Strider vs. Manix

[fulloflead]

ER's are not liner locks, they are lockbacks.

That was my point. I suggested the ERs. Then he told me he didn't like liner locks.

.

 

[oldnbusted]

the lock type used is problematic to spine whacks and torques. I easily broke the lock on a Strider/Buck doing work which would not have effected a Manix.

Is this specific to Buck/Striders? If not, does the H.L.S. improve things?
Is it common behaviour for the SNG for example? Most people seem to trust their Striders very much, i find it hard to believe they could be that frail.

Can anyone repost the Strider vs Extrema Ratio test, it was on here a couple of weeks ago i think.

Having said all this, i read a quote where someone pointed out that a lock was merely something someone added to a slipjoint they had to make things a bit safer, in the end, if you are doing something that might make a lock fail, get a FB.

 

[marauder220]

I've had the same experience recently, i.e. the Manix lock failure. Odd occurance, but it did fail the spine whack test.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Is this specific to Buck/Striders?

No, it is common to liners/integrals in general, I have seen it on a small Sebenza as well for example.

i read a quote where someone pointed out that a lock was merely something someone added to a slipjoint they had to make things a bit safer, in the end, if you are doing something that might make a lock fail, get a FB.

Or get another folder which doens't have an incoherent design between the blade and lock.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

On the other hand, I'd argue that the grips are neither secure nor comfortable.

I don't find them secure or comfortable either, and in general I don't think these aspects need to be at odd with each other in a knife, they in general are actually complementary.

-Cliff

 

[benchmademan]

This is of no functional use considering the lock type used is problematic to spine whacks and torques. I easily broke the lock on a Strider/Buck doing work which would not have effected a Manix. Mick Strider noted this was the expected behavior. I asked him directly if the customs would fare any better. No comment. I asked him if the customs would handle what the Chinook II did. No comment. The Striders would be better in lateral prying as long as there were no twists or blade impacts, for most other uses the Manix is easily a superior knife. Better cutting profile, handle ergonomics, much more secure lock, etc. .-Cliff

do you really expect to get mick's ear? you openly bash his knives any chance you get... in this case "no comment" does not assert that you are right.

most SnG or SMF owners would like to disagree with your assertion that they wouldn't stand up to spine whack or torque tests. but then again... most of those people think tests like that are a waste of time as they don't really apply to average knife use. i'm certainly one of those.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

[spine whack or torque tests]

...most of those people think tests like that are a waste of time as they don't really apply to average knife use.

The knife is constantly promoted for being tough and rugged, yet simple spine whacks and torques don't apply. It isn't as if the knife is designed to be a light gentleman folder. There are also lots of folders which can take spine whacks and torques trivially and thus they have a much wider scope of work than knives that can't.

-Cliff

 

[Artfully Martial]

All the lockback failures of overbuilt knives is starting to concern me, as I personally have only had failure on a lockback (a cheap lockback, not a good one like a Spyderco). I had assumed to trust Spyderco or another good brand, but I may have to reconsider. Worse yet, it's difficult to test this in the store. I can see the lockup of most others before I buy it...

I still don't trust lockbacks. Folks, go run the standard mill of lock testing on your lockbacks and report back.

 

[marauder220]

Artfully Martial,
I posted the testing I did on my Manix over in the Spyderco Forum here. It didn't happen all the time, but it did happen. The Manix in question hadn't been abused either, just used for normal cutting. The lock was clean as well. I'm at a loss for what would cause it, unless the lock just "bounces" out of engagement? I only have this one Manix, however a friend owns 2 and I'll see if he is up to testing them as well. I have a couple other lockbacks that I'll test later this evening (an Endure and CS Voyager). For right now I'm back to the Axis lock again.

 

[Carl64]

most SnG or SMF owners would like to disagree with your assertion that they wouldn't stand up to spine whack or torque tests. but then again... most of those people think tests like that are a waste of time as they don't really apply to average knife use.

If most of them don't do such tests, their opinion on whether they would fail such a test isn't really worth anything, is it?

And if they don't do those tests because they are a waste of time, they must not think those tests reflect the quality/useability of the knife and we therefore shouldn't assume they would be sure the knife would pass the test. They would logically be indifferent.

If you pay $500 for a super hefty knife clearly intended to be a piece of combat equipment, I would expect full-force stabbing to be something it should do, and a whack test seems like a reasonable quick way to see if a sudden impact will make the lock fail.

 

[Carl64]

All the lockback failures of overbuilt knives is starting to concern me, as I personally have only had failure on a lockback (a cheap lockback, not a good one like a Spyderco). I had assumed to trust Spyderco or another good brand, but I may have to reconsider. Worse yet, it's difficult to test this in the store. I can see the lockup of most others before I buy it...

I still don't trust lockbacks. Folks, go run the standard mill of lock testing on your lockbacks and report back.

I usually check the "wedge factor" of lockbacks. Just open the blade fully, put some mild closing pressure, and wiggle the lock bar up and down. Does the blade go up and down when you do this? If the lock surfaces are perfectly perpendicular to the direction of rotation (of both the blade and the lock), it won't. If it does, it means enough force could cause it to unlock.

The locking tooth on lockbacks has to be wedged a little to prevent blade play (or the notch it sets in could be, same effect), but a good one is made accurately enough that this is not noticable.

I assume other factors could cause failure, like handle flexing or a loose pivot. Also, whack tests are affected by the tester's strength and the weight of the handle. My new Buck 110 is so heavy I can imagine it failing while the titanium version may not. I don't yet have the guts to whack my nice shiny new 110, and the titanium model is too valuable now for any kind of test.

 

[benchmademan]

If most of them don't do such tests, their opinion on whether they would fail such a test isn't really worth anything, is it?

