, I wouldn't even consider the 420HC model, even though I liked the design. It's vitally important that manu's offer their finest design in the best steels from time to time, it raises the bar, pushes them to improve their general quality, and creates interest in their entire lines.

Wait... scratch that... forget all factory knives! Only buy customs!

 

[Ankerson]

Do I take this to mean that only in custom knives do the super steels matter? Are you guys saying that in production knives, super steels don't really make a difference and that you might as well not get a knife in a super steel if you are getting a production knife?

No, but to get the highest possible performance out of them or any steel then Custom is the way to go, but one has to choose the right maker.

Custom vs Production = Apples to Oranges.

 

[singularity35]

No, but to get the highest possible performance out of them or any steel then Custom is the way to go, but one has to choose the right maker.

Custom vs Production = Apples to Oranges.

Yes, I get this but say, I have a choice to make between a regular s30v para 2 and an M390 one, will the difference in performance be negligible?

 

[hardheart]

They also need to be makers who do their own heat treating with quality equipment. Sending a blade to Bos, Peter, TKS, etc. isn't going to produce anything different than what the good manufacturers are pushing out. Someone with high/low temp salts, digitally controlled ovens with Omega thermocouples or PIDs, quench plates, dewars, Cryofurnace, etc. An oxyacetylene torch with a rosebud, a bucket of used ATF, and a toaster oven isn't suitable for "super" steels.

Also, the point of new alloys is to generate desirable properties in steels without jumping through hoops. You can leave 52100 in LN for 8 hours plus and supposedly boost wear resistance 400%, or you can just use a different alloy and do the recommended heat treat and get 1600% the wear resistance.

 

[Ankerson]

Yes, I get this but say, I have a choice to make between a regular s30v para 2 and an M390 one, will the difference in performance be negligible?

That's apples to apples, production to production so yes there will be a difference.

 

[Ankerson]

They also need to be makers who do their own heat treating with quality equipment. Sending a blade to Bos, Peter, TKS, etc. isn't going to produce anything different than what the good manufacturers are pushing out. Someone with high/low temp salts, digitally controlled ovens with Omega thermocouples or PIDs, quench plates, dewars, Cryofurnace, etc. An oxyacetylene torch with a rosebud, a bucket of used ATF, and a toaster oven isn't suitable for "super" steels.

Also, the point of new alloys is to generate desirable properties in steels without jumping through hoops. You can leave 52100 in LN for 8 hours plus and supposedly boost wear resistance 400%, or you can just use a different alloy and do the recommended heat treat and get 1600% the wear resistance.

Yeah, true, that's why i mentioned doing research on the makers.

 

[singularity35]

That's apples to apples, production to production so yes there will be a difference.

Thanks.

 

[cziv]

Excellent thread "gentlemen." :thumbup:

 

[matt1987]

Cars and knives are a bad analogy -- unless you can afford a hundred or more cars, like many of us have bought that many knives.

This is Bladeforums, we are knife hobbyists we are knife knuts.. For most of us, it is not only the utility. It is not survival. It's fun. We enjoy the steels, the designs, the sharpening, the experimenting.

And we do have simpler, cheaper, very effective knives for ordinary use. The only "knife" I used today was my Victorinox Farmer. I popped the top off a soda bottle with the bottle opener. No reason to pick one over the other.

I agree. The new steels make the hobby fun and fresh. It would be boring if companies just used 440c or something. In contrast, I do sometimes feel it's all a money racket. A new steel might come out with 2% better edge retention than steel Y, and charge an arm and leg for it. Even tho, Steel Y is perfectly fine for 90% of people. But overall I enjoy trying out new steels while respecting older carbon steels.

 

[mr.trooper]

Steel quality does matter some - but mostly in the sense that the steel needs to fit the purpose of the knife in question.

Knives that see heavy use for utilitarian or multi-role slicing DO make excellent use of the super steels. Knives that are used to open envelopes and packages? Not so much.

