Strider Knives, Game Over!

[Horned Toad]

I see it as a bit of a stretch to associate the questions of validity with being done to hurt Strider business. First off all I don't think this has happened at all, and second if in fact the business has been hurt as you say then again this can be directly related to undo delays in verification of records.



STR

You have to only look at the title of this thread for the intent.
Strider Knives, Game Over.

It doesn’t say Duane Dwyer is lying.

Also a large part of the start of this thread was about the value of the knives if this is true.

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

perhaps the best post in this thread...



Innocent till proven guilty... and so far I aint seen anything proven.

To those who wonder why Mick & D wont come here and post something , why would they ? What good would it do ? Ya'll have already handed down your guilty verdict.

I for one can't wait to see Mick & D & Josh at SHOT show in 2008 ( booth 8714 for those of you with so much to ask ).

John,
You seem like a nice guy.
I like your knives and read your posts on lots of forums.
But I have a bone to pick with you.
It is people exactly like you who have created this situation.

Even when confronted with the facts, you brush them off. Hero worship has no place in knife collecting.

You would rather associate with felons and liars just because they make "Cool Knives"?

In life, surround yourself with honorable and honest people. They may not always be the "chosen" ones with the cool toys, great stories and endless appetite for dark beer, but in the long run its a better path!

I guess I don't understand why this is so hard for people to comprehend.

What am I missing? Do you guys really think Mickey (Mick)and Tom (Duane)are your friends? Your "bro's"?

Really?

 

[Spark]

I think in this case it’s because those doing the asking are doing it in a way to do as much damage as possible to the Strider business.

I highly disagree with this; assigning an agenda such as this is very serious. There are much much better ways to get the "word out" than what's happened thus far, so doing "as much damage as possible" is a non-starter. Instead it looks like a natural back-lash to the tall tales that have been told for years.

I have heard that they went after Duane before and that it was shot down then.

This is the first time I've seen anyone questioning Duane Dwyer's background.

This is the first time I've also ever seen records pulled that would belie the "Marine Scout / Sniper with an impressive kill count" stories.

When the records say "Digital Data Technician" and the stories say "Scout / Sniper" and "impressive kill count" which is more likely?

(Then again, I'm not infallible either... I didn't know about the whole Mick Strider thing until that Cold Steel thread. Neither did most other people)

I would think that an outfit like POWNet would have to retain a measure of impartiality in all situations. In this case that doesn’t appear to be true. Everything that is given to them in the defense is forwarded to the parties that are making the claims. The thing to remember is that if the claims are not true you are bashing on a veteran. I would think that you would receive all the info that people think is false. Pull records and contact the aggrieved party and say these are the claims can you disprove them. Then they either can or cant. Then you post your findings on the web. Not someone makes a claim, you cut and paste little snippets from all over the web from people no one knows on your site, and you forward all the info to those making the claim.

I agree they should be impartial as possible, but then, people shouldn't lie in the first place. From what I've seen, they are not making any pronouncements other than what can be backed up by the records, and using quotes from other people - in other words, they've covered their tails very efficiently.

The first time this came up, they did contact Mick Strider regarding the stories - the communication can be read here: http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies313.htm

The contradictions can be read in black and white. Mick said he'd provide records, and didn't. Where's the beef?

Now, 10 or so months later, POW Network put up their information on Duane Dwyer. The FOIA request shows a date of Nov 14, 2007, with an acknowledgement of receipt in August, and who knows when it was submitted. Instead of saying as "damaging as possible" I'd suggest it's "the wheels of bureaucracy turning slowly. If it takes the government time to find the records, there's nothing anyone can do about it.

Next, with regards to "it's only been civilians calling Mick & Duane out", first you need to recognize that unless you are active duty, you are a civilian. I'm a veteran. You are a veteran. Osman is a veteran. But we are all currently civilians.
2nd, it took Mick Strider being sued by Chris Osman over his disparaging Osman's own service record for any of this to even come out.
3rd, see above about trusting people.

Even then, very few people knew about it until the Cold Steel GI Tanto fiasco, and even then, no effort was made on Mick Strider's part to correct any of the information he's posted about combat service, plea bargains, or anything else.