And if they don't do those tests because they are a waste of time, they must not think those tests reflect the quality/useability of the knife and we therefore shouldn't assume they would be sure the knife would pass the test. They would logically be indifferent.

If you pay $500 for a super hefty knife clearly intended to be a piece of combat equipment, I would expect full-force stabbing to be something it should do, and a whack test seems like a reasonable quick way to see if a sudden impact will make the lock fail.

i think that my SnG could withstand a hundreds of pounds of lateral force (prying) but i'm not gonna stick it in a vice and find out? why? becuase i don't want unessicary marks on my strider. it's got scratches from use but ZERO from 'worst-case-scenario' testing. do i think it could perform in battle? yes. why? because the gov't bought them for their SOCOM team. they use them. they are on every major battlefield in the world right now performing. i use mine to open envelopes, break down boxes and assist me in everyday chores.

but, if you still want to see pointless test results... check out any one of the various forums. i've read numerous tests and reviews of the various strider folders including one that was pummeled with a sledgehammer. try searching and see what you come up with. until then, we'll all hold our breath for mr. Stamp to perform his testing that finally prove his much-talked about weakness of Strider/Sebenza framlocks. (so far he's only pulled it off with a $20 kershaw).

for what it's worth, the Manix is awesome. i could just as easily be carrying it instead of the SnG. it just so happens that i like the SnG more. just personal opinion. it's great to compare and review various knife models. i guess i don't understand why Cliff and others feel the need to bash the Hyped model and defend the underdog everytime these debates arise. guess everyone has their reasons.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

they are on every major battlefield in the world right now performing.

So are basically the cheapest knives made, at best you can thus claim they are of the standard.

so far he's only pulled it off with a $20 kershaw

I also did it with a small Sebenza, and every other liner and integral I have handled, some take more torques than others.

-Cliff

 

[benchmademan]

I also did it with a small Sebenza, and every other liner and integral I have handled, some take more torques than others.
-Cliff

and the SnG?

 

[sak_collector]

I think the problems with ALL locks are peoples expectations. Locks are an extra safety device, period. I know that many knives these days are marketed as super strong, no-fail locks...thats just what it is, marketing. People buy knives, beat them into submission and therefore question the safety of using them.

Stop falling for marketing, there is simply no way a reasonable sized folder (as in one you can actually carry) can be as strong as a fixed blade. Locks are marketed how they are to sell knives, profit is the name of the game. Common sense will tell anybody, dont trust your fingers to a lock. Take it for what it is, an added safety feature but one that still requires the user to have at least a small amount of brains.

Take your favorite pistol that offers a safety, Ruger, Beretta or whatever. The safety on those guns are reliable, but no way in hell would I point a loaded one at myself and pull the trigger hoping the safety works this time.

Makers/companies have tried to market locks as ultra-strong to sell knives, now customers are expecting miracle locks for which companies are now realizing there is no way to do that 100% but they cannot come along now and say "locks cannot be considered cure-all for stupidity" or they are blasted for wimpy knives.

Need a pocket knife? Buy one and use as intended, need a fixed blade? Buy one, just dont expect one to completely replace the other.

 

[benchmademan]

well said. it's true.

 

[fulloflead]

I think the problems with ALL locks are peoples expectations. Locks are an extra safety device, period. I know that many knives these days are marketed as super strong, no-fail locks...thats just what it is, marketing. People buy knives, beat them into submission and therefore question the safety of using them.

Stop falling for marketing, there is simply no way a reasonable sized folder (as in one you can actually carry) can be as strong as a fixed blade. Locks are marketed how they are to sell knives, profit is the name of the game. Common sense will tell anybody, dont trust your fingers to a lock. Take it for what it is, an added safety feature but one that still requires the user to have at least a small amount of brains.

Take your favorite pistol that offers a safety, Ruger, Beretta or whatever. The safety on those guns are reliable, but no way in hell would I point a loaded one at myself and pull the trigger hoping the safety works this time.

Makers/companies have tried to market locks as ultra-strong to sell knives, now customers are expecting miracle locks for which companies are now realizing there is no way to do that 100% but they cannot come along now and say "locks cannot be considered cure-all for stupidity" or they are blasted for wimpy knives.

Need a pocket knife? Buy one and use as intended, need a fixed blade? Buy one, just dont expect one to completely replace the other.

Great post! :thumbup:
I could have the greatest lock in the world, but there's ALWAYS going to be that little voice in my head that says, "Watch it doesn't close on your fingers", that'll prevent me from doing anything stupid.

The Smith and Wesson 686 is strong enough to pry apart a shed and probably hammer all the nails in to reassemblt it. But I wouldn't do it.

 

[rover]

Well, another day, another load of BS from Cliff.

I will state yet again that you did not test a Stider folder Cliff. You tested a Buck Strider. You continue to bash a knife you've never tested every chance you get.

Get a life Cliff.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Locks are an extra safety device, period.

On some knives yes, on others they are there to expand the scope of work of the knife, the same reason that the blades are thicker with heavier grinds.

Stop falling for marketing, there is simply no way a reasonable sized folder (as in one you can actually carry) can be as strong as a fixed blade.

There are lots of folders stronger than the blade, in that it will crack off before the lock, so they are just as strong as a fixed blade would be if made to the same blade dimensions.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

I have issue with the following assertion by Benchmademan:

think that my SnG could withstand a hundreds of pounds of lateral force (prying) but i'm not gonna stick it in a vice and find out? why? becuase i don't want unessicary marks on my strider.

Are you saying that you believe you can clamp a short portiotion of the knife, and apply 100 pounds of force [in a direction perpendicular to the plane of the blade] evenly distributed along the handle without any failure? I'm not familiar with the particular knife you are talking about, but how thick and how long is the blade?