Strider vs. Manix

[Cliff Stamp]

Yes, I have used Buck/Strider, and dozens of other liners and integrals, some very high end like a Sebenza. Plus as well I have asked Mick directly if the customs didn't have the limitation of the production version, and as well could they be used for specific heavy duty tasks, and I asked him publically on the forums in a thread he was participating in and he declined to answer. So yes, I have little confidence in the ability of the knife when the maker won't support it publically, and I have seen the same problem over and over in many knives, and so have mnay others, and I have no interest in what is said in private about the abilities of the knives, Strider or anyone elses.

Are you saying that you believe you can clamp a short portiotion of the knife, and apply 100 pounds of force [in a direction perpendicular to the plane of the blade] evenly distributed along the handle without any failure?

This isn't difficult for the knife nor lock to stand, high end folders now have break points of torques in the 1000 in.lbs range, so they can take hundreds of pounds of force applied to the handle with the blade locked in place and not have anything break. The blade itself is *very* strong in the axis as you are loading it along its width, blades only tend to crack when you load them laterally through thier thickness.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

I believe the force we are concerned about is applied through the thickness/ lateral / long the "flat".

Yes, I realize that failure in the other direction is unlikely for respectable folders concerning the strength of the steel, handle, and lock design; Linerlocks are unlikely to buckle and and good lockbacks should not fail unless the pins are sheared or the handle gives.

 

[benchmademan]

Yes, I have used Buck/Strider, and dozens of other liners and integrals, some very high end like a Sebenza. Plus as well I have asked Mick directly if the customs didn't have the limitation of the production version, and as well could they be used for specific heavy duty tasks, and I asked him publically on the forums in a thread he was participating in and he declined to answer. So yes, I have little confidence in the ability of the knife when the maker won't support it publically, and I have seen the same problem over and over in many knives, and so have mnay others, and I have no interest in what is said in private about the abilities of the knives, Strider or anyone elses. -Cliff

no offense cliff, but outside of this forum, you and your tests are considered kind of a punchline to a joke. i can't speak for Mick but if i made knives and you posed the same question to me, i'd probably tell you to pound sand too. especially with the way you run around talking about his knives. it's not like you're an industry recognized expert. you're a knife hobbiest. he doesn't really owe you a statement. especially when you appear in every bladeforums strider-related post to point out inherent flaws with a knife you've never owned. if you want to go to a Strider dealer and buy a knife and test it on your own then you can feel free.

as i stated before... if you want Strider reviews or testing then you can find it all over the net. including some performed by the Strider guys themselves.

cliff - on a personal note... i've got no problem with you personally. it's just that somehow you have amassed some sort of following on this forum. there are people here that base thier opinions on your "reviews" and other comments. i'm asking you to be a little more responsible with that.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

I think the problems with ALL locks are peoples expectations. Locks are an extra safety device, period.

I have a different point of view. There's no question that someone who really wants to defeat a lock can find a way to do so. Apply enough pressure, and even if the lock doesn't go, the pins might pop or shear through the liners, etc. Obviously, it's unreasonable to expect a folder to be as strong at the pivot as a similarly-sized well-done fixed blade. If someone does a test on a locking knife that I feel is unreasonably hard, I don't pay attention to that test.

However, the reverse view as you seem to be expressing -- that locks are merely a safety device that can't be relied upon for anything -- appears to let knifemakers off the hook way too much. In even medium-duty work, much less heavier-duty work or defensive use, forces that can't be precisely controlled can be exerted on your knife. Ever read the stories of guys doing easy things like cutting cardboard or pruning branches and the lock releases itself? Does your view indicate that folders shouldn't be used for this type of thing, since the lock is merely an "extra" safety device, and presumeably you should be only using a folder when you can ensure all the forces exerted on the knife are precisely edge-to-spine (which is the only way the lock can be an extra safety device)? Or, as I claim, is your view merely letting manufacturers and designers of sub-par locks off the hook?

While it's possible to go overboard, the fact is, it's not too much to ask that a lock a medium-duty folder be able to handle some pretty good torquing and a light whack on the spine. Hell, that's the minimum it should be able to handle. And, while any manufacturer will make mistakes and let some shoddy ones through, you wil find that there are loads and loads of folding knives that in the main will take all this with flying colors -- which is good, because they've not just been marketed for this, but designed and built for it as well. No need to make excuses for those knives that can't cut it, or invent reasons as to why locks shouldn't be held accountable for actually locking ... just switch to one of the loads of knives that can handle the tests you need.

Joe

 

[runT1ME]

I don't know why everyone is bashing Cliff. I for one am greatful to have someone who has the knowledge, resources and time to do testing on knives the way he does.