Until I read about the Somalia Plea Bargain, I had no reason to disbelieve anything I'd been told or read. Imagine my surprise when I was able to dig up everything I did in 4 days. From there, the POW Network got his actual service records and lo & behold, the story didn't add up.

Now we're facing the same thing again.

You said it yourself Horned Toad, it should be easy to prove that these allegations are baseless and that it's all a huge misunderstanding. It's only been 10 months since the first set came out. Well, a couple years since the Chris Osman suit.

As for innocent until proven guilty, that's true in a court of law for actual, you know, crimes facing prosecution. Of course, when you are dealing with people telling tales about their past, we don't need 50 prosecutor exhibits and a jury of 12 peers to be able to say "this person isn't telling the truth". The records in question & their own contradictory stories do that well enough.

So in the end, what are the facts? We've got POWNetwork saying Duane Dwyer served as Duane Poland as a Digital Data Technician MOS 5982, with copies of Poland's service record to back it up. We have various other people saying that Duane Dwyer was a Scout Sniper with lots of kills and combat time. Which is it?

 

[STR]

Horntoad. Thank you for the reply and the details.

I agree with you on a lot of the issues. Its very good points. I do want to apologize if my posts seem like I am trying to bash anyone. I feel I've shown I believe in the benefit of the doubt here and in the other threads on this topic. With that said I still don't hesitate to admit that many things have happened, while other things have not happened that could certainly lead one to suspect guilt in this situation as has been stated previously.

However, one thing is clear to me and I want to state this right now so I am sure this is understood. I have no doubt that Mick and Duane are veterans. I know that is the case. Duane was in the Marines and discharged honorably, Mick went to the Army Rangers training school and attended for 11 months and while he didn't complete the class to graduate or get a tab and to my understanding would not qualify for a VA loan with that little time in, and even though he actually went AWOL for a time I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone that would say he is not a veteran, or that Duane is not.

My feelings on claims made, either by others or themselves, posts, the editing, the lost contract with Buck after this blew up and more are still out there for this issue with many questions unanswered. I see no reason why it should be called a witch hunt or bashing when the delays lie solely on those being asked to prove what should be simple things to verify.

I hope like you that this new age of instant information makes it very difficult for posers to get away with this con, at least for long. Unfortunately it seems its actually made it easier for some to copy and create false documents with more proficiency than ever before.

Thanks again for the input.

STR

 

[Horned Toad]

Mick went to the Army Rangers training school and attended for 11 months and while he didn't complete the class to graduate or get a tab and to my understanding would not qualify for a VA loan with that little time in, and even though he actually went AWOL for a time I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone that would say he is not a veteran, or that Duane is not.


STR

STR I think most of your post have been pretty decent and the overall tone of the thread had gotten that way which is why I stated posting. In you post I am just highlighting this part for clarification not to put down the post. It is part of the problem Mick was briefly in the 2nd Ranger Battalion which is very different from Ranger School. It just exacerbates the problem because someone hears something, they don’t fully understand it and pass it on. Now somehow the person the original story was about is supposed to keep track of all this and run around and correct people. Doesn’t always happen. To this day there are people out that that think I brought a hand grenade to school in the 7th grade. I didn’t, I never have had passion of anything like that outside of the military but it was a funny story and no matter how many times I said it wasn’t true the story still followed me around.

 

[John T Wylie Jr]

Even when confronted with the facts, you brush them off.

First off , I aint seen no facts. And my friendship with Strider has zero to do with their background , be it military or other. That never weighed into my decision to buy their product or to be friends with them.

Many years ago at a Vegas show I asked Mick ( cause I was a total newbie to knives and didnt know a buck from a fury ) " So what makes your knives better than his ? " ( pointed to another maker , which i think was Lightfoot.

Micks word were something like " Nothing , they aren't. They are all good knives. Pick em up , feel em , see what feels best to you and buy the one you like best. He makes a great knife ! Are mine better ? I dont think so , just different. " There was no holier than thou attitude , he was honest and told me he didnt think his work was better than anyone elses. Military stuff was never mentioned to me then , and I have been around em a bit and I havent ever heard either talk about it now , nor have I ever heard them badmouth another maker.

