Survival Gun of last resort.

[j williams]

Oh!!! hahaha I was like... Im sorry man.



Im curious of that too!!!!!

 

[kdstrick]

Hahaa!

No J, I'm not talking about anyone in particular. LOL

Just want to make sure a short barrel .22 can crack someone in the dome if needed.

Given the very low velocity due to the very short barrel, I do not think that the NAA in .22 LR would penetrate a skull.

I've seen the .22 LR fail to penetrate the skull of a large whitetail with a 3.5" bbl which allows for much more velocity than the NAA, due to the extra time for the powder to burn and build pressure.

Sorry guys... the NAA is a cool lil' gun... truly better than nothing... but just barely.

 

[MSgt]

If you are talking survival, one can be too minimalist. If I can not take a 12 ga with a variety of shells; yes it would be a .22LR, but whichever handgun [say a Ruger] I would want at least a 6" barrel. If I need to 'fill the pot', I want the accuracy to do it.

 

[koyote]

I can fit my savage .32 in a pocket, but that's not REALLY the point.

I'd suggest a .38special target grade revolver over a .357 for anyone not in REAL grizzly country or alaska, and even then.....but that's not the point either.

I prefer a .22 as a field gun for several reasons, and hate the instant backing into a corner of people who insist up and down that a 34% OSS rating in a 9 shot revolver just goes nowhere compared to a dinky little unaimable .380 that can't HIT anything at 30 yards. But that's not the point, either.

Quite simply, as I see the point of THIS thread, the goal is to carry a small projectile arm to take small game just in case, while wearing minimal gear/clothing for the woodswalk. My main theme is that I think the OP pistol isn't quite there. The longer barrel one with the adjustable sights, and I suppose with the folding grip, IS THERE. You can hunt with it. I don't see a physical capability to shoot well enough to count on any meat food with the 1 inch bbl pistol. And I mean physics, not the shooter.

If I was limited to that 1 incher or nothing, I'd honestly take nothing.

Add in self sefense, and I'd rather carry a dozen other pistols of similar size. I wouldn't turn it down if it HAD to be, though. But I would not hunt with it.

I would not want to try my hand at filling the pot with any of the small pistols I have owned. By this I mean the subcompacts.


I've been .... scolded if not flamed a bit in the past for suggesting the black widow and minimaster in 22lr as good small-as-usefully-possible woodsbumming or trail hiking guns. slow reload, underpowered self defense round, limited mag cap, not effective against the rampant overpopulated numbers of grizzlies.... and I will maintain that I think (and I have fired several very nice strings from the black widow, it's quite a piece compared to a .22 pocket pistol, and not really larger or much thicker) that this is the absolute minimum size for a minimalist survival gun.

If I lived in a place where walking around heeled was acceptable out in the woods, I'd make a serious point out of getting a .38 or .32long k frame target revolver or two. s inch barrels, but I might talk myself into 8. As it is, I have a .22 revolver that can do the job hunting, and that's what I got. When I did get it, I chose it over a makarov, over a ppk, and over a 'detective special' .32 revolver and I'm pretty happy with the decision.

But it won't fit in your pocket.

 

[koyote]

Absolute bottom of the barrel, last resort, doom and gloom has befallen us survival gun for me would be break action, single pump pistol like the RWS 5G that puts out 700FPS (Minimum). Rifle prefered but the title said "gun".

1000 rounds takes up almost no space.
Easily enough for birds or squirrel.
No need for CO2 cartridges or specific ammo.
accurate.
Pretty much maintenance free.

For food acquisition, I'd take it over the NAA.

I'm going to nitpick here, just because of some differences that are relevant- The rws 5G isn't an ANY pump gun, it's a break barrel springer. While this might not be important to everyone, I can carry a seal kit for my 1377 or 1322 taped inside the grip, but I can't carry a sela kit and a new spring. Pumpers have some advantages (I find they also are far less hold sensitive to shoot)

Second, that 700fps might be true with a lead free 4.5 grain match pellet, but it's going to drop to ~500 with a heavy hunting pellet like a crow magnum or a kodiak. even a gamo masterpoint is probably going to go along at 525-550. A 1377 remanufactured pistol with $80 of aftermarket parts/labor (tuned trigger, shimmed hammer, high performance breech and bolt) will push 600 with a hunting pellet. for less than half the price. Give me $265 to spend and I'll have a tricked out 14 inch match .22 pumper pushing 575 fps with big heavy .22 pellets and it won't be any bigger than the P5 (that's a BIG pistol). And that will reliably take avian or rodentia game at 40 yards.