None of us have all the information here to say "Kinfe X's lock is absolutely stronger then others 90% of the time", with the possible exception of Cliff, but as someone pointed out, he hasn't tested an SnG.

Not sure what the rest of you think, but I'd like to get to the bottom of this lock business, and find out if SnGs are actually wimpy little gentlemens folders, and if the spyderco manix HAS really been failing. Cliff, I'm more then happy to pitchin some money so you can destroy an SnG, if others are also willing to help out. You guys don't think Cliffs the man for the job? Then someone else step up and do an objective test on lock strength.

 

[ERdept]

Cliff has set up a standardized way of testing knives, since ther really is no standard, save a metal hardness rating (rockwell scale). Now we have a benchmark. To apply all knives to the same testing, even though we don't use those applications is very revealing.

Thanks for doing so. If you're going to bash anything, bash the logic or methodology, don't bash the man. Let's not get personal. We're all on the same side.

I have a Strider SMF, it's the toughest folder I have ever owned. I looked at the Spyderco and wiggled the blade and saw the lock and pivot and didn't buy it. Half as strong. You can make anything fail. That is true. The question is how long before failure do you want the item to perform.

Cliff

 

[Carl64]

I don't know why everyone is bashing Cliff.

It's not everyone, just a few. They do it because they don't understand the concept of testing the limits of something. I think some of them might be die-hard fans of a brand that didn't pass Cliff's test. It would be constructive to offer other methods for testing things, but the "how dare you test it at all or offer your opinion" attitude always shows through in the end.

Of course we don't point guns at our heads to test the safety, but the safety can be tested to see if it works without even having a loaded gun, and tests ARE done on guns that involve doing things you wouldn't do on purpose. I guess the IIHS is crazy too, because they crash cars to test for safety, even though you wouldn't do it with your own car on purpose, and they don't just settle on what the manufacturer said was safe enough.

 

[benchmademan]

Cliff has set up a standardized way of testing knives, since ther really is no standard, save a metal hardness rating (rockwell scale). Now we have a benchmark. To apply all knives to the same testing, even though we don't use those applications is very revealing.

Thanks for doing so. If you're going to bash anything, bash the logic or methodology, don't bash the man. Let's not get personal. We're all on the same side.

I have a Strider SMF, it's the toughest folder I have ever owned. I looked at the Spyderco and wiggled the blade and saw the lock and pivot and didn't buy it. Half as strong. You can make anything fail. That is true. The question is how long before failure do you want the item to perform.

Cliff

great post

 

[benchmademan]

It's not everyone, just a few. They do it because they don't understand the concept of testing the limits of something. I think some of them might be die-hard fans of a brand that didn't pass Cliff's test. It would be constructive to offer other methods for testing things, but the "how dare you test it at all or offer your opinion" attitude always shows through in the end.

Of course we don't point guns at our heads to test the safety, but the safety can be tested to see if it works without even having a loaded gun, and tests ARE done on guns that involve doing things you wouldn't do on purpose. I guess the IIHS is crazy too, because they crash cars to test for safety, even though you wouldn't do it with your own car on purpose, and they don't just settle on what the manufacturer said was safe enough.

have you read this thread yet? cliff has not tested the knife in question. that is why some of us "die-hard fans" are "bashing" him. i'm sure he appreciates your support but you might want to check out this thread first.

 

[Carl64]

have you read this thread yet? cliff has not tested the knife in question. that is why some of us "die-hard fans" are "bashing" him. i'm sure he appreciates your support but you might want to check out this thread first.

So are you suggesting he test the knife or not? It's clear enough what your attitude is about this. To be equally sarcastic, have you read your own posts?

 

[DaveH]

I think the strider fans should pony up some bucks to buy a knife for testing, by Cliff or a laboratory.

 

[Joe Talmadge]

I don't know why everyone is bashing Cliff.

Why do people switch from arguing a point to arguing ad hominem?

 

[kel_aa]

I directed a post toward you. Please make a response if you stand behind your particular assertion that you think

my SnG could withstand a hundreds of pounds of lateral force (prying) but i'm not gonna stick it in a vice and find out? why? becuase i don't want unessicary marks on my strider.

I don't have anything against the you, knife or any knife maker, but I think you misrepresent the qualities of this knife.

If anyone wishes to give some specificiations (length of blade, thickness of blade at say 1/4 or 1/2 inch from the tip, and the width at the distance), then some numbers can be calculated as to the quality of the steel required to perform at this level.

 

[benchmademan]

he can test it if he wants. i'll put it this way.. i'm not really anticipating his results.

 

[PerformanceFirst]

Cliff has set up a standardized way of testing knives, since ther really is no standard, save a metal hardness rating (rockwell scale). Now we have a benchmark. To apply all knives to the same testing, even though we don't use those applications is very revealing.