No , I aint been in the military , so I never worried about background , still don't. What someone WAS usually isnt who they are now ni most cases. I dont live in the past. I know what Mick & crew have done for me on a personal level , and the discussions I have had with them about life , knifemaking and just things in general.

Sorry , but I dont bail out on a friend just cause someone points their finger.
I have friends that have done some stuff that wasn't right , I didnt throw them under the bus for it , never have , never will. Even my enemies I would help if they needed it.

At the end of the day , it's not what you possess , it's who can you count on when you need it , and that would be friends.

Innocent till proven guilty is all I am saying.

 

[Spark]

Fair enough, John. If you haven't seen facts, I'd suggest you go read this thread first - http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=453852
You'll note that I was pretty careful to source every statement I made.

Then read here:
http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies366.htm

Read the quotes. Follow the links. View the service documents. Then make your own decision. You are right not to take my (or anyone else's) word for it. View the material for yourself. Read what was written by the people in question. Come to your own conclusion. For me, when Mick Strider posted here that he as a combat vet, and had to admit in his lawsuit settlement that he was never in combat, that proved to me he was a liar. When his Somalia claims changed 4 times, that didn't help. When the magazine articles say one thing, and the service records say something else, that really didn't look so good. Now we're seeing something similar happen again.

Nobody is asking you to get rid of your friendship. That said, friendship doesn't trump truth. As for leaving the past in the past, that's all well and good if it's left in the past. Last time this happened, the stories were still coming. Have things changed and people come clean about their real backgrounds?

 

[STR]

Sorry , but I dont bail out on a friend just cause someone points their finger.
I have friends that have done some stuff that wasn't right , I didnt throw them under the bus for it , never have , never will. Even my enemies I would help if they needed it.

John this is a good point. I don't think its been presented here or elsewhere that anyone expects friends to bail on friends. I certainly don't and that is a ridiculous premise I think. I never commented on any of this originally trying to make enemies or to throw anyone under a bus as you say. Yet I was resented, labeled, said to have a 'scewed sense of integrity' and friends bailed on me for simply saying that if the accusations are true then its pretty low. This after I've given full benefit of the doubt the entire time with comments that are well thought out and valid and yet I lost membership in a forum and was cussed by enemies that made themselves enemies by assuming the very things you are bringing up here. You assume that is what is expected or being asked for like its fact. Its not the case.

I like you John. Always have, and I'm certainly not trying to make another friend go south but this assumption is part of the problem. Deal with the facts that are out there. They are there. Records are available. How you can say you don't see any facts is beyond my comprehension.

Most of the issues and opinions here are just that. For example, POWnetwork.org deals with facts. They present them with no other labels or judgements other than the facts presented which is very unlike it is here. All claims of opinions or agendas are read into it on POWnetwork by people making assumptions after that.


STR

 

[STR]

STR I think most of your post have been pretty decent and the overall tone of the thread had gotten that way which is why I stated posting. In you post I am just highlighting this part for clarification not to put down the post. It is part of the problem Mick was briefly in the 2nd Ranger Battalion which is very different from Ranger School. It just exacerbates the problem because someone hears something, they don’t fully understand it and pass it on. Now somehow the person the original story was about is supposed to keep track of all this and run around and correct people. Doesn’t always happen. To this day there are people out that that think I brought a hand grenade to school in the 7th grade. I didn’t, I never have had passion of anything like that outside of the military but it was a funny story and no matter how many times I said it wasn’t true the story still followed me around.

Thank you. I will make note of it. I take it you are saying he graduated and went on to serve then? I thought the records show he did not graduate.

STR

 

[Bronco]

perhaps the best post in this thread...

I suspect, but I don't know

I had to pop back in for a moment because I had an awful thought when I saw John's quote of mine in his post. I used the phrase shown above numerous times for effect so as to better emphasize those areas where I am legitimately under the impression that Mick and Duane have been acting benevolently, even though I personally had (or have) no direct knowledge of such activities. Given the contentious nature of these threads, and the highly personal reactions they evoke, I'd just like to make it clear that my repeated use of the word "suspect" was in no way meant to be a cross forum poke at any of the USN folks. I didn't even make the connection until I saw John's post. I realize that to most folks this may seem like a bit of a silly point to have to make, and certainly no one's complained about it or made reference to it thus far, to the best of my knowledge, but, in retrospect, I probably could have come up with a better turn of phrase. My apologies to Spark if I caused any unnecessary friction here.