I know that's not really part of this thread, sorry to hijack. I'm actually working on a 'minimum pump carbine' project right now using a 12 inch .22 barrel on a 1377 with a hollow post screw on stock that holds pellets and gear. BUt I'll post that on my own, when I have results

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Yeah I agree. In a situation where I can have a gun like that... I'm taking my Glock 32. 14 rounds and just about the same ballistics as a basic 357 Magnum. But again... I'm talking about small packable firepower. Packable in a small space. You need a holster and some sort of lugage for that weapon and an 100 rounds. You can carry the the mini with 100 rounds in your pocket and still have room for other stuff.

Well, your OP said:

So what do you consider a survival gun? Of course we'd all like to have a rifle with us but when you pack the bare minimum say... just enough to fit in a fanny pack or maybe like a maxpedition versipack... what kind of gun might you take along that is light, but useful. . . .The one I have is 22 magnum and has the little folding handle with pocket clip. That and a box of 50 rounds takes up nearly no space and is far better than nothing.

1.) I've carried that Ruger in a pants pocket a LOT.
2.) True, a 50 round box of .357 is about half the size of a brick of .22 LR, but fits the OP fanny pack or versipack just fine.
3.) It's more effective all the way around. In that 50 rounds, I can have .357, .38 Spl, and .357 shotshells -- plenty of versitility, plenty good enough for small game, etc.

No offense, but I think this is a bit too contrived of a scenario. You're going into the wilderness, with almost no gear, but want a gun and 50 rounds? Honestly, in that situation, unless you are using a Jumbo Versipack, I'd be more worried about how to carry water than if my .357 is too big. Sounds like you're narrowing things down to the point of asking "If you couldn't carry anything but an NAA mini, would an NAA mini be a good choice?"

The NAA minis just aren't a good choice for one reason: they are inaccurate as hell. They are an ear, nose & throat (places you put the muzzle up against before firing) specialist, not a survival hunting gun.
The NAA Minimaster is better, but now you've got a 4" barrel, and would be better off with a small frame kit gun or something.

Think of the mini as a 5-shot Derringer -- meant to be used when you can smell a bad guy's breath and don't have, or can't get to, anything else.

 

[desmobob]

Well, your OP said:



1.) I've carried that Ruger in a pants pocket a LOT.
2.) True, a 50 round box of .357 is about half the size of a brick of .22 LR, but fits the OP fanny pack or versipack just fine.
3.) It's more effective all the way around. In that 50 rounds, I can have .357, .38 Spl, and .357 shotshells -- plenty of versitility, plenty good enough for small game, etc.

No offense, but I think this is a bit too contrived of a scenario. You're going into the wilderness, with almost no gear, but want a gun and 50 rounds? Honestly, in that situation, unless you are using a Jumbo Versipack, I'd be more worried about how to carry water than if my .357 is too big. Sounds like you're narrowing things down to the point of asking "If you couldn't carry anything but an NAA mini, would an NAA mini be a good choice?"

The NAA minis just aren't a good choice for one reason: they are inaccurate as hell. They are an ear, nose & throat (places you put the muzzle up against before firing) specialist, not a survival hunting gun.
The NAA Minimaster is better, but now you've got a 4" barrel, and would be better off with a small frame kit gun or something.

Think of the mini as a 5-shot Derringer -- meant to be used when you can smell a bad guy's breath and don't have, or can't get to, anything else.

+1 on all of that. Well put.

Stay sharp,
desmobob

 

[koyote]

The NAA Minimaster is better, but now you've got a 4" barrel, and would be better off with a small frame kit gun or something.

I don't see that that follows. This may just be us butting heads because I don't carry primarily because of bad guys, and do feel that a .22 for self defense is minimally appropriate.

I feel like your main reason is self defense with an off the cuff "of course I can get game with my wundernine" type of attitude towards 40 yard precision shooting. I don't mean that as harsh as it probably sounds, and I know the pocket .357 isn't the same in foot pounds as a wundernine, but that leetle tiny barrel!