On the other end of the spectrum, something like a defensive dagger - especially a blade designed for thrusting - would be perfectly fine with 420, as long as the steel was heat treated properly.

The real problem is when you get trapped into thinking that EVERYTHING you own NEEDS to have "Xyz-123" steel du jour in order to be useful, or "a respectable knife".

 

[gdwtvb]

I just stumbled across this thread and I first must admit that I only skimmed it.

It touches on something that I have noticed pretty regularly on many forums, and about many things. The armchair hunter that desires a gun that can shoot three bullets inside of an inch at three hundred yards, but he can't shoot well enough to keep them on the target at that range. I see guys comparing how many TENS OF THOUSANDS of rounds that a gun can handle. Sorry, I don't see the point. If I am going to spend fifteen thousand dollars on ammo, I can spring for a couple extra guns. I see people regularly stressing about which knife lock will last without fail the longest. I'm not sure that I need a folding knife that can be used for the next four generations of my family, be lost in the field, and dug up by our ancestors in a thousand years and still be fully functional. On a philosophical note I wonder if this is a subconcious rejection of our current throw-away society. I am just as guilty as anyone else. (own a Busse, had Sebenza's and regularly drool over the Spyderco Sprints.)

I've carried a knife in my pocket for almost thirty years. They have all cut what I wanted. Sometimes it took longer than I desired or they weren't as comfortable but they all got the job done. (And many were of questionable quality) The only one that ever failed was a Buck crosslock. (lock failed and I cut myself...It wouldn't have happened if I had a slipjoint because I would have been more careful. My fault as much as the knife.) I still occasionally buy the high end stuff, but after seven years I sold the Sebenza's. I find my tastes changed. The last three knife purchases have been well under a hundred dollars each. It's a great time to be a knive knut, we've got it good.

Some people are just snobs. I hope that I can avoid looking down on people or the things that they buy or use just to inflate my own ego.

Merry Christmas,

Grizz

 

[Ankerson]

Steel quality does matter some - but mostly in the sense that the steel needs to fit the purpose of the knife in question.

Knives that see heavy use for utilitarian or multi-role slicing DO make excellent use of the super steels. Knives that are used to open envelopes and packages? Not so much.

You brought up a good point....

Knives that do see a lot of real use will benefit the most from the Super Steels because it's during real use that they really shine.

One really can't tell how good a steel is or isn't if they never really cut anything with it or wore out the lock from flipping it 100's of times a day before it ever would need to be sharpened.

The Super Steels need to be USED to show their true value.

If they aren't going to use them then an Aluminum or brass blade would be just fine because they never cut anything with them in the 1st place.

They sure don't need a Super Steel for a flip toy or a pocket ornament.

 

[james terrio]

On a philosophical note I wonder if this is a subconcious rejection of our current throw-away society.

That's a good point as well. In my case the rejection is very conscious. FWIW that has nothing to do with "super-steels", I own/use an excellent factory knife in 1084, and make/use knives with it too.

I'm drifting again, but I'd like to address your valid, but slightly skewed comparison to $5,000 sub-MOA rifles and $15K worth of ammunition... really good handmade knives (super-steel or not) can be bought with one minimum-wage paycheck. Great knives are just about the only heirloom-quality things left where a working class guy can get truly outstanding craftsmanship and quality without re-financing his house (or spending all his free time learning to use the darn thing).

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I disagree. A good heat treat can and should be applied to any alloy, so the alloy with the better properties from that heat treat is better. Whether or not to apply a good heat treat is not even a question or option if the manufacturer actually cares about making a good product. And once you own a knife, if you want the heat treat changed, you can do that/have it done. Same with shape and edge geometry. You have to have a new blade made if you want to change the alloy, that much is permanent.

I should have specified that I consider heat treatment more important than steel choice given that the steel is cutlery grade. And there's a lot of variation in how different manufacturers treat their steels. As mentioned earlier in the thread, you can find the same steel used in widely varying roles depending on how it's heat treated. And when it comes to shape and edge geometry you're not quite right. You can only remove the material, so if you actually need more in an area or add to the profile of a design you still need a whole new knife. There are lots of factors that are absolutely essential to making a good knife, and folks place different emphasis on those elements. All I'm saying is that I personally place heat treatment over steel on my list.