(And, as long as I'm already here )

To those who wonder why Mick & D wont come here and post something , why would they ? What good would it do ? Ya'll have already handed down your guilty verdict.

I can certainly understand why you might feel that way, John. I can understand why a lot of people might feel that way. My only response would be that "y'all" is a pretty broad term. Despite the appearances, there remain many of us - folks who seem to be on the "other side" of the issue - who would be the first ones in line demanding that organizations like the POW Network print the necessary retractions and restore the good name of Mick and Duane if we had something of substance to hang our hats on. My first, last and only concern in this matter is to see that our military folks receive the respect that they deserve. I can include Mick and Duane in that category as easily as anyone else who's worn the uniform.

 

[STR]

I can certainly understand why you might feel that way, John. I can understand why a lot of people might feel that way. My only response would be that "y'all" is a pretty broad term. Despite the appearances, there remain many of us - folks who seem to be on the "other side" of the issue - who would be the first ones in line demanding that organizations like the POW Network print the necessary retractions and restore the good name of Mick and Duane if we had something of substance to hang our hats on. My first, last and only concern in this matter is to see that our military folks receive the respect that they deserve. I can include Mick and Duane in that category as easily as anyone else who's worn the uniform.

I second this very strongly. Furthermore I'd be the first to apologize for any misinterpretation of any of my posts where someone read in things that were not there or where I misstated. We are all grown ups here. I suggest that we would all like nothing more than to restore good names accused wrongly and that this is the natural inclination of most good people. I wish no ill will on Mick, Duane, Strider knives or anyone. I simply have a clear set reasoning that the verifications need to be settled and done with ASAP so that healing can begin.

STR

 

[TorzJohnson]

First off , I aint seen no facts.

Do you think the DD214 is fake? Forging a document like that is a crime, and if your friends are being slandered by forged documents, you should press charges and have the POW network staff sent to jail. Let us know how it comes out.

 

[Horned Toad]

Thank you. I will make note of it. I take it you are saying he graduated and went on to serve then? I thought the records show he did not graduate.

STR

The records show the he completed Basic, AIT, Airborne and the Ranger Indoctrination Program, which is a nice little three week smoker that says you can go to a Battalion. He then was assigned to 2nd Battalion. The big question now is the nature of service there. He claims he was injured and was sent off to leg land. The records are not very clear, they show he left but not the why. That is why we over at AR.com are waiting for someone to come along from that time frame who remembers him.

He did not go to Ranger School which is open to soldiers from the entire Army and different from battalion.

 

[Horned Toad]

With out doing a lot of cut and pasting Spark I am going to try and answer questions own the list.


As posted in this tread, there are those that only care about the knives, some that only care about the truth and some in the middle. If they are lying then prove and post it and let the chip fall where they may on the business side. But I have not seen one of these threads yet that doesn’t bring up the demise of their business. If they are lying and their business goes down well then yes that there fault.


Just because you didn’t see the first queries on Duane doesn’t mean they didn’t happen. Especially since it was the same group that went after Mick. It was just a while back.

As for the DD214 it does look bad, but there was a poster on this thread that said he had two files that he knew of. So there is a chance that it is wrong. They also say they went by SSN. I have never felt the need to change my name but my wife just did when we got married, she got a new card and I think a new number, but I have to check. But changing you name but having the same SSN seem counterproductive. So I would like someone to connect the dots between Dwyer and Poland.

As far as POWnet using quotes from one of the accusers who has no military background is pretty weak. Even the quote about what a Ranger is the source are not listed. That’s also a huge debatable in the Ranger Community itself. You get an officer who has just been to Ranger School, he is going to say you have to have a Tab, you get someone from the Regiment and they are going to say time in Bat along with a Tab is op tempo permits. Which is where I stand.





I have to say one thing I will NEVER recognize is that I am just a civilian or a veteran or even a LEO. A good friend of mine summed it best with the phrase “I am not how I am because I am a Ranger, I am a Ranger because of how I am” and till the day I die that will not change. For your argument I will say that there are very few veterans or current active duty military that are making claims. In that group you have one SEAL and you have to dig into his conflicts with SOE gear a then competitor to see where all that goes.