If it is just us butting heads, then there's nowhere to go, if it's not, then I don't see how a small frame kit is better than a minimaster. a .22 can reliably take a lot of game if you can shoot well, so it can't be simply a size issue, there has to be some accuracy or shooting quality involved.

 

[coote]

You guys are fortunate being in a place where you can argue over which handgun... we aren't allowed to possess them for carrying around down here in NZ. (Specially licenced collectors can keep them in a locked safe and use them under supervised conditions on special ranges).

So I'd just love to own any of the guns being talked about. :grumpy:

Nice to see there is a fan of the old .303 British Lee Enfield here. Most of the big game taken by myself and the generation before me in my family would have been taken with one of these and military ammo. And because I know the weapon so well, I would probably pick one of these if I had to just select one to depend on. Rugged, reliable, and very accurate. Just gotta be careful not to get 'rim behind rim' in the magazine if you need to fire rapidly.

A .22 rimfire is perfectly adequate, in my opinion, for keeping yourself in meat. Like somebody mentioned earlier, accuracy is more important than power. I have shot many small animals with a .22, and have also taken wild goats, wild hogs and one red deer. The deer dropped instantly with one shot to the head. And mostly this has been done using subsonic hollow cartridges (Winchester generally, but I used Peters for the deer). I have heard of .22 projectiles deflecting off the skulls of some animals in certain conditions, but I know for sure that they will regularly penetrate skulls and rib cavities.

For maximum penetration I would probably pick solid projectiles... more weight and less deformation.

Putting the bullet in the right spot is the most important thing. I do not recommend that anybody should use just a .22 for hunting bigger animals, but I do know that if it is all you have got you will still be able to keep up the meat supply.

I love the look of that little revolver at the beginning of this thread. And it would be a privilege to be able to legally own and use it.

 

[coote]

Here are some pics related to shooting larger animals with a .22 rimfire.

Here is the red deer:

Small hog taken with a suppressed Browning semi-auto.... probably shooting hollow Winchester subsonic:

And here is one of my favorite pics taken years ago. My buddy was walking behind me with his camera when this hog ran accross our path. The rifle is an Anschutz .22. Can't remember what sort of ammo, but in those days it was likely to have been high velocity hollow. Incidentally, this pig provided some of the worst, rankest pork I've ever tried to eat. The pig in the photo above was one of around 10 I shot with a .22 over a four month period on a neigbors farm. That pork was delicious.

 

[vjb.knife]

The light one on the bottom is what I bought to take backpacking. It saves weight but shooting it feels like catching a major league fastball without a glove. But it will stop most anything.

 

[estanaway]

I personally carry a S&W 638, 38 special +P. I usually have it loaded with hollow point ammo, but because it is a revolver you could load the first couple of chambers with bird shot, then the rest with hollow points. The bird shot will take small game at short range, while the hollow points will be handy for people or larger game. I don't think this is sufficient to stop a bear, or mountain lion but the noise may do some good.

I don't like the NAA-Mini's because they are hard to shoot and even harder to hit with, but a .22 is a great round to procure food in a survival situation. They can be used to take everything from snakes to deer. From the way I read the question, that is what the author was going to use his mini for, and to have that gun stored in a pocket in his pack for when his other gun runs out of ammo or in case he needs it, it might be just the ticket with enough practice I am sure that he could procure a few squirrels, rabbits or grouse.

Always remember the gun you have with you is the best gun for you at that time.

 

[sunshine]

Well I read the whole thread again...lot of good thoughts...but not convinced the NAA is worth more than a knife of similar size/weight in a survival event...or even a similar sized rock actually.

The only reasonable thing I heard about the NAA was a comment from the OP about it working well with gym shorts, and that is a valid use for this weapon I think...so if you are forced into a survival event and all you can wear is thin cotten shorts...then yeah...it's a great survival gun.

On the other hand..if you get to wear jeans..then a G26/Kahr/Airweight .38/etc., will all fit in the back pockets of Levi's...and 2 full cap mags fit nicely in the other back pocket...think i remember reading something like, "if all you had was what would fit in your pockets"...well then...I'd take a 26 with 2 17 mags, and a good folder over the NAA and 50 rounds.

If Glock would make a 5.7x28 or .22 Mag on the 26 frame, I'd buy two!