 

[JBS TOOLMAKER]

They also need to be makers who do their own heat treating with quality equipment. Sending a blade to Bos, Peter, TKS, etc. isn't going to produce anything different than what the good manufacturers are pushing out. Someone with high/low temp salts, digitally controlled ovens with Omega thermocouples or PIDs, quench plates, dewars, Cryofurnace, etc. An oxyacetylene torch with a rosebud, a bucket of used ATF, and a toaster oven isn't suitable for "super" steels.

You are correct. I couldn't have said it better.
Always research the maker. Ask for referances. Educate yourself.

 

[Tyronethepro]

If I like a knife, I buy it. I have a Griptilian from 154CM, Buck Vantage in S30V, CRKT Apache in ATS-34, then I have my 110 in 420HC and various knives in Chinese steels as well as blades in AUS-4, 6 and 8. Then various other steels on blades. No Name Steels got me through 6 years of knife collecting, I just enjoy my super steels because they last long, then again so does a well treated Aus-8 and 420HC. Never have been a steel snob, never will be. I make customs from l6 and 1070 carbon a lot of the time, and there's no problem with those steels either.

 

[foofie]

... the engineering of super steels is a wonderful thing in our search for the perfect " do it all " blade steel. I hope we find it before someone invents the light sabre.

Great thread - agree with most - except the above
All I know is that even after I buy my first light saber, I will still carry a good knife in my pocket. It might get moved to LFP, though.

 

[VA27]

Before I even start my dissertation, I guess must confess I have been guilty of this many times in the past. Not anymore.

What do, any of you all (or me, for that matter), use your knives for? Maybe cutting some cardboard, strip a few wires and, once in a while, going outdoors and pretend you are in a survival situation. That's all.

Do we **REALLY** need a super-mega-fancy-brand-new-steel for just that? I don't think so. In fact, even the cheapest knives with the worst steel ever would be more than enough for 99.9% of the tasks at hand.

Let's reflect for a brief moment... Not so long ago, maybe just a century ago or so, a man couldn't survive without his knife. And I'm talking about **REAL** survival, life-or-death scenarios. Prepping food, building shelter, making campfires, dressing animals, making cordage, carving wood, clean fish and self defense. On a daily basis!!!

And I guess it would be a safe bet to say they made it remarkably well with their not-so-fancy knives. Otherwise, neither of us would be here today, would we?

So if the not-so-good-steels did suffice for our ancestors, why on Earth wouldn't an AUS-8 knife be enough to cut some cardboard, strip a few wires and going outdoors and pretend you are in a survival situation?

Even the cheapest Kershaw or Boker models are waaaaaay better than our ancestors' knives. And we won't even remotely abuse them the same way they did with theirs.

So, from now on, I solemnly swear not to be a steel snob and discard perfectly valid knives just because they are not made from the latest-super-hyper-mega-steel.

Welcome back to sanity and reality! Almost any modern tool steel, 440C or 12C27 will do ANYTHING that I require of it. There are even some knives that I really like but refuse to buy, simply because they're made of some 'supercalifragilisticexpealidocious' steel that if you don't have it all your babies will be born bald and with no teeth!

But, unlike some, I can sharpen a knife.

 

[Gator97]

Welcome back to sanity and reality! Almost any modern tool steel, 440C or 12C27 will do ANYTHING that I require of it.

If I read that correctly, everything that 440C and 12C27 can't do goes straight into the realm of insanity and surreal?

But, unlike some, I can sharpen a knife.

Me too I like thin edges and prefer ones that hold more than an hour. Crazy, surreal stuff....

 

[Bo T]

" if you don't have it all your babies will be born bald and with no teeth!.

Women in my family prefer babies without teeth.