On all the Mick info, I have confronted good friends on all this and they said he is good to go. I talked to a guy that had seem his records and his was response was that they needed to keep digging. The way it was said was that there was more there that had not come to light and it would benefit.

If you look at the top of the POW page it says

Mick Strider
aka Micky Ray Burger

reported
2005
2006
2007

This has been going on three years now or more.


Lastly you say being guilty only applies in a court, well you your self know that in past threads talk of prosecution has come up. Mick page is highlighted in purple which mean it could be prosecuted under the Stolen Valor Act, so I would think they would want to be 100% accurate on every thing.

Next time not so many question in a row please I hate writing


That was pretty quick writing for me so if you need clarification just ask.

 

[STR]

You get an officer who has just been to Ranger School, he is going to say you have to have a Tab, you get someone from the Regiment and they are going to say time in Bat along with a Tab is op tempo permits. Which is where I stand.

Certainly one should see how us civilians could be getting things confused. So you are a Ranger whether you make the grade or not but if in SEAL training and you don't make the grade you are not a SEAL. It all gets hard to follow after a while. The more time goes by the more jumbled it gets with more and more.
Thanks again to all that replies. I think we need to stop assuming and reading things into each others statements and make amends when we do. I'll work on that also.


STR

 

[Horned Toad]

For info purposes for STR and other this is actually pretty close


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/75th_Ranger_Regiment_(United_States)


As far as Marines are concerned your on your own because that out of my lane

 

[Trace Rinaldi]

I see quite a few makers hanging thier coat of ability on the rack of military experience. Are they all to be investigated too? Or just when they start getting on the covers of magazines all the time?
To me its like asking advice from an average cop about guns. Just because they are cops doesnt mean they know $hit about guns.

I know Mick and Duane pretty well. I have never known them to BS people at shows, and regail them with War Stories and tell them how they been there done that, and thats why you should buy thier wares. In fact its quite the opposite, and they dont make any claims to be the last word in knives ever.
Either the knives work or they dont, it dont matter if John Rambo made it or John Doe to me.

That being said I'm sure glad there isnt some website out there that puts mistakes, and records of job history, and performance of EVERYONE out there for the world to see.
.

I doubt anyone would would be throwing hot water in igloo's then.

 

[Horned Toad]

So you are a Ranger whether you make the grade or not but if in SEAL training and you don't make the grade you are not a SEAL.

STR

Not quite
Ranger School = Tab = Ranger qualified. Its a school its under TRADOC
RIP get you in the door to the Regiment, but you have to prove you can stay, the nature and length of time is what matters.

SEALs IIRC actually have to get to a Team and pass some stuff there not just pass BUDS to be considered a SEAL


Ya its confusing

 

[STR]

I see quite a few makers hanging thier coat of ability on the rack of military experience. Are they all to be investigated too? Or just when they start getting on the covers of magazines all the time?

Another exampe of assuming that is what is going on. Your generalization helps nothing Trace. Its not even close to why these questions are being asked here about the claims made. When someon is said to have a confirmed kill count or any such thing or as the case may be elects to know of friends backing up such claims that they know of as being false, or if someone goes into making posts about past military training like we have seen at the links provided then yeah, I'd say the people doing that should fully expect to prove it if asked to do so. Again, if they are legit, then this should not be a problem.

The more defensive people get the more guilty they look and this can be seen in daily life in your own children. Its not rocket science. If the claims are legit there is no reason to get all defensive and offended.

STR

 

[stabman]

That being said I'm sure glad there isnt some website out there that puts mistakes, and records of job history, and performance of EVERYONE out there for the world to see.

Oh come on. If I got a job by lying on my resume, it would be fair grounds for firing me, no matter how well I did the job. My competence would not be the issue when the LIES were the topic of discussion.
Are the knives good? Sure, although I'd argue about $150 overpriced.
Do I care if the knife was designed by some super-soldier? No.
But come on, lies are lies, and it's time for Strider knives to just ignore the whole fiasco, and become known for their knives alone.
Maybe THAT'S why they aren't replying to this, to let the heat die down and get on with the business of selling knives.
In which case, their "fans" aren't hepling them by prolonging the debate.