 

[STAGE 2]

Nice to see there is a fan of the old .303 British Lee Enfield here. Most of the big game taken by myself and the generation before me in my family would have been taken with one of these and military ammo. And because I know the weapon so well, I would probably pick one of these if I had to just select one to depend on. Rugged, reliable, and very accurate. Just gotta be careful not to get 'rim behind rim' in the magazine if you need to fire rapidly.

When the limeys get it right, they get it right. I have three, two of which are still new in the cosmoline, and wouldn't trade them for anything. Firepower, capacity, stoopid smooth bolt and bombproof.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

I don't see that that follows. This may just be us butting heads because I don't carry primarily because of bad guys, and do feel that a .22 for self defense is minimally appropriate.

I'm not talking about carrying because of bad guys, but keeping it in the vein of the OP -- wilderness. We will butt heads if you want to talk self defense and say a .22 is appropriate. Too many cases where is absolutely was not. We'll also butt heads if you think bird shot in a shotgun is appropriate, for the same reason. But since this isn't a SD thread. . .

I feel like your main reason is self defense with an off the cuff "of course I can get game with my wundernine" type of attitude towards 40 yard precision shooting. I don't mean that as harsh as it probably sounds, and I know the pocket .357 isn't the same in foot pounds as a wundernine, but that leetle tiny barrel!

No, my main reason is that it CLEANLY takes bigger animals, like I stated. I've seen more people fark up the legendary "head shot on a deer or hog" than make it. Also note almost ALL of the anecdotal stories of such shots are with .22 RIFLES, not pistols, and out of the scope of this thread.

Furthermore, with that particular pistol, I can routinely make 2" groups at 10 yards and 4" groups at 25 yards. I wouldn't bother shooting further than that. So it's fine for small game to 10 yards, and plenty for large game to 25 yards. Beauty of the .357 is it can be loaded with .38s for smaller game. Squirrels can be taken with the shot shells. Again, as stated before, the CCI shot shells work better from short barrels as the shot cannister doesn't get spun up by the rifling as much. With a long barrel, the pattern becomes a donut.

If it is just us butting heads, then there's nowhere to go, if it's not, then I don't see how a small frame kit is better than a minimaster. a .22 can reliably take a lot of game if you can shoot well, so it can't be simply a size issue, there has to be some accuracy or shooting quality involved.

AFAIK, the kit guns are .22s. I'm not saying a .22 can't serve for hunting small game well enough. I'm saying the NAA minis are horribly inaccurate, and were not made for hunting. They were made to stuff up someone's nose and pull the trigger. With the 4" barrel of the Minimaster, I'm saying you're better off with a somewhat larger frame gun that affords a better grip, better sights and more control with the same barrel length.

Not that I don't like .22 pistols, either. One of my favorite guns is a Ruger Single Six with a 6.5" barrel. However, it IS larger than the SP-101, thus doesn't fit the criteria of the thread. Also I don't go out with it as my only gun. I will carry a larger bore handgun or rifle with me. The reason is self defense, but not so much against bad guys. I live in a swamp. Finding medium-sized boar (250+ pounds) and alligators is common. If you're up high and shooting straight down into the head, a .22 will work. If you're facing one down, not so much. The brains on both are small and hard to hit at distance when they are stationary, much less going balls-to-the-wall towards you. A .22 will not go through the chest plate of a boar, and will often glance off the very sloped, thick skull, just pissing it off more. The chitinous plates on a gator can make a .22 ineffective as well. Can they be taken with .22s? Yes. but almost always from high with a downward shot to the head, and from a .22 rifle.

 

[koyote]

gators and boar are a fine reason. I won't argue that at all. I also can't comment on head shots on larger game with a .22 as I haven't done it. I feel I could make it with my revolver, which isn't a "thread qualifier" as it's a full size frame 6inch barrel.

I thought the kit guns had other calibers. And so many people spend so much time EVERY time there's a thread involving a .22 saying that it's the worst caliber for ANY situation ever that we all tend to get a bit polarized.

What you seem to be saying is that the NAA frame itself cannot handle accuracy. My replacement for the OP 1 inch barrel with a 4 inch barrel and real sights doesn't do it for you, either. So it's not the 1 inch barrel. The problem I'm having is that I've fired longer barrel NAA variants and haven't seen this fundamental inaccuracy. It's still WAY smaller than any 8 shot .22 revolver, for example.