Thanks for doing so. If you're going to bash anything, bash the logic or methodology, don't bash the man. Let's not get personal. We're all on the same side.

I have a Strider SMF, it's the toughest folder I have ever owned. I looked at the Spyderco and wiggled the blade and saw the lock and pivot and didn't buy it. Half as strong. You can make anything fail. That is true. The question is how long before failure do you want the item to perform.

Cliff

Can you really say the Manix is half as strong just by looking at and holding one? IMO, the scientific method needs to be used before making any statements quantifying how strong a knife is. I don' t mean to bash you or anything in this post. You say yourself Cliff has created a standard for testing knives. I'm not familiar with his methods myself, but this seems like the logical way to do things. I would also like to know if these tests are just done once or with a large sample of knives. This could get cost prohibitive and I'm sure Cliff has other obligations besides running a knife lab, but this is necessary to ensure one knife isn't exceptionally good or bad. Just my two cents.

Edit: People are saying that Cliff's tests aren't reflective of real world conditions. I guess this is, at least to an extent, a difference of opinion.

 

[Artfully Martial]

If you want Cliff to drop the money for the overpriced knife, then you should establish with him first that you'll concede to whatever results he finds. It wouldn't do us any good for him to get the knife, test it, and if he hypothetically were to confirm the negative, then everyone just rejects his conclusions outright.

But you guys already OWN the knives that are so amazingly strong. We might not see eye to eye, but I don't think you're a liar. Make it easy on all of us and do my lock test scheme or Cliff's (preferably both!). If you don't trust his stuff, do mine. Mine is easy. And it shouldn't damage a tough knife if you follow the easy precautions I did. I feel my little tests, though not easily quantifiable, definitely exceed real world demands of a lock.

You've got nothing to worry about. My sub 50 dollar M16 handled it no prob (with LAWKS off). I mean, these Striders are supposed to be super tough right?

 

[benchmademan]

I directed a post toward you. Please make a response if you stand behind your particular assertion that you think

I don't have anything against the you, knife or any knife maker, but I think you misrepresent the qualities of this knife.

If anyone wishes to give some specificiations (length of blade, thickness of blade at say 1/4 or 1/2 inch from the tip, and the width at the distance), then some numbers can be calculated as to the quality of the steel required to perform at this level.

well.. it think you misrepresent the nature of my statement... wanna call it a draw?

 

[mike_mck2]

no offense cliff, but outside of this forum, you and your tests are considered kind of a punchline to a joke.

Where? And who, specifically, considers Cliff & his testing a joke?

It's obvious why people bash Cliff and his testing, and it's not because he's a joke. Whether you find his testing to be informative or not, it's 100% better than the usual "I love mine so buy one, you won't be disappointed", which is 95% of what is said in the "reviews" and "tell me what to buy" threads.

Or someone does some testing they think is really tough, but along comes Cliff to point out that either it's not particularly meaningful or a reminder that good technique and knowing what you are doing makes a major difference.

What you want to believe your knife is capable of is pointless and irrelevant if you really don't have any actual experience, other than opening some boxes and envelopes or some such, which is what most are doing here, if you read through some of the "what do you use your knife for" threads.

I have owned an SNG, and an a few AR's.
What Joe Talmadge said about the SNG is 100% correct, it's tapered in the wrong direction. That's just obvious.
The AR's I have owned were good knives, but way bigger than I had need of.
If I owned either, I would gladly send them to Cliff, as I lack the patience and understanding to do meaningful testing.

I have heard it said numerous times that "several knife makers won't post here because of Cliff". I think that's complete BS.

 

[oldnbusted]

I personally, appreciate the insight cliff brings to a discussion, as i do with many of you more experienced and knowledgeable than myself, that said, cliff can come across as very abrasive, which doesn't help, and when he has nothing good to say about a particular brand, i can appreciate a diehard fan being upset.

Cliff hasn't tested an SnG, which i find disconcerting considering the conclusions he seems to be drawing, and i have to admit that one mans word over the other tests i have seen would not necessarily convince me, but i would listen to the conclusions and consider them.

I am thinking about an SnG, and am always eager to hear what others have to say about them, but only the technical stuff, i think it looks gorgeous, and the unfortunately i won't be holding before i buy so i have to take my chances.

Cliff, i appreciate your insight and knowledge, and hope i didn't come across as insulting.



Just a thought for all though, when someone claimed his manix and chinook had failed, the spyderco fans labelled him a liar, yet a strider fan isn't allowed to do the same thing.

 

[Artfully Martial]

Aren't Cliff's opinions (not testing the Strider) just as valid as everyone else's? I mean...they haven't tested it either....no one has....no one knows....