Almost every answer to the OP's gun has been a combat oriented larger caliber revolver or pocket auto that doesn't give me warm fuzzies for mid range accuracy. 10 yard shots on small game are pretty easy where I live, but get much rarer once you get out of the agricultural valley. I imagine they'd be fairly common down in the swamps, too. But I like the OP planning on 30 yard shots. Just don't think it's doable with the 1 inch barrel.

 

[runningboar]

Almost every answer to the OP's gun has been a combat oriented larger caliber revolver or pocket auto that doesn't give me warm fuzzies for mid range accuracy. 10 yard shots on small game are pretty easy where I live, but get much rarer once you get out of the agricultural valley. I imagine they'd be fairly common down in the swamps, too. But I like the OP planning on 30 yard shots. Just don't think it's doable with the 1 inch barrel.

The OP mentioned self defense and 30 yard shots and that is the reason most people have been so negative about the NAA. The pistol pictured is the one that rides in my pack more than any other, yes I know it is purple. And this is the best picture I have and don't feel like taking another one this morning.

It is a 22 with a polymer frame and sleeved aluminum upper, it is very light and very accurate. I think that the 22 is the perfect woods gun, however when you mention self defense, it is a different story and falls into the same realm as a knife, club or a brick. If it is all I have I will definitely use it but would much rather have something else.

My only problem with the NAA minis is that in the several I have owned, handled, shot I have never seen one that I thought had anything close to hunting accuracy, at any range, much less 30 yards. Chris

Edit: the deep concealment does not wash with me either, where in North America are you going to get in a wilderness survival situation where deep concealment is a real issue. My 22/45 rides very comfortably in the water bladder compartment of a camelback, which fits right in to a wilderness setting and is comfortable to carry. Chris

 

[PrimitiveMan]

Running Boar,

Where in NA would you need deep concealment?

Wisconsin and Illinois have NO provision for CCW. Many "Shall Issue" states such as NY, Maine, NJ are virtually the smae because they are restricted to ex LEO's only. Many States also require you to be a resident of that state, so while you may be able to carry in your own state, don't go on vacation.

VT and Alaska are the only 2 states with NO CCW restriction.

I am NOT advocating anyone do anything illegal, just letting you know the lay of the land.

 

[Loosearrow]

I have considered the mini NAA min revolver but a quick reload is a no for me. I do have a beretta 21A I can carry with a spare mag that reloads quickly and is double action. I have learned to shoot this rather well at close distances. I like the mark II very accurate in my hands and I have shot lots of game with it. Very confident with what I can do. For self defense or larger game, a S&W model 65 stainless in 357 3 inch barrel works for me. My favorite survival gun is a Savage Camper 22 long rifle over a cylinder bore 20 guage. Got the shotgun for slugs, buck shot etc. Still for closer range due to one set of sights for both barrels. It also has a sliding buttplate that holds 10 22 rounds and a few shotgun shells. I use this space for a matches etc. This gun breaks down quickly and is easy to pack. I also have a 223/20 guage with a holosite on it. I have always said with a 22 I can get anything I need or want. Been doing this for a long time. They say beware of the man that just has one gun, he may know how to use it. The more bush time you spend with that one gun the more confidence you will have in your chosen piece of equipment. The rest of the skill curve is made up knowing your game. You can get very close to your game if you know what your are doing. Want to get good? Hunt squirrels, aim small, miss small, shoot at irregular shapes versus targets. The only thing round out there is the eye. Want to know your game and get close? Hunt with a bow. Squirrels to bear. In the beginning the Indians had the fastest reload. Just a rant after this most excellent post.

 

[Loosearrow]

Here are some pics related to shooting larger animals with a .22 rimfire.

Here is the red deer:

Small hog taken with a suppressed Browning semi-auto.... probably shooting hollow Winchester subsonic:

And here is one of my favorite pics taken years ago. My buddy was walking behind me with his camera when this hog ran accross our path. The rifle is an Anschutz .22. Can't remember what sort of ammo, but in those days it was likely to have been high velocity hollow. Incidentally, this pig provided some of the worst, rankest pork I've ever tried to eat. The pig in the photo above was one of around 10 I shot with a .22 over a four month period on a neigbors farm. That pork was delicious.

I am very impressed with your skill level with the 22. Do you hunt with it due to some regulations where